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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I haven't seen this since the CBS Masters Golf tournament, but it seems to me I'm seeing some kind of EE on the last 2 HD movies I've seen on Showtime. Particularly tonight with Dr. T and, to a lesser degree last night with Return To Me, there appears to be some type of EE going on. I've never seen this on an HD movie before and only previously with a couple of CBS HD sports shows. You don't see it with most of the shots but some (particularly outdoor shots with high contrast) it is evident. The presentations are still nice, but I wonder why there's a need for this? Looking at A Knight's Tale at the same time, there was no evidence of EE. Anyone else notice this (and PLEASE PLEASE, no Showtime vs HBO flames, this is merely an observation)?
 

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Probably not EE. Are you sure they were not upconverts instead of true HD? Upconverts have inherent artifacts that are visable from time to time and maybe you are confusing them with EE?
 

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EE = edge enhancement. And this forum is the only place I've ever seen this term used to decsribe what the rest of the world calls "image enhancement." It refers to a combination of high-frequency video peaking and sometimes digital noise reduction.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Savagenone,

The listings showed them as HD and the detail that was present would have me believing it could only have been HD. The effect was very similar to EE in that you could see a white outline to the right of objects or people in high contrast situations. In HD I've only seen that effect with a few sporting events on CBS (particularly the Masters).


baimo,

You didn't disappoint. I knew there would be someone who just couldn't handle a legitimate question that they would construe as a flame.
 

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Quote:
David McRoy clouded the issue by saying:
EE = edge enhancement. And this forum is the only place I've ever seen this term used to decsribe what the rest of the world calls "image enhancement." It refers to a combination of high-frequency video peaking and sometimes digital noise reduction.
I have seen the term Edge Enhancement used on many DVD and HDTV sites.


And if it were high frequency video peaking, that would be one thing. The problem is, it's LOW frequency video peaking unbecoming of HD and DVD. Basically, they are using the type of settings you'd use to artificially sharpen VHS, and then oddly applying it to DVDs or HDTV programming.


An excellent example is the Fox Widescreen presentation of the Super Bowl
http://www.feldoncentral.com/hdtv/FOXSuperbowl.jpg


and the CBS presentation of the US Open:
http://www.feldoncentral.com/hdtv/CB...n-2001-540.jpg


In both cases, there are white lines on a green background, and out of nowhere there are black borders and shadows around them. This is totally unnecessary "image enhancement" as you call it, or Edge Enhancement which is tailored for VHS but being used on DVD or HD content.


An excellent website on the topic of Edge Enhancement can be found here:
http://home.t-online.de/home/bjoern....TPM/TPM_01.htm


In particular, that website covers the awful transfer of The Phantom Menace to DVD, which had totally unnecessary very low frequency Edge Enhancement applied to the picture. DVD is of a high enough quality that NO Edge Enhancement should be necessary.

http://home.t-online.de/home/bjoern....TPM/09b_c1.jpg

for example. The black halos around the image at the top are totally unnecessary and ruin the picture.
 

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Okay, I'll admit to tuning in Dr. T...believe it was an instance of LCD (lowest common denominator).:) But could only stand so much and had to switch away.


But can't recall seeing any EE. I get Showtime via Time Warner Cable in NYC, a 2000HD cable converter, and my Philips 64-in. RPTV's component inputs. Know folks that are getting EE with HDTV don't want to read me saying I don't see it at all with HDTV on my system...so I won't say it.


Wasn't intensely scrutinizing what, for me, would be the obvious sources within Dr. T, such as the golf course scenes. That's where I notice EE most frequently with non-HDTV--either with NTSC composite cable-converter outputs, or S-video outputs. Flagpoles 'ring' with black silhouettes, golfer's dark clothing has ghostly outlines, golf balls have black rings around them, and grass blades within a certain focal plane look like dandelion stems. Broadcast engineer Lee Wood gave a good technical explanation of EE in this thread . -- John
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
John,

One of the reasons you may not be seeing EE, is because your cable system may be attenuating some of the detail or you may not have specifically looked for it. I've heard some pretty nasty things about Time Warner and what happened to their PQ when they switched from 8VSB to QAM. Obviously, in some sets, one could legitimately say that what is thought to be EE is actually SVM (John, if you recall, our sets are fairly similar). However, if that were the case, you would see it virtually all the time on those sets. The reason I singled these 2 movies out was because I can't recall ever seeing EE on an HD movie. Almost everyone that's seen the CBS Masters tournament saw EE. It was inherent in the broadcast and certainly not a function of anyone's TV.


Have you noticed a deterioration since TW switched to QAM?
 

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Interesting theory, Ken. Hope one of these days the mystery will be solved. Didn't get the impression most saw EE with recent HDTV sports broadcasts, just that some did here. Those that didn't may not have posted. There's a slight misunderstanding about TWC switching to QAM. While they carried HBO and CBS as 8-VSB for several years, dropping HBO last summer, they've used 256 QAM for HDTV ever since they began issuing 2000HD cable converters. These converters do mask some fine details when A-Bed against 8-VSB. But, after making this comparison last summer and posting details here, don't really feel the 2000HD masks that much detail. Also, I still get CBS HDTV as 8-VSB via cable or OTA. You might be right on this, but my own working theory is that it's related to overall HDTV set design and perhaps adjustment. If so, perhaps someone will stumble across an IEEE paper one of these days--or a HDTV set designer will weigh in. -- John
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
John,

I would agree with you on set design if I didn't have my own experience to fall back on. As I mentioned, I've never seen EE in any HD movie prior to the two I've mentioned (and I've seen a ton). I never see EE on any sporting event on HDNet, never. The only time I've ever seen EE in HD sports is on the CBS presentation of the Masters and to a far lesser degree, the U.S. Open tennis. CBS has had other sporting events in HD that were pristine (no EE). Someone had shown screenshots from the Masters and it looked exactly like I saw it. There was definitely something being added to the broadcast. The individual posting also indicated he almost never saw EE in HD on his equipment except for these rare instances. In my mind that totally eliminates the TV as the cause of the problem.


John, keep in mind that it's a known fact that this approach is used by the movie studios to "enhance" PQ on smaller TVs and it's now been reported by Widescreen Review that one of the soon to be released HD D-Theater movies has the dreaded EE. So we know for a fact that this is an approach used by studios and broadcasters. Again, if it's an issue with the individual HDTV, it would show up virtually all the time (and thankfully it's a rarity). Well, you get the drift, and I'm sorry for being repetitious! :)
 

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Wonder, to speculate a bit, if individual station (or other source) HDTV processing might be tied in to EE visibility in some way? Someone mentioned here that WCBS-DT in NYC uses Snell and Wilcox gear for 1080i upconversion. A summary of this S&W gear points out: "The upconvertors also provide aspect ratio conversion and edge enhancement control." Upconversion from 480i to 1080i isn't the same thing as 1080i ATSC encoding and broadcasting at each station, although perhaps each station's encoder can influence image characteristics.


Wish we had some AVS handy-dandy "HDTV Polling and ZIP Code Correlator" server software operating (proposed before). Those seeing EE--or any glitch--would indicate the severity with a few mouse clicks. Viewer zip codes and equipment would be prestored. Statistical software would analyze the data and plot results on a map. Suspect my Apple II computer, buried away in a closet, could handle such a task. -- John
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason
Wonder, to speculate a bit, if individual station (or other source) HDTV processing might be tied in to EE visibility in some way?
John,

Again, I think the operative word is "consistency". I would agree with your theory 100% if each station, channel, cable system etc. showed consistency. If you saw EE on CBS for example, you'd ALWAYS see it. However, the reality is that CBS can show program after program with NO EE and then all of a sudden there is a Masters broadcast with EE. Same thing is true with Showtime HD. I've seen movies without EE and a couple with. Same network, same equipment, different results from time to time. Now, I've NEVER seen EE on HDNet. I suspect they're more careful and understand HD better than most. I wonder, in the case of CBS, if transmitting from a remote location doesn't somehow make EE or something that looks like EE more possible. Perhaps relaying the signal does something either intentional or unintentional. Who knows?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross


Again, I think the operative word is "consistency". I would agree with your theory 100% if each station, channel, cable system etc. showed consistency.
Perhaps, but with so much equipment and so many hands involved, it may be mind-numbingly complex, too. Something a glitch/zip code/correlator (above) might sort out. :) A few Masters back I believe someone who seemed to know pointed out here that HDTV cameras, like others, have edge-enhancement controls. Lots of camera operators. Then there are a fair number of HDTV mobile vans with more equipment, more operators, and more EE-tweaking possibilities. What if one of these operators is nursing a hangover from the night before? Then, after the satellite uplinks/downlinks, there are folks at all those stations processing the signal. What if someone left an edge-enhancement pot or its equivalent on something like this Snell & Wilcox equipment , or its equivalent, at an erroneous setting at the final ATSC-encode stage? Or perhaps an engineer just likes images with more 'punch'. A slightly different signal path could be described for a DBS movie transmission. Then don't forget all the variations in home HDTV receivers. Perhaps some owners of model XX1 think they've shut off SVM but haven't completely. Perhaps a designer for model XX2, another brand, used to design military systems and knew that ferrite beads at certain circuit points would help squelch too-rapid signal transitions, perhaps the equivalent of having SVM full on. -- John
 

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Ken,


What type of display do you have? My Mitsubishi had it's own built in edge-enhancement (in addition to SVM) that had to be disabled by reprogramming the EPROM. My picture is great now and I have never noticed any enhancement on Showtime HD.
 
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