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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, we solved the subwoofer need with all sorts of designs that get the job done better than any commercial design could for the money.


Then we tackled the midbass problem and figured bigger drivers were needed in the 80hz-400hz range.


I think the new weak link is the tweeter.Is there a way to use an array of (4) tweeters vertically orientated and wired in series /parallel to give them the headroom they need to keep up at high SPL's ?


I'm thinking of big rooms like Art's, not little 1800cuft rooms like mine.


KG
 

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There's guys that know a lot more than me. What little I know is you'd need tweeters or possibly even planars in short angled/curved array to keep comb filtering down. I also wondered if one could use dome tweeters in narrow horns to reduce dispersion, though I'm sure comb filtering wouldn't be avoided.


Bueller, bueller...
 

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Horn loading is part of the answer. Horn loading done right,you have tremendous efficiency and can keep up in very large rooms at high SPL.


other obvious and logical solution...


Egglestonworks uses others too,arrays of drivers. You have a lesser load per driver.Distortion will in most cases remain very low as each driver works very little.


With the horn you can use one driver,arrays well several are needed.
 

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Tweeters will pretty much always be the weak link, you can really only do one, if you did a stack, you'd need to keep the center spacing within about an inch of eachother. Planars are nice because you can stack them. You need to start looking into compression drivers and or horn loaded designs to get the kind of spl's your looking for. Compression drivers tend to be shrill, but this can be tamed with the right implementation, horns make things peaky and hard to implement, its tough all the way around. Some options to consider:


All tweeters struggle in the 1-4KHz range, if you can cross them over higher, you can squeeze more spl's out of them. Find a mid that can handle a 3-5Khz crossover and your tweeters job will be much easier.


If your doing a large HT, something that would work beautifully but you never see implemented is 3 full size line arrays behind an AT screen, this would allow you to use more common tweeters like BG neo planars or even ribbons in your design.


Another option is to look into some of those high efficiency horn loaded tweeters, anomorphic has some with his usher clone thread. I know some of those can sound sweet in the speaker. His are in some open baffle dipoles, but you could use them with ordinary cabinet loaded woofers.
 

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Well, if you find a dome tweeter that lets you get your CTC spacing down, go for it, people do these quasi line arrays quite a bit in cyber. Another option would be planars but those have limited vertical dispersion, which happens to help eliminate comb filtering, but also reduces the amount of stacked output you get from them. You can use them, I have done small arrays of PT2C's and they can sound quite good and really dish out a lot of spl. For HT, these small arrays can really do well, I prolly wouldn't use them as much for highly discretional two channel listening as much though.


There is another tweeter option that thy likes and I will be testing soon but...perhaps we'd better not get into that here, you can PM me or him for more info if your really interested.
 

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There is some esoteric tweeter talk on the Lambda thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=982428


It's very strange to see many people interested in higher SPL speakers in just

a week or so. What happened? lol ......


When I think about high SPL, low distortion playback, the tweeter is the biggest

headache for me. Compression drivers and horn lenses are the easy way out.

I like that solution because there are many products on the market. But after you mess around with

these you may get bored and want something different that doesn't involve horns,

and these other solutons are very few and costly. There are some elite tweeter out there,

not cheap, or you just have to make a line array speaker using the proper tweeters

for that job.


I guess what I would do is see if the compression driver/horn solution works for you.

Order one driver/horn for audition and see if you like the sound. If not, then you now

know that horns aren't the right path, the path you need will be more complex.


On the Lambda thread, some neat horns are mentioned. There are more on the market.

If you don't want to invest the money on buying a sample driver, then maybe try to audition

a store speaker with a horn tweeter, if you can find such a speaker in the store. lol .....
 

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As you've probably noticed and others commented, the tweeter is one of the hardest things to do with high output and high efficiency. There is always the compression driver/horn option, but that takes a lot of room on a cabinet, and there are so many compression drivers to choose from. The issue even with tweeters is you need to move air to make output. A typical dome tweeter doesn't have a lot of efficiency to begin with and a 1" dome has a small radiating area. To get high levels it would have to move great distances and that isn't typically possible.


Ribbons have larger radiating areas, and can often get you the high efficiency and high output levels. Then you do have a narrow vertical dispersion to deal with though. These are some options that work well if you can live with that. We've been discussing some on the Lambda thread also.


Raven R3, 98dB 1W
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=56


Alian 6020, 97dB
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=179


Aurum Cantus AC-G1 102dB
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=207


TAD ET-703 supertweeter 107dB, max SPL 122dB 5000hz and up
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=15


Fountek NeoPro5i, 102dB
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1557


I believe RAAL has some high efficiency ribbons too.


If ribbons aren't an option, or that TAD isn't, look into the various coax drivers out there with good compression drivers. The B&C is good, BMS has one, 18sound has one. They all have pretty good midrange drivers to accompany them.


John
 

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Ribbons probably work well for most folks, I have just blown too many, planars are nice because they can take a lot more abuse and tell you they've had enough before they go blowing their $45 elements. The problem is there aren't many high efficiency planars out there, you really need at LEAST 95dB to get the job done, although like I said, you can make it easy on them sometimes by doing a nicer crossover.



Dirtyharriette had some nice ideas, she wanted to go a bit overboard perhaps but hey, that was up to her.


I think that if you are doing a large home cinema, some JBL 3632 speakers would do very nicely heres some specs http://store.aiconsol.com/3632-jbl.html it kinda depends on large you are going though, in a smaller room, those horns would sound nasty, but in a big room, they would sound pretty decent. I'd prolly stick them in a room thats at least 600 square feet, closer to 1000 would be nice.
 

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RAAL makes outstanding quality ribbon tweeters. Unless I am mistaken I think Shinobiwan uses RAAL tweeters in his truly exquisite DIY speakers (also using Audiotechnology mid bass/bass drivers...think of them as higher end Dynaudio !)


If I start building DIY mains I will use RAAL tweeters. With the proper crossover the best ribbon tweeter beats the finest classic dome tweeter ,even the exotic diamond tweeters(I heard the B&W(800D) and Accuton...in Avalon speakers) !


Ribbon tweeters are a great way to combine efficient with absolute resolution,detail to die for. No wonder a few upscale lineups from reputable speaker makers now start using ribbon tweeters(the Monitor Audio Platinum...ah this is some HF magic).
 

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For a more bulletproof solution horn loaded compression drivers are the easy way to go. SPL is not a problem,as give me a break...anyone who claims a proven JBL or TAD compression driver with the proper matched horn will not provide. It will and up to a SPL that will make you grimace.


And nobody can claim you need a ribbon tweeter's finesse in bombastic movies. All movie theaters use what works best LARGE HORNS, Klipsch, JBL,TAD and a few others.


And we know these can sound pretty damn good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
My interest has alway been headroom. With most of my listening at 85db (listening position) or lower, i'd like to stay clear of my RS28a's breakup point.


In big rooms speakers like tannoy's dual concentric could be a real option.How realistic is it to have a horn tweeter and a 15" bass driver.I really like the simplicity of the twoway like that.
 

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.How realistic is it to have a horn tweeter and a 15" bass driver.I really like the simplicity of the twoway like that.


Very realistic if you use the Lambda TD woofers. Think of them

as woofers + midbass + midrange drivers all in one package.

You have option for sealed, ported, pr. etc.


Unity horn could be up your ally, more complex and I don't

know of anyone now selling DIY kits. The idea is sweet. That's

why the Lambda TD woofers were born, specifically for mating

with a Unity design.


The Unities that were sold in KIT or finished from Lambda before

closing the doors, looked like this;


Unity is the HF driver + midrange drivers in the lense.


Unity prototype;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/unity_proto.jpg


more pics;

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/unit_horn.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/horn_finish.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/speaker-6.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/unity-2.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/unity.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/unity-3.jpg


Cowans ?
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/lambda/speaker-7.jpg
http://www.cowanaudio.com/


Yorkville has a Unity product.


If you like it, you might want to talk to Tom Danley since the

patent is his. He has products that are interesting.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/
 

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The issue that gets overlooked with any high output tweeter option is the integration with the next lower set of drivers. Yes, you can certainly get something that will give you flat response on axis. The trickier part is understanding what happens from a 2-3D spacial perspective vs. the 1D view of a magnitude response.


Most home audio products aren't concerned with what's going on much further off axis, and only look at what's happening in a frontal 60-90 deg cone. In real rooms, it's the full sphere of radiation that impacts the sound.
 
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