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Is upconversion useless without DVI/HDMI

1133 Views 27 Replies 8 Participants Last post by mhock5, Mar 2, 2005

nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · Mar 1, 2005

Will a DVD player (that has a built in scaler) upconvert 420p to 720p through the component connections?? My projector has component in, RGB (which I think is the PC version), and svideo, but no DVI/IEEE/HDMI.

Since I rarely use SACD or DVD-A and don't have DVI/IEEE/HDMI on my projector, but want GREAT video quality, would a Denon 2910/3910 still be a good choice, or would I be paying for features that I'd not be able to use until I get a new pj (several years)??

Thanks.

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Chris Gerhard

· #2 · Mar 1, 2005

Upconversion over component might provide a better picture, but you would have to determine that for yourself. I am using a Zenith DVB318 and I like the picture upconverted to 1080i over component to my Panasonic 720p LCD projector. No Denon model upconverts over component. None of the best players upconvert over component and it is certainly a subjective opinion whether a player like the Zenith DVB318 will provide a better picture compared to a good 480p player. In my opinion, it does but that isn't a universal opinion and it is very display dependent.

Chris

mhock5

· #3 · Mar 1, 2005

There are a select few that upscale via component cables. The Zenith 318 and the NeuNeo 208 are 2 of them. There is a thread concerning upscaling players at the top of this forum that has a lot of good information in it and which lists the others that upscale via component cables. I have the NeuNeo 208 and am actually pretty impressed with it. It clearly provides a better pic than my Sony progessive scan. You can check it out at neodigits.com.

nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 1, 2005

Ok. Is it possible that a Denon, like the 2910/3910 using non-upconverted 420p over component cables (which might be scaled by my pj) could look as good or better than another player's DVI, etc. scaled picture??

In other words, am I wasting money on the Denon's since I can't use upconverting (at the moment) and I'm better off either with a lower end player (1910 or another brand) or finding one in my price range +-$600 that upconverts over component?

I just can't figure out what DVD player to get with my set-up - I was happy with my Yamaha that my babsitter broke (see my other post) and while I'll try to get it fixed, I thought I'd treat myself to another one if it was going to be a much higher quality video PQ - which I can't seem to figure out - and I don't have the time or money to buy a couple and test them.

mhock5

· #5 · Mar 1, 2005

You are asking a highly subjective question. Some people swear the upconverting players provide a better picture. Others swear by Denon, no matter the model number. And still others insist that your average Sony progressive scan player produces virtually the same quality picture as higher priced players. You are simply going to have to either go somewhere that has all the players you are considering so you can see them or just pick one and try it out.

BillP

· #6 · Mar 1, 2005

I would either get one of the few players that upconvert over component, or go with a good progressive scan player, like the denon 2200. I think the 2910/3910 are overkill for you since they do not upconvert over component and you are not interested in high res audio. When you're ready to get a new pj in a few years, you'll be looking at HD players, so it doesn't make much sense to go the 2910/3910 route now. And this advice is coming from a big 3910 fan.

DaveInBerlinNJ

· #7 · Mar 1, 2005

Um... its 480p, not 420.

What type of PJ do you have? Analog or digital?

If digital, what is it's native display rate?

I'm guessing it's a non-HD digital (no HD digital inputs) or analog.

If its analog, you lose the "all-digital path" benefit... but upconversion may still improve picture.

If its non-HD digital, I don't think I bother with an upconverter.

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nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · #8 · Mar 1, 2005

mhock5,

I checked out the site you recommended and am going to try the neuneo 208. It seems a little too good to be true, but what the heck. The only issue I read from a review is that it defaults to Dolby Digital and you have to access the menu after you start a movie, find an unlabeled reference to something like 6 channel audio, and essentially force an override to DTS. I'm not sure if that was fixed by a firmware upgrade.

mhock5

· #9 · Mar 1, 2005

neither am i but i think they're working on a firmward upgrade now. Don't expect an hd quality picture. However, for the money I think it provides an improved picture over your typical 480p. I thought the same as you...why not give it a try. I've had it for a couple weeks now and have watched many movies on it with no problems. I have to admit I like it.

nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · #10 · Mar 1, 2005

So, Mhock5, you still think it's a good deal for the money? I guess it's better for my set up than spending $800-1100 for a Denon 2910/3910 (or refurb $500/800) and not being able to take advantage of DVI/HDMI.

Dave,

I have a Sharp XVZ-9000. It's a DLP projector (Mustang I chip) with a native 720p. No digital inputs - only component or VGA. I tried the VGA once with my other gear and couldn't get it to sync. I think it's a true computer VGA and some players with VGA are video VGA which is somehow different - refresh rate or something. But this player that Mhock5 has claims to have computer VGA out, and upconverts from 480p to 720p over component. Theoretically, 480p scaled to 720p won't be as good as native recordings or broadcasts in 720p (algorithm imperfections causing artifacts), but should always look better than 480p, right? Some (as I think someone said already) people swear that a Denon 2910/3910 even over component without upconverting will look better than many player with DVI/HDMI and upconverting. So it seems like I'd benefit from the Neuneo player for less than $250 - and then when I get a new pj in a few years - blue ray and HD-DVD will either be more mature - or one will win out over the other - but I can make a true upgrade. Thoughts?

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Chris Gerhard

· #11 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by nahtanoj
So it seems like I'd benefit from the Neuneo player for less than $250 - and then when I get a new pj in a few years - blue ray and HD-DVD will either be more mature - or one will win out over the other - but I can make a true upgrade. Thoughts?

If everybody waits then of course both formats will fail and neither will have any available players when you are ready to upgrade. If enough buy one or both the first couple of years, then yes your plan should work. I don't have any experience with the NeuNeo players but from what I have read, they work pretty well and are better built than some other players.

Chris

mhock5

· #12 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by nahtanoj
So, Mhock5, you still think it's a good deal for the money?

I really do. Plus, they have a 30 day money back guarantee that says you can return it for any reason. You'll just lose the shipping cost but I thought it was worth a try and am not disappointed so far. Hopefully, if you pull the trigger on one you'll be happy with it too.

truthonly03

· #13 · Mar 1, 2005

Hi, I new to the AVS forum but have been reading all sorts of threads on upconversion DVD players. II have have an XGA DLP projector (Dell 2300MP no DVI input or Optoma Ezpro 745 with DVI input). I'm in the process of replacing my Dell with the Ezpro to get the DVI input. I was wondering if anyone can help me choose the best upconverting DVD player get 720p and 1080i (prefebly through component so that I can run everything through my receiver).

Right now I'm torn between the Momitsu v880, LG DV7832, and the Zenith DV318. I believe the Momo and the LG has macrovision disabled, which is ideal, but which among these three put out the best image, sharpness, color etc?

Thanks for your help

nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 1, 2005

Wow. I didn't realize there were more than a couple of players that upconvert via component. I'd like to read the answer to yiour question as well. How might they compare to the Neuneo. What is macrovision??

BillP

· #15 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Gerhard
If everybody waits then of course both formats will fail and neither will have any available players when you are ready to upgrade. If enough buy one or both the first couple of years, then yes your plan should work. Chris

That's an interesting argument. But I'm still going to wait it out (I don't want to get stuck with the losing "beta-max" format).

truthonly03

· #16 · Mar 1, 2005

As far as I know, Momitsu, and the LG (canada release of the Zenith) will upconvert with component, and non-firmware flashed Zenith 318 as well. Apparently a new firmware upgrade last year disabled the Zenith ability to upconvert through component. Macrovision is some copyright protection software used by DVDs to prevent copying but also in the process disables upconversion to HD. Disney DVDs all have that, that's why import upconverting DVD players are prefeble due to looser laws on disabling this protection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's all I know.

Chris Gerhard

· #17 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by BillP
That's an interesting argument. But I'm still going to wait it out (I don't want to get stuck with the losing "beta-max" format).

I really wouldn't consider it an argument, it is an obvious fact. Without early adopters, none of the new formats would ever succeed. How many of any given format need to be sold for second generation models to be developed varies but there are plenty of consumer electronics products that die a quick death. Some are dumb ideas, others might have ultimately been very good but didn't catch on quick enough. I expect only 1 of these 2 products to succeed and the number might be zero.

Chris

DonRC

· #18 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

I expect only 1 of these 2 products to succeed and the number might be zero.

The good news is that with models dropping to levels such as the $165 or $225 (depending on whether it's 1080i or 1080p compatible) for an upconverting HD-DVD player, people that buy them now aren't out a huge investment if the format fails, and they still have a useful device since it upconverts today's DVDs.

DaveInBerlinNJ

· #19 · Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by nahtanoj

Dave,

I have a Sharp XVZ-9000... Thoughts?

Yes, with that PJ, I'd SURELY try feeding it an upconverted 720p analog signal!

nahtanoj

Discussion Starter · #20 · Mar 1, 2005

Thanks Dave. I know it would be the tail wagging the dog (can see the divorce papers now), but for a fleeting moment, I thought that the DVD player breaking might be a good excuse to buy a newer pj. Mine is very good - although I've heard good things about the M2 DLP chips in the newer sharps (I like the series, 9000, 10000, etc.). But even a refurb 10000 or whatever they're up to now (I think 12000) would be several thousand - and I guess a $225 player with a 30 day money back guaranty that might look as good or maybe even better than a $800+ Denon is a good chance to take. I could always use it as a third player - or a forth player. I am a videoholic.

It seems that Neuneo 208 is selling for the most part because of its niche abilities. I think agreements that the US subsidiaries of japanese companies are signing with the movie industry are preventing them from disabling/bypassing coopy protection thus preventing 720p from passing through component cables. I know that in China, there is a much lower standard for following intellectual property protection treaties and laws - and NuoNeo - or however you spell it - is hardly a household name. so what does this all mean to me? The motion picture industry probably won't notice them much or demand that they comply and upgrade their firmware to prevent upconverting - at least until they become more popular and mainstream - if ever. The only question would be how to be sure before you upgrade firmware what it does. I doubt Zenith told people it would take that feature away. If anything, I bet they marketed/pushed it as making a PQ improvement of some kind as a lure. Just my guess with no basis.

FWIW, I head the momitsu does not have good build quality, but Zenith isn't known for building tanks either. I don't know about the Neuneo, but MHock5 might, since he bought one.

mhock5, any comment on the build quality - were you pleasantly surprised? I assume it's no tank either - like some of the Denons? how does it compare to your Sony?? I think I'm pulling the trigger on it tonight. It'll save me enough to go for that $2000 receiver - that I have no clue how to choose either.

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