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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If your speakers allow bi-amping is there any real advantage to using this technique? I understand the principle, principles are not always practical, but if planning on using mono-block amplifiers, Is 2 x 250w better than one 500w?


Just trying to get my summer plan together.
 

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"Is 2 x 250w better than one 500w?"

It is my understanding that at least in low level biamping (Where you insert the crossover ahead of the power amps and connect the power amps directly to the drivers) that 2 x 250w is MUCH better than one 500w. Whether this out weights other considerations is another matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I don't believe I can bypass the internal crossovers. I have Canton Ergo 102DC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
...unless using the separate set of binding posts initiates the bypass.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Christopher Howard
...unless using the separate set of binding posts initiates the bypass.
The binding posts should go to each driver's crossover. The one for the woofer for instance would go to the low-pass section of the crossover so that the low frequency driver gets the low frequencies only.


If this is the case the gains realized by bi-amping will be a lot less as both you power amps will be receiving full range inputs.
 

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Make sure you're not confusing bi-wiriing with bi-amping.

Bi-wiring means using two sets of interconnects from the amplifier to the speaker.

Bi-amping means using two amplifiers per speaker, with one amp dedicated to the woofer and the other to the tweeter. Note that bi-amping requires an external active crossover located in the signal chain before the amplifiers.


Bi-wiring is of debatable merit. Bi-amping offers significant advantages.
 

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Buzz,


A separate crossover is not always required for bi-ampping! I have some Linn speakers (Kaber's) which provide 3 sets of inputs. And each input (I think) has it's own crossover treatment into the woofer, mid-range and tweeter drivers. Linn originally sold these allowing for:


1. Single or bi (or tri!) wiring -- single amp to single speaker. For example, if using 3 sets of cable to that speaker you just hook them up to each of the 3 inputs terminal pairs. If for example you have bi-wires, hook up one wire set to the bass input and the other to the mid or high terminal pair and then add a pair of shunts (metal strips that connect the high and mid inputs so both are driven).


2. Bi or tri amping (passive) -- same as above, but using separate amps driving the separate wires to the separate inputs.


3. Bi or tri amping (active) -- this works like your description of bi-amping and is probably the most common type situations where multiple amps are used to feed a single speaker channel. A pre-amp level crossover splits and feeds separate amps to drive the bass/mid/high frequency speaker sections.


While I used my Linns as main speakers (currently they are very simply driven with single wiring in our game room!) I did play with single wiring, tri-wiring (a slight improvement), and passive tri-amping (a significant improvement even without using a cross over circuit in front of the amps).


I realize that many people will say "no-way" can this help, but is was definitely for real to me (and I'm far from being a high-end fanatic). Technically, I believe that the reason that multiple wires, or separate amps even more so, help the sound is that they tend to ïsolate the speaker "reactions" from the other speakers.


Jim
 

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Buzz,


Not always! I have some Linn speakers (Kaber's) which provide 3 sets of inputs. And each input (I think) has it's own crossover treatment into the woofer, mid-range and tweeter drivers. Linn originally sold these allowing for:


1. Single or bi (or tri!) wiring -- single amp to single speaker. For example, if using 3 sets of cable to that speaker you just hook them up to each of the 3 inputs terminal pairs. If for example you have bi-wires, hook up one wire set to the bass input and the other to the mid or high terminal pair and then add a pair of shunts (metal strips that connect the high and mid inputs so both are driven).


2. Bi or tri amping (passive) -- same as above, but using separate amps driving the separate wires to the separate inputs.


3. Bi or tri amping (active) -- this works like your description of bi-amping and is probably the most common type situations where multiple amps are used to feed a single speaker channel. A pre-amp level crossover splits and feeds separate amps to drive the bass/mid/high frequency speaker sections.


While I used my Linns as main speakers (currently they are very simply driven with single wiring in our game room!) I did play with single wiring, tri-wiring (a slight improvement), and passive tri-amping (a significant improvement even without using a cross over circuit in front of the amps).


I realize that many people will say "no-way" can this help, but is was definitely for real to me (and I'm far from being a high-end fanatic). Technically, I believe that the reason that multiple wires, or separate amps even more so, help the sound is that they tend to ïsolate the speaker "reactions" from the other speakers.


Jim
 

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Thanks Jim,


I wasn't aware of those.

Of course traditionally bi or tri-amping has a crossover before the amplifiers so the amp only has to work on a limited range of frequencies (active biamping), but I would agree there would be potential for some improvement passively
 

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Concerning passive Bi-amping, I'd like to try this for my Linn center channel speaker. Does anyone know if any manufacturers make some relatively high quality splitters to split the center channel audio signal? I already have speaker cable suitable for splitting, I just need some type of RCA audio cable. I know that Radio Shack makes some, but the connectors are not very nice. Does anyone else make something like this? Thanks.


Bob
 

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Monster makes some pretty good splitters. However, the best splitter is a home made one by re-terminating your cables and avoiding another mechanical connection... Keep in mind if you are using two different types (or models) of amplifier to do your bi-amping, you will need to level match the two...
 

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I have been biamping a center speaker for years(6/7) The left side of the amp drives the woofers/the right side drives the mid/highs.--Using an Aerial biwireable speaker.--This is referred to as vertical biamping.


Many HT amps allow any channel/s to be bridged to double the power to a given channel/s. Altho the increased volume under such a method(doubling)is supposed to be only 3db--it is more the headroom,and is a good increase in transparency.The speaker is driven more effortlessly.


Biwiring with different amps gets complicated. Sometimes better speakers or better amps--or both--is less complicated. Geo
 

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I've heard that bi-amping helps separate the feedback from the different drivers, especially the woofers which are a more difficult load, from the tweeters. I've never tried it but have been toying with the idea for a while.


-Mike...
 

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Thanks for the info. I'm going to use two channels of one 5-channel amp to passively biamp the Linn center channel. I want to try it before and after. Currently I have biwired speaker cable (terminated together at one end and separated at the other). I was going to unterminate the end that's put together and create two separate sets of wires. Then, I'd connect these to the Linn's posts and to the two amps. However, I need a cable splitter to split the RCA cable from the preamp to the amp so that I can drive two channels. I like the idea of the Monsters, because they have a connection that isn't a wire (it's just a "solid' splitter), it has one male RCA and two female RCA. Pretty pricey, though, $15 or $20. I'm going to listen to some material with the center channel biwired and then listen to some material with the center channel passively biamped. Unfortunately, it will not be easy to switch back and forth to more adequately test the difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I am considering VTL MB-185 (2) pair vs. MB-450 pair. Any opinions. The MB-185 is slightly under-powering my speakers rated 200w/300w, but will be fine bi-amped.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Christopher Howard


The MB-185 is slightly under-powering my speakers rated 200w/300w, but will be fine bi-amped.
I think best way to determine if you have enough power is to look at the sensitivity of your speakers. If you have speakers with 90dB of sensitivity it will scale like this:


1W = 90dB

2W = 93dB

4W = 96dB

8W = 99dB

16W = 102dB


Every time you double your power, you increase your volume by 3dB. If you listen to music around 75-85dB, you are usually using less than 1 watt of power! If you're listening to over 100-105 dB regularly, you either have very understanding neighbors, no neighbors, or are on the road to permanent hearing loss.


Overhead is very overrated.


-Mike...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mike_decock
I think best way to determine if you have enough power is to look at the sensitivity of your speakers. If you have speakers with 90dB of sensitivity it will scale like this:


1W = 90dB

2W = 93dB

4W = 96dB

8W = 99dB

16W = 102dB


Overhead is very overrated.
One thing to keep in mind is that sensitivity is usually measured at a specific distance, usually one meter, depending on accoustics, one can loose 3dB for each additional meter between the listener and the speaker.


I do agree that it's easy to get carried away. 75dB is a LOT for me, and as I understand it, 90dB and up for prolonged periods can be damaging.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM



One thing to keep in mind is that sensitivity is usually measured at a specific distance, usually one meter, depending on accoustics, one can loose 3dB for each additional meter between the listener and the speaker.

I knew that but didn't want to make it TOO complicated to make my point. I just went from 65wpc to 8wpc and am in no way underpowered for my speakers/listening room under normal listening conditions. I tried to see "how loud" I could go but backed off in fear of making enemies out of my neighbors.


-Mike...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Canton Ergo 102DC rated at 89dB at 1W 1 meter.


So...

1W = 89dB actual 82dB

2W = 92dB 85dB

4W = 95dB 88dB

8W = 98dB 91dB

16W = 101dB 94dB


but this is at 1 meter. My listening distance is 3.5 meters. Mmmm I am going to have to get out my SPL meter and test my average listening volume. Is this test with pink noise, since wave, etc. ???
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Is this the same S.S. vs. tube? Bass response?
 
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