I am on the pre-buy list for the Panamorph, but have not received it yet. I believe I got it at the $1095 price plus shipping. I noticed recently that the price was something like $1550 as of late August and it is supposed to go to $1950 or something. Anyway, I am thinking of not taking delivery, as I might want to put the money towards a Rock+. But I am wondering if, instead of getting a refund from cygnus, I should (1) take delivery of the Panny and try to sell it, or (2) try to sell my "spot" to someone. Does anybody have an idea whether there is a decent market for the Panny and whether it would be "worth it" (i.e., I'm not interested in making $50, but if I could make a few hundred and someone else save a few hundred, it would be worth the hassle. Also, does anybody know how I would sell my "spot" (I seem to recall previous posts by people offering to do this).
Is there a market for Panamorph pre-buy spots?
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I have a pre buy spot (same price point as you) that I have been advertising and the odd thing is the longer it doesn't sell for the more valuable it will get... Obviously the nearer it gets to actually shipping and as the price keeps rising both these things are a factor. The flipside is it hasn't sold yet and I don't know of any pre buy's that have gone for more than $1100.
You could also say it this way.. Cygnus expect to sell some units at this $1995 price point or they will loose money on the project. If just one person wishes to buy a Pannie now you have a buyer. They save 25% and get immediate delivery with exactly the same situation as it was sold directly to them, it seems like a no brainer. The question is how many 2k Pannies are being bought ???
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You could also say it this way.. Cygnus expect to sell some units at this $1995 price point or they will loose money on the project. If just one person wishes to buy a Pannie now you have a buyer. They save 25% and get immediate delivery with exactly the same situation as it was sold directly to them, it seems like a no brainer. The question is how many 2k Pannies are being bought ???
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Phat Phreddy
No matter what it takes to make a product in research, labor and materials it's value to the consumer will still be limited to its perceived or intrinsic value. How many people have a projector they want to invest $2000 on for an add on device. My guess is not too many. Many people would rather put that money into a new projector and sell their old one. Personally I would not pay more than $800 for this lens.
Lenny Eckian
No matter what it takes to make a product in research, labor and materials it's value to the consumer will still be limited to its perceived or intrinsic value. How many people have a projector they want to invest $2000 on for an add on device. My guess is not too many. Many people would rather put that money into a new projector and sell their old one. Personally I would not pay more than $800 for this lens.
Lenny Eckian
Another thing that's keeping me for buying a Panamorph is unproven durability. It's oil filled design may not be durable. How many oil-filled compass as leaked, evaporated, or turn yellow over time especially when exposed to heat (hold your hand in front of the projector beam and see how hot it gets). This possibility, variable compatibility with different projectors, small size company of Cygnus (may go under before orders filled), poor customer support (that's why so many people are angry with Cygnus), poor production promptness (over 1.5 year wait for most), and questionable quality control (some has bubbles, some has distortions, some has leaks, etc.) I also agree with Leckian in that if I was to buy a $2K projector and add a 2K lens, I'd rather get a new 16:9 panel 4K projector with newer technology, more features, better warranty, newer bulb, better cool factor, and easier setup (Panamorph is not plug and play, more like plug and pray). Of course there are fanatics who'd spend any amount of money and lover to tinker rather than watching a movie who may enjoy the Panamorph. These are just my opinions and not facts.
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Huey ;-]
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Huey ;-]
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If I had a $10,000 projector, then a $2000 lens might appeal to me. But since I only paid 1800 for my lt150, I can't see spending *more* than that on the lens.
Realistically, I would pay about $500 for this lens. It may be worth a lot more, but not to *me*.
And frankly, at this point, the only way I would buy a panamorph (even at 500) is if I could buy it in person, as in hand $500 to someone, and they hand me the panamorph. And that would be after seeing it work with my projector first.
No way would I buy a pre-buy spot that may never be fulfilled, the panamorph might have an oil leak, might not work with my projector. And assuming it worked, how would I ever get service if I needed it? No phone number for Cygnus, they don't answer their email, etc.
$500 would be a huge amount of money to gamble on this company. $2000 is completely INSANE.
Realistically, I would pay about $500 for this lens. It may be worth a lot more, but not to *me*.
And frankly, at this point, the only way I would buy a panamorph (even at 500) is if I could buy it in person, as in hand $500 to someone, and they hand me the panamorph. And that would be after seeing it work with my projector first.
No way would I buy a pre-buy spot that may never be fulfilled, the panamorph might have an oil leak, might not work with my projector. And assuming it worked, how would I ever get service if I needed it? No phone number for Cygnus, they don't answer their email, etc.
$500 would be a huge amount of money to gamble on this company. $2000 is completely INSANE.
A few points...
1 . The brightest 16:9 image is a 4:3 projector with a panamorph. The new, 16:9 panels cannot come close in terms of brightness.
2. Stewart is now the exclusive distributor of Panamorphs. The retail is $1995 and they will be sold through authorized Stewart dealers.
3. Don Stewart sets the standard for customer service in our industry. He is a great businessman, and also a really good guy. If there is a problem with his product in the future, he will make it right. No ifs ands or buts about it.
4. The product works great, and the difference pre and post panamorph is unbelievable.
5. I am still waiting for one for my showroom....
1 . The brightest 16:9 image is a 4:3 projector with a panamorph. The new, 16:9 panels cannot come close in terms of brightness.
2. Stewart is now the exclusive distributor of Panamorphs. The retail is $1995 and they will be sold through authorized Stewart dealers.
3. Don Stewart sets the standard for customer service in our industry. He is a great businessman, and also a really good guy. If there is a problem with his product in the future, he will make it right. No ifs ands or buts about it.
4. The product works great, and the difference pre and post panamorph is unbelievable.
5. I am still waiting for one for my showroom....
acaciolo
IHMO Don Stewart is not going to make this lens more valuable and $2000 is still way too much for what looks like a contraption. For $2000 the lens at a minimum should be motorized with a remote to slide it back and forth. Why would anyone spend $2000 for something that is going to force them stand on their sofa with their ceiling mounted projector and slide this lens back and forth every time they want to vary their aspect ratio.
I also agree with the negative statements made in regard to the cygnus customer service. Why would anyone trust a company who won't answer their customers/investors emails. No excuse or apology can make any difference for this cavalier behavior. You judge a company or person by their actions-not their words, excuses, and apologies. As far as I am concerned it would take a long time and consistent good reports by fellow AVScience members before I would trust this company or anything they say.
Lenny Eckian
IHMO Don Stewart is not going to make this lens more valuable and $2000 is still way too much for what looks like a contraption. For $2000 the lens at a minimum should be motorized with a remote to slide it back and forth. Why would anyone spend $2000 for something that is going to force them stand on their sofa with their ceiling mounted projector and slide this lens back and forth every time they want to vary their aspect ratio.
I also agree with the negative statements made in regard to the cygnus customer service. Why would anyone trust a company who won't answer their customers/investors emails. No excuse or apology can make any difference for this cavalier behavior. You judge a company or person by their actions-not their words, excuses, and apologies. As far as I am concerned it would take a long time and consistent good reports by fellow AVScience members before I would trust this company or anything they say.
Lenny Eckian
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Personally I don't think many people will be attempting to vary their ratio's by manual adjustment... You should decide on which AR you give priority to and then go that route and scale inside the panel. The Panamorph will give projector owners the ability to want to make their priority widescreen viewing and yet still choose from the multitude of 4:3 projectors in the market many of which with better performance than a 16x9 equivalent price (eg Sanyo 16x9 v Sanyo XP21).. Also I agree that LT150 owners just coming into the FP market may not see the immediate price / performance benefit but any >5k 4:3 projector owner should consider anamorphic lenses very hard if they are doing this for mainly widescreen viewing... To own a DILA and not have a Pannie would not make any sense to me after all its only 2x bulbs !!!
Also as has been mentioned in the past the analogy of a 2k projector and 2k lens being beaten by a 4k projector may be true (even then maybe the 4k widescreen projector market isn't too hot) but what will you have after a year or two... When you upgrade again you must again pay the premium to attain a HT 16x9 projector rather than saving money with a business projector the maths after the second or third upgrade begin to side the Panamorph.
Also the addition of Don Stewart to the Panamorph project is no small thing.. The worldwide distribution and backup of this gives security to the operation.
I agree (and have been vocal about) Cygnus's failure to communicate effectively and IMO they should have allocated a person to accurately answer email and threads here... This could be no more than a couple of hours daily and would have saved them a lot in customer attitudes and probably assisted in more sales. I am pretty certain Cygnus is not going anywhere fast and as proof (putting my money where my mouth is) I am not claiming refund on my $1095 as I believe the item holds greater value than that...
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Also as has been mentioned in the past the analogy of a 2k projector and 2k lens being beaten by a 4k projector may be true (even then maybe the 4k widescreen projector market isn't too hot) but what will you have after a year or two... When you upgrade again you must again pay the premium to attain a HT 16x9 projector rather than saving money with a business projector the maths after the second or third upgrade begin to side the Panamorph.
Also the addition of Don Stewart to the Panamorph project is no small thing.. The worldwide distribution and backup of this gives security to the operation.
I agree (and have been vocal about) Cygnus's failure to communicate effectively and IMO they should have allocated a person to accurately answer email and threads here... This could be no more than a couple of hours daily and would have saved them a lot in customer attitudes and probably assisted in more sales. I am pretty certain Cygnus is not going anywhere fast and as proof (putting my money where my mouth is) I am not claiming refund on my $1095 as I believe the item holds greater value than that...
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New email [email protected]
HTPC without using windows... GUI Front Ends for Home Theater
One thing everybody is forgetting....the internet shoppers who are always searching for projection nirvana at a Dell LT150 price are only a verrrrry small segment of the home theater market.
I personally have installed over 15 very high end theaters over the past year, and not a single one of my customers "researched" the sanyo, seleco, lexicon, or dila electronics that I installed. My customers trusted me to sell them what I think is the best value. I did. They believed me, and now they love their theater.
For some customers, the panamorph coupled with the best screen made, Stewart, is the best option. Others, on a more limited budget, might like a LT150 with a Vutec...or even a homemade screen. How many posts have we all seen on "how to make your own screen?"
Before the Seleco 300 16:9 dlp was even seen, my local rep sold well over a dozen. He has also sold hundreds and I do mean hundreds of Seleco 250's....and this particular projector in my eyes, is not the best value. But to the majority of customers, this projector is the greatest thing since sliced bread...even at $12K
The point is...the market is much much larger than our own little internet world. Customer's walk in local shops or model homes...see the product...and want it. The executives, doctors, lawyers and business owners I build houses for...(and I mean every one of them!) have never even heard of AVScience.
There is a huge market for a product that, in layman's terms, takes a 4:3 projector...makes the image appear to be 33% brighter...and turns it into a "widescreen." And all that...for only $2k. $6k on a projector, $2k on a screen, $6k on speakers, $3k on amps, $5k on a processor...what's another $2k on a magical lens that makes your projector brighter and widescreen?!
Shawn certainly has his hands full...he is trying to do everything. But is the product worth the wait? For my customers...and for every person I have built a home and home theater for...yes. Is it for us enthusiasts who stare at images under a test pattern to ensure perfection? I don't know. For me, as an ethusiast, dealer, and home builder...it certainly is.
We have all heard the rhetoric about lack of emails...poor response...etc.
A suggestion: Get a refund or Wait. But let's not rehash the same old gripes about poor communication.
One more thing...this post isn't directed at any of the above posts....I think after the last few days of Chaos here on the east coast, I got tired of people bitching and complaining.
Let's all be thankful that we have home theaters to go home to. Or for that matter...that we can just go home.
I'll step down off my soapbox now...thanks.
I personally have installed over 15 very high end theaters over the past year, and not a single one of my customers "researched" the sanyo, seleco, lexicon, or dila electronics that I installed. My customers trusted me to sell them what I think is the best value. I did. They believed me, and now they love their theater.
For some customers, the panamorph coupled with the best screen made, Stewart, is the best option. Others, on a more limited budget, might like a LT150 with a Vutec...or even a homemade screen. How many posts have we all seen on "how to make your own screen?"
Before the Seleco 300 16:9 dlp was even seen, my local rep sold well over a dozen. He has also sold hundreds and I do mean hundreds of Seleco 250's....and this particular projector in my eyes, is not the best value. But to the majority of customers, this projector is the greatest thing since sliced bread...even at $12K
The point is...the market is much much larger than our own little internet world. Customer's walk in local shops or model homes...see the product...and want it. The executives, doctors, lawyers and business owners I build houses for...(and I mean every one of them!) have never even heard of AVScience.
There is a huge market for a product that, in layman's terms, takes a 4:3 projector...makes the image appear to be 33% brighter...and turns it into a "widescreen." And all that...for only $2k. $6k on a projector, $2k on a screen, $6k on speakers, $3k on amps, $5k on a processor...what's another $2k on a magical lens that makes your projector brighter and widescreen?!
Shawn certainly has his hands full...he is trying to do everything. But is the product worth the wait? For my customers...and for every person I have built a home and home theater for...yes. Is it for us enthusiasts who stare at images under a test pattern to ensure perfection? I don't know. For me, as an ethusiast, dealer, and home builder...it certainly is.
We have all heard the rhetoric about lack of emails...poor response...etc.
A suggestion: Get a refund or Wait. But let's not rehash the same old gripes about poor communication.
One more thing...this post isn't directed at any of the above posts....I think after the last few days of Chaos here on the east coast, I got tired of people bitching and complaining.
Let's all be thankful that we have home theaters to go home to. Or for that matter...that we can just go home.
I'll step down off my soapbox now...thanks.
Sorry but I'm a doctor (actually a specialist: Gastroenterology) and I do know about AVS. Just because I have the money for a "high end" theater does not mean I won't shop around. I actually have a "low end" theater because my priorities are different (kids, wife, investments, travel, other hobbies, etc.). So to say that number of people who shop around is small is incorrect. As the internet grows, consumers are more and more informed. My patients come to see me with printouts from their web searches about the newest treatments. This is great as it keeps me on my toes to stay current. I personally feel the "high end" theaters are much less common than the "low end" theaters. Heck, most people don't even have a theater at all. The number of videophiles are very few compared to us common folks. I feel sorry for people who don't do the research and let someone else shop for them.
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Huey ;-]
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Huey ;-]
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Tryg, The funniest bit is, with all of this conjecture 'Da Man' still hasn't sold it http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif !!! The proof of the pudding is in the eating !!!
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Huey,
I certainly never meant to imply that all high end customers don't research their purchases. We can all site exceptions to the rule. I don't think there are many custom home builders that actually attend CEDIA and CES and install the home theaters themselves. We are Jenn Air appliance dealer, and Seleco projectors. Pretty strange combination!
What I was saying...is that out of a total of 26 theaters over the past 2 years (over 1/2 of those in the past 12 mos,) I have never, ever had a customer research my suggestions on the internet. Maybe my customers are an oddity...but so far, 100% of my customers have gone on my suggestions. Maybe they know that their time spent on the internet can't match my years of experience, trade show attendance, and manufacturer certifications. I don't know. I do know, that all of my customers have cared more about the experience of watching a movie in a home theater, than what the electronics are that go behind it.
Summary...us tech weenies are the minority. That's a fact. We reseach things till we are blue in the face..and then drive ourselves crazy over something we can't see anyway. I can't tell you how much I hated the dead pixel on my old sony w400. I could only see it on a blank screen...and it was invisible during movies. But damn...it sure annoyed me! But luckily, most customers aren't like us internet, information seeking, high end tweaking, junkies.
"For $2k more we can make your Stewart screen look 33% brighter...and it will be widescreen too!" "For only $2k...I'll take it!"
hope everyone is having a better day than tuesday.
thanks.
I certainly never meant to imply that all high end customers don't research their purchases. We can all site exceptions to the rule. I don't think there are many custom home builders that actually attend CEDIA and CES and install the home theaters themselves. We are Jenn Air appliance dealer, and Seleco projectors. Pretty strange combination!
What I was saying...is that out of a total of 26 theaters over the past 2 years (over 1/2 of those in the past 12 mos,) I have never, ever had a customer research my suggestions on the internet. Maybe my customers are an oddity...but so far, 100% of my customers have gone on my suggestions. Maybe they know that their time spent on the internet can't match my years of experience, trade show attendance, and manufacturer certifications. I don't know. I do know, that all of my customers have cared more about the experience of watching a movie in a home theater, than what the electronics are that go behind it.
Summary...us tech weenies are the minority. That's a fact. We reseach things till we are blue in the face..and then drive ourselves crazy over something we can't see anyway. I can't tell you how much I hated the dead pixel on my old sony w400. I could only see it on a blank screen...and it was invisible during movies. But damn...it sure annoyed me! But luckily, most customers aren't like us internet, information seeking, high end tweaking, junkies.
"For $2k more we can make your Stewart screen look 33% brighter...and it will be widescreen too!" "For only $2k...I'll take it!"
hope everyone is having a better day than tuesday.
thanks.
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Good points by all. Question: Does acaciolo want to buy Phreddy's Panamorph? It would seem he has a steady stream of buyers (1 per month for the last 2 years) lined up.
Tryg,
Your analysis of demand doesn't account for the large number of potential buyers waiting on the sidelines to see how the distortion issue works out, for more user reviews, and for them actually to become available for immediate purchase.
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Noah
Your analysis of demand doesn't account for the large number of potential buyers waiting on the sidelines to see how the distortion issue works out, for more user reviews, and for them actually to become available for immediate purchase.
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Noah
I think I am a good example of many "home theater" owners.
I bought a decent business projector, (Plus UP1100), so I could get into home theater now, at an affordable price point.
My plan is to upgrade to a 16 x 9 based projector in 1 to 2 years.
I might consider spending $500 on a "tweak" like the Panamorph to get a better picture now. But I would never consider spending $2,000. That is money I will be saving for my next projector.
There will always be a market for expensive and specialized products. However, In this case I think that market will be very small. Reed.
I bought a decent business projector, (Plus UP1100), so I could get into home theater now, at an affordable price point.
My plan is to upgrade to a 16 x 9 based projector in 1 to 2 years.
I might consider spending $500 on a "tweak" like the Panamorph to get a better picture now. But I would never consider spending $2,000. That is money I will be saving for my next projector.
There will always be a market for expensive and specialized products. However, In this case I think that market will be very small. Reed.
Quote:
I happened to be one in that group. I considered it last year at the $600 range and said, "hey if this thing is what some are praising it as, I will buy it. I want evidence first" However now even though the current design will work with my D-ILA it is no longer rationally priced for me.
My picture is already fabulous. Oh and to put another bee in your bonnet. People are already putting higher wattage Cermax bulbs in their D-ILAs to get more brightness. JVC doesn't have a price fixing stranglehold on the standard 500w (G20)bulb. The secret is in keeping the projector cool.
| Originally posted by noah katz: Tryg, Your analysis of demand doesn't account for the large number of potential buyers waiting on the sidelines to see how the distortion issue works out, for more user reviews, and for them actually to become available for immediate purchase. |
My picture is already fabulous. Oh and to put another bee in your bonnet. People are already putting higher wattage Cermax bulbs in their D-ILAs to get more brightness. JVC doesn't have a price fixing stranglehold on the standard 500w (G20)bulb. The secret is in keeping the projector cool.
Quote:
Someone who wants a bright widescreen projector for under $7000. My guess is that there are quite a few people that fit that description.
Also, the OEM market may very well be significant. The Panamorph will allow manufacturers to market HT versions of there business projectors with minimal engineering re-design.
Jeff Streitz
Iowa City, IA
[This message has been edited by Jeffrey (edited 09-13-2001).]
| Originally posted by Tryg: Honestly, who's going to buy a $2000 lense for a projector thats under $5000. |
Someone who wants a bright widescreen projector for under $7000. My guess is that there are quite a few people that fit that description.
Also, the OEM market may very well be significant. The Panamorph will allow manufacturers to market HT versions of there business projectors with minimal engineering re-design.
Jeff Streitz
Iowa City, IA
[This message has been edited by Jeffrey (edited 09-13-2001).]
Quote:
Tryg-
Could you start another thread on what you know about this or point me towards the discussion. Thanks.
Jeff Streitz
Iowa City, IA
| Originally posted by Tryg: People are already putting higher wattage Cermax bulbs in their D-ILAs to get more brightness. JVC doesn't have a price fixing stranglehold on the standard 500w (G20)bulb. The secret is in keeping the projector cool. |
Could you start another thread on what you know about this or point me towards the discussion. Thanks.
Jeff Streitz
Iowa City, IA
Quote:
Yeah, but Jeffrey most the projectors in the $5000 and under are business projectors and have "business projector" limitations. Why wouldn't someone just buy the current crop of kick butt home theater projectors in the $5-7k range and bypass all the hassels gimmicky add ons. I believe there really is only a small group of people that need to tweek, modify and ad gadgets in pursuit of their own AV nirvana.
| Originally posted by Jeffrey: Someone who wants a bright widescreen projector for under $7000. [This message has been edited by Jeffrey (edited 09-13-2001).] |
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