[canman1976]

Hi Im planning on ordering a set of paradigm studio 100's with matching surrounds and center and was considering using a denon 3806 AVR or a Onkyo 906 and using the AVR's pre-outs for a external amp.I was going to run the fronts and center off the amp (considering a xps-3 emotiva) and was looking for opinions on this configuration.In this case only the surrounds would use the avr's amps as the sub would have its own built in amp(possibly svs).Any concerns about this set-up?


thank-you.

Jamie.

 

[Hksvr4]

Have you listened to those speakers before?

 

[canman1976]

Not the studios but I have heard pardigms before and loved the sound,I did hear alot of owners say that the 100's really shine with a ext amp though.Just wondering if there are any issues here that may complicate things later im using this set-up for 90% movie and high def tv,


thanks

again.

 

[Espo77]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15462769


Hi Im planning on ordering a set of paradigm studio 100's with matching surrounds and center and was considering using a denon 3806 AVR or a Onkyo 906 and using the AVR's pre-outs for a external amp.I was going to run the fronts and center off the amp (considering a xps-3 emotiva) and was looking for opinions on this configuration.In this case only the surrounds would use the avr's amps as the sub would have its own built in amp(possibly svs).Any concerns about this set-up?


thank-you.

Jamie.

The Denon has 120 watts per channel. The Emotive XPA-3 has 200 watts per channel. I looked on Emotive web site and did not see the XPS-3.

You have to double your power to notice any improvement in power.( I think I said that correctly). Whats wrong with 120 watts per channel. Do you crank the volume a lot? Why not buy a more powerful receiver or separates?

 

[canman1976]

keep in mind im a newbie here,the reason Im avoiding separates is that ive heard they are very expensive and from what I hear a reciever amp gives nowhere near the performance of a external amplifier.So what would you recommend as a good amp to power the fronts and center channel?The emotiva seems to be very reasonably priced.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
The Denon has 120 watts per channel. The Emotive XPA-3 has 200 watts per channel. I looked on Emotive web site and did not see the XPS-3.

Its XPA-3 and its easy to find on the site.....


Its not that simple....The Denon has listed spec of 120W/ch into 8 ohms but what is the true measurement for 5 or 7 channels driven, what is the true power given to the LCR and at what ohms? What is the true distortion measurement when driving speakers hard? Impedance is all over the map so AVRs sometimes fail to produce much powers as the impedance dips. AVRs seem to not meet their power specs either.


The emotiva amps tend to be UNDER rated from everything I have read and experienced in house but I have not had mine tested.


No AVR is built to have a great internal AMP so External amps are going handle the power better its just a scientific and manufacturing fact.


Here is the SPL vs dB chart


1W = 3dB gain

2W = 6dB gain

4W = 9dB gain

8W = 12dB gain

16W = 15dB gain

32W = 18dB gain

64W = 21dB gain

128W = 24dB gain

256W = 27dB gain


+24 to +26dB is about all we will get out of either the Denon alone or the Denon/XPA, the question though really is the dynamic PEAKS that each will handle and what is the distortion levels at that +24-26dB level? (keeping in mind that speakers have impedance curves that will drop to less then 4 ohm sometimes)




btw, I own a Denon 2809 and I did own a XPA-5 (sold it recently because I kept my Sunfire amp). The XPA series is the best $$$/performance out there period. Nothing will match them!

 

[markwriter]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15462769


Hi Im planning on ordering a set of paradigm studio 100's with matching surrounds and center and was considering using a denon 3806 AVR or a Onkyo 906 and using the AVR's pre-outs for a external amp.I was going to run the fronts and center off the amp (considering a xps-3 emotiva) and was looking for opinions on this configuration.In this case only the surrounds would use the avr's amps as the sub would have its own built in amp(possibly svs).Any concerns about this set-up?


thank-you.

Jamie.

This link has some third-party hard data on the performance of the 3806. Here's a summary:


"Denon's AVR-3806 aced every bench test I ran, with lots of power, near-perfect noise and linearity, and unusually good performance on our 24-bit/96 kHz PCM tests. Five- and 6-channel power were particularly impressive, remaining above 100 watts before clipping any channel."

 

[Espo77]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15466122


keep in mind im a newbie here,the reason Im avoiding separates is that ive heard they are very expensive and from what I hear a reciever amp gives nowhere near the performance of a external amplifier.So what would you recommend as a good amp to power the fronts and center channel?The emotiva seems to be very reasonably priced.

Well I can see by your response that you are determined to purchase a receiver only to turn right around and purchase an amp to "help" drive your speakers. I just don't see the logic. I would understand if you were already using a lower powered receiver and felt the need for more power. I know a lot of people do this and it works just fine for them. How much are you going to spend on a receiver and amp?

 

[rnatalli]



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/15466217


Its not that simple....The Denon has listed spec of 120W/ch into 8 ohms but what is the true measurement for 5 or 7 channels driven, what is the true power given to the LCR and at what ohms? What is the true distortion measurement when driving speakers hard? Impedance is all over the map so AVRs sometimes fail to produce much powers as the impedance dips. AVRs seem to not meet their power specs either.

I agree it isn't, but Denon tends to do well on the bench under strain. Of course, an XPA will outcrank it. Another option is the Onkyo 805 which has a pretty robust amp section.

 

[Espo77]



Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/15466217


Its XPA-3 and its easy to find on the site.....


Its not that simple....The Denon has listed spec of 120W/ch into 8 ohms but what is the true measurement for 5 or 7 channels driven, what is the true power given to the LCR and at what ohms? What is the true distortion measurement when driving speakers hard? Impedance is all over the map so AVRs sometimes fail to produce much powers as the impedance dips. AVRs seem to not meet their power specs either.


The emotiva amps tend to be UNDER rated from everything I have read and experienced in house but I have not had mine tested.


No AVR is built to have a great internal AMP so External amps are going handle the power better its just a scientific and manufacturing fact.


Here is the SPL vs dB chart


1W = 3dB gain

2W = 6dB gain

4W = 9dB gain

8W = 12dB gain

16W = 15dB gain

32W = 18dB gain

64W = 21dB gain

128W = 24dB gain

256W = 27dB gain


+24 to +26dB is about all we will get out of either the Denon alone or the Denon/XPA, the question though really is the dynamic PEAKS that each will handle and what is the distortion levels at that +24-26dB level? (keeping in mind that speakers have impedance curves that will drop to less then 4 ohm sometimes)




btw, I own a Denon 2809 and I did own a XPA-5 (sold it recently because I kept my Sunfire amp). The XPA series is the best $$$/performance out there period. Nothing will match them!

WOW! You make receiver performance sound pretty bad.

 

[canman1976]

Yes if a amp is what I need to get the full potential out of the studios than thats what im determined to get otherwise I will always wonder what my system could sound like. From what im hearing the amp does alot more than just increase the loudness of a speaker but it improves the cripness and clarity of the audio.I wish there was a avr that could achieve what amp provides but im sure its well outta my price range.

 

[Yosh70]

I have v2 100's with a CC690 and 20's for rears.....originally all running off a 90wpc Marantz. I had demo'd Anthem and Parasound amps way back (originally had 60's) and really appreciated the extra power esp. from the Parasound.


A few years later I sold the 60's and purchased the used 100's. I decided to cheap out and add a Behringer 160W amplifier for the 100's, meh, not a lot but you could hear a difference when turned up.


But when a fellow from down east listed a 3x250W Parasound amp for sale last year, I had to get it. The difference I found is night and day when watching a movie or concert at high listening levels.

Clarity and wider sound stage are two things that I think have improved. I'm sure it took a load off the receiver as well and now can supply ample power to the rears with no issues. Again, this is all at higher listening levels.


But dont take my word for it, maybe you dont need an external amplifier like Espo says.

Try running your setup with just the receiver and then see if you can "demo" an amplifier from a local shop.

Size and configuration of the room, how close your listening position is, how loud you like to hear it, etc. all come into play.


No sense spending money if you dont need to.

 

[markwriter]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15466883


Yes if a amp is what I need to get the full potential out of the studios than thats what im determined to get otherwise I will always wonder what my system could sound like. From what im hearing the amp does alot more than just increase the loudness of a speaker but it improves the cripness and clarity of the audio.I wish there was a avr that could achieve what amp provides but im sure its well outta my price range.

I can sympathize with your concern about getting the most from your speakers, but the idea that "the amp does alot more than just increase the loudness of a speaker but it improves the cripness and clarity of the audio" is pure myth. I believed it for a long time, and had dual-mono Parasound HCA 1000A's capable of 400 watts each running into a long list of different speakers. Listening and reading helped me realized that I would be much better off selling the separates and maximizing my investment in speakers. Unless you're constantly listening at hearing-damaging levels, a bigger amp is going to do nothing for you. Now, if $$ isn't a problem, then by all means having more power can be a nice insurance policy if and when you get the opportunity to push the speakers beyond reference levels. But if you need to maximize your investment, putting as many $$ into speakers as possible is the best way to go.

Here's some info on amplifier measurements.

 

[vili]

I don't currently have the setup but I would look at it this way. You can spend $400 now and get a decent receiver with a so-so amp and a separate amp that costs $600 or just buy a nice receiver for 1k and be done with it. Well, 5 years from now you may want to upgrade and power won't change so you can still use that $600 amp and just spend another $400 on a receiver rather than replacing it all. Just my opinion.

 

[Espo77]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15466883


Yes if a amp is what I need to get the full potential out of the studios than thats what im determined to get otherwise I will always wonder what my system could sound like. From what im hearing the amp does alot more than just increase the loudness of a speaker but it improves the cripness and clarity of the audio.I wish there was a avr that could achieve what amp provides but im sure its well outta my price range.

"It's well out of my price range"............

How much are you going to spend on the receiver and amp?

 

[canman1976]

Well the most I am willing to spend is between 2 or 3 thousand for avr and amp but I could spend that on a reciever alone and still not equal the ext amps added performance right?


Guess I set it all up,have a listen then decide on the amp,hopfully I will be happy without the amp.


When you hear so many people suggest a amp to really here your speakers potential it convinced me to try it but will hold on it for now as I mabe happy without one.

 

[Espo77]



Quote:
Originally Posted by canman1976 /forum/post/15467355


Well the most I am willing to spend is between 2 or 3 thousand for avr and amp but I could spend that on a reciever alone and still not equal the ext amps added performance right?


Guess I set it all up,have a listen then decide on the amp,hopfully I will be happy without the amp.


When you hear so many people suggest a amp to really here your speakers potential it convinced me to try it but will hold on it for now as I mabe happy without one.

There! ...... I got you to state the dollar amount! My basic point was why start out going with a receiver and amp when if you can afford to go separates. I do believe you can, with $3000.00. A sweet new processor and a separate fat brute amp. Receivers are for people who can't afford, or don't want to spend their money on separates.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
WOW! You make receiver performance sound pretty bad.

I didnt think I did.


If someone wants 90 to 100 dBs peak SPL then there is no reason for an external amp unless someone chooses a pre/pro.


But if people want that clean +26 dB gain they have to go with an external amp...its just a science thing and nothing to do with subjective SQ debates.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Receivers are for people who can't afford, or don't want to spend their money on separates.

Do you really believe this?


Do you have scientific proof that separates sound better then a higher end AVR? Most people buy separates because they require better SPL dynamics. Well mostly anyone that understand the science

NOTE: this discussion should be in the amplifier/AVR/pre pro forum!

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Well the most I am willing to spend is between 2 or 3 thousand for avr and amp but I could spend that on a reciever alone and still not equal the ext amps added performance right?

No, a good AVR will sound as good as a good pre/pro and amp setup when you are only listening at levels that require nothing over 100Watts of power per channel.




NOTE: this discussion should be in the amplifier/AVR/pre pro forum!