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Thanks for the great review Tom. I noticed you didn't comment on the DVDO's scaling as compared to Lumagen's. In my personal experience (as a VP50 and Radiance owner) Lumagen has a noticably better solution as compared to DVDO, mostly with respect to ringing (or lack thereof in the Lumagen algorithm). I've always wondered why DVDO has never improved upon their scaling algorithms since the introduction of their 10-bit scaling engine in the VP30. I'm also curious as to why it seems that DVDO has dropped SDI support, which was one of their strong points over Lumagen for a while - and in fact now the Radiance XS supports SDI (but no HD SDI)!


That being said, it certainly seems that the DUO offers quite a bit of bang for your buck in terms of features and connections. I'm sure there will be a LOT of happy owners out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You know, I didn't want to go into any great detail about the core processing. That has been covered elsewhere in greater detail than I wanted to commit to. Also, I tend to think that with the proliferation 1080p sources and 1080p displays, scaling is much less of an issue than it used to be, although there are still a lot of DVDs out there. Having said that, I subjectively found the SD performance of the Duo beyond criticism, though admittedly I didn't do any formal tests, as I was focused on the calibration controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/18212682


Thanks for the great review Tom. I noticed you didn't comment on the DVDO's scaling as compared to Lumagen's. In my personal experience (as a VP50 and Radiance owner) Lumagen has a noticably better solution as compared to DVDO, mostly with respect to ringing (or lack thereof in the Lumagen algorithm). I've always wondered why DVDO has never improved upon their scaling algorithms since the introduction of their 10-bit scaling engine in the VP30. I'm also curious as to why it seems that DVDO has dropped SDI support, which was one of their strong points over Lumagen for a while - and in fact now the Radiance XS supports SDI (but no HD SDI)!


That being said, it certainly seems that the DUO offers quite a bit of bang for your buck in terms of features and connections. I'm sure there will be a LOT of happy owners out there.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18212845


You know, I didn't want to go into any great detail about the core processing. That has been covered elsewhere in greater detail than I wanted to commit to. Also, I tend to think that with the proliferation 1080p sources and 1080p displays, scaling is much less of an issue than it used to be, although there are still a lot of DVDs out there. Having said that, I subjectively found the SD performance of the Duo beyond criticism, though admittedly I didn't do any formal tests, as I was focused on the calibration controls.

Fair enough - I partly agree on the scaling issue, although people using the DUO to implement a CIH setup or (as you pointed out) to watch DVDs would probably be interested in that information. However as you also said it's been covered elsewhere, so no need to re-hash it. As I said, given what you've found, I think a lot of people will be happy with the unit as is given the large number of displays that don't have good greyscale/gamma/CMS controls. If DVDO eventually gets around to completing the functionality of the CMS, that would be even better.
 

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What stimulus level was used to correct the chromaticity? Also, did the chromaticity correction hold true at other stimulus levels?


Did you examine picture quality to determine if any posterization was present, especially at the stimulus extremes?


Bob
 

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I cannot find any statement of intent from DVDO concerning the future of their Duo/CMS. I guess DVDO could feel their current CMS is adequate for the market segment they have targetted. Does anyone know if it could be upgraded to full functionality (and if so how difficult that would be) or does it lack the capability as did the HDP?
 

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I don't think that we need to spend a lot of time debating the scaling algorythms, the price points are too different and that is one dead and badly beaten horse. The real question at the price point will be about the CMS functionality and what that will look like in the relatively near future. I want to know where DVDO is going with this. Given the right CMS functionality I am a buyer. I have an Edge currently and find it to be quite a useful device. The DUO with a fully functioning CMS at the street prices it sells would grab a big share of the market. SD sources are on their way to Dodo bird land. I was in my local Wally World and saw BD movie twin packs for $14.99. Sure these were back catalog titles but still. Broadcast will all be HD in short order, so in the long term scaling is just not that big a draw as displays get better and better native processing. VPs with full CMS and hooks to autocalibration software at consumer friendly pricing is clearly a nitch to exploit. My guess is that DVDO has a better idea of what size the market really is if the price point and feature set allows them access to more than just the super high end botique market. The Radience XE seems like an awesome piece of gear, on the other hand it reminds me of the Compaq strategy of the late 80s. Compaq in those days kept making the product more high end and expensive and shrinking the market until you they had no market left. I remember chatting with the founder of Compaq, Rod Canion, after they fired him for sticking with the strategy right into disaster land. Sure he left with $400 million, but the strategy was so misguided. I think DVDO gets the idea of creative destruction. They understand, they have to cannibalize a $3k a piece VP segment with $1200 unit, or there is no future at all. That is why the DUO is now and upgrade path for the V50/V50Pro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citation4444 /forum/post/18214881


What stimulus level was used to correct the chromaticity? Also, did the chromaticity correction hold true at other stimulus levels?


Did you examine picture quality to determine if any posterization was present, especially at the stimulus extremes?

100%


I noticed no posterization.



R100%0.6380.330
75%0.6430.329
50%0.6320.329
25%0.6470.322
G100%0.2990.600
75%0.2930.609
50%0.2950.605
25%0.2940.615
B100%0.1440.059
75%0.1450.059
50%0.1450.059
25%0.1450.061
Y100%0.4220.490
75%0.4300.499
50%0.4240.492
25%0.4240.496
C100%0.2120.309
75%0.2120.310
50%0.2130.313
25%0.2160.319
M100%0.3130.151
75%0.3170.152
50%0.3180.153
25%0.3200.153
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci /forum/post/18220653


I wonder if Tom finds a similar issue on the plasma.

I found that getting the saturations right was very challenging and required considerable trial and error. There is no setting that gets all of the saturations correct, including the default (no CMS) setting.


I definitely ended up with less correction (so the 100% saturations were a little high). Since blue was correct by default, I only had to adjust red and green.



Red100%0.6510.328
75%0.5450.329
50%0.4540.328
25%0.3850.327
Green100%0.2860.639
75%0.3050.543
50%0.3110.459
25%0.3090.383
Blue100%0.1480.060
75%0.1880.125
50%0.2310.196
25%0.2740.261
Yellow100%0.4320.519
75%0.3920.456
50%0.3560.399
25%0.3290.359
Cyan100%0.2090.317
75%0.2450.317
50%0.2730.323
25%0.2940.325
Magenta100%0.3120.147
75%0.3140.205
50%0.3130.245
25%0.3130.285
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18221329


There is no setting that gets all of the saturations correct, including the default (no CMS) setting.

Do the saturations have this issue at all stimulus levels?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18221329


I definitely ended up with less correction (so the 100% saturations were a little high).

Do you have another CIE chart of saturations for when you optimized the 100% saturations?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci /forum/post/18227044


Do the saturations have this issue at all stimulus levels?

Does such a suite of test patterns exist? AVS-HD contains a set of saturation patterns (0/25/50/75/100%) for each color at 100% stimulus. I'm not aware of that same set of patterns at other stimulus levels unless they are found on a calibration pattern generator or other commercial calibration disc. As for whether the display's gamma can affect where these patterns measure, yes, this is true but the change is fairly small. The RGB triplets used to author the patterns are gamma-corrected with a display gamma of 2.22. How these are measured on any display would, I assume, depend on what formula the display uses to "de-gamma" the RGB triplet. There was a spreadsheet produced by Bill Mitchell I believe that re-calculated the expected xyY points for the saturation patterns based on your display's measured gamut and measured average display gamma.


hope this helps.



--tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci /forum/post/18227044


Do the saturations have this issue at all stimulus levels?


Do you have another CIE chart of saturations for when you optimized the 100% saturations?

Here are the saturations and the amplitudes with the CMS engaged, calibrated at 100% stimulus and 100% saturation (which looks the best to my eyes).

Saturations



Amplitudes

 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Here are the saturations with the CMS disengaged.




As you can see, no setting will get this right at all saturations.


Notice how the magenta hue gets much more accurate with the CMS engaged despite the fact that it has no secondary adjustment. This is because the secondaries are derived from the primaries and the white balance--make them more accurate and the secondaries will get more accurate automatically.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman /forum/post/18328422


This is because the secondaries are derived from the primaries and the white balance--make them more accurate and the secondaries will get more accurate automatically.

Interesting. I don't doubt your measurements. But I had the opposite experience with the Vision's CMS. Pushing and pulling on the primaries seemed to get the secondaries out of wack. This is one of the reasons I went for a JVC RS20.
 
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