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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampd /forum/post/15005635


AbMagFab, thanks for trying to simply but keep enough technical detail to make it real. We have solutions for the video side of things, but what are the key roadblocks / lack of support on the PAP side of things? Are we missing anything on the hardware side of things? Or is it just really the lack of software support to acutally support the bitstreaming once the PAP path has been established? I guess I'm still struggling to understand the lack of this type of support and frustrated at the lack of options (which seems SO basic to what we are all trying to do)

There are a bunch of issues around PAP:


The first is hardware - the hardware must support PAP. Currently, only the Xonar HDAV (junk) and the G45 (abandoned PAP) have any hardware support at all. So other than those (today), you will never see full resolution HD audio.


The second is Vista. Vista redid the sound subsystem, making some things better, but it actually made things like PAP harder. They basically API'd the whole thing, but apparently forgot to standardize a PAP API. So each PAP implementation is going to be specific to the hardware, which means hardware vendors have to get a software partner to even make it worth while to implement PAP (which is why Intel abandoned their G45 PAP portion, apparently).


The third is the software players. They need to implement PAP integration into each hardware vendor's product. However there are virtually no PAP hardware products around, so it's not high on their priority list.


So this could be resolved a couple of ways:

1) Vista could implement a standard PAP API (perhaps someday)

2) Software vendors could modify their license agreements with the HD audio codec vendors to allow for full resolution HD audio when no AACS is present (not likely)

3) More PAP products come out and the software players have to support the hardware (sort of like with HA video today) because the demand is high enough (not for a while)


Bottom line, nothing will likely change in the next 1-2 years. Perhaps the Xonar and the Prelude will end up working, or more likely the v2.0 of those cards will work sometime next year. Beyond that, until demand picks up, not much else will change.


In the mean time, you can get 16/48 LPCM HD audio over HDMI for as cheap as $50. It's beautiful, and it's mostly indistinguishable from bitstreaming. Further, most BluRay is mastered in 16/48 anyway, so there's no difference.
 

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Great summary.


If I understand everything correctly, might an additional solution may be a third party directshow codec that that removes the down-sampling limitation? Something similar to AC3 Filter? This of course assumes there is a player that will use directshow for codec priority instead of their own internal codecs. . .
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlton Bale /forum/post/15006998


Great summary.


If I understand everything correctly, might an additional solution may be a third party directshow codec that that removes the down-sampling limitation? Something similar to AC3 Filter? This of course assumes there is a player that will use directshow for codec priority instead of their own internal codecs. . .

Sort of... Unfortuately, the BD software players (TMT/PDVD) will only use their own codecs.


You have a couple options here:


1) Give up ISO/disc playback, and remux the MKV file (just the movie file) with FLAC audio, and then use TMT to play it back - you'll get full resolution HD 7.1 LPCM.


2) Hope one of the open-source codecs eventually handles TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., natively. Then, rip the MKV out (but no remux necessary), and then play with MPC or something similar (but not TMT or PDVD).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stranx44 /forum/post/15005658


One last request for present owners. Can you play this with MPC and let us know if full HA is available and working? Should have my 6TB of data backed up to migrate to 9300, so will be buying soon! TIA!

I think you forgot what 'this' is ie. no link to 'this'.
 

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Hey everyone! I love this thread and the fact that people contribute such valuable information. Thanks!


I just had one question: should I buy the 9300 motherboard?


I want a home computer for Adobe CS3, basic music production, DVD playing/ripping, possible BluRay playing/ripping, and light gaming.


I currently have an AMD 64 3000+ on an nForce4 motherboard. And I bought an E7200 a month ago for CHEAP and I'm trying to figure out if I should sell it or put it in a new system.


This 9300 looks promising, however, I have seen some drawbacks.


So, should I buy the Asus that's out now? Wait a week or two for a new board? Or ditch the 9300 altogether?


Thanks a ton.



(And does it support dual digital output? With/without display port? I'm still confused on that.
)
 

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Damn, can't paste URL..

But it you search on "EVGA europe shop" and look for the 730i motherboard....



Does this suggest the EVGA nvidia 730i / GeForce 9300 is actually available ??

But at a price!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/15005945


There are a bunch of issues around PAP:


The first is hardware - the hardware must support PAP. Currently, only the Xonar HDAV (junk) and the G45 (abandoned PAP) have any hardware support at all. So other than those (today), you will never see full resolution HD audio.


The second is Vista. Vista redid the sound subsystem, making some things better, but it actually made things like PAP harder. They basically API'd the whole thing, but apparently forgot to standardize a PAP API. So each PAP implementation is going to be specific to the hardware, which means hardware vendors have to get a software partner to even make it worth while to implement PAP (which is why Intel abandoned their G45 PAP portion, apparently).


The third is the software players. They need to implement PAP integration into each hardware vendor's product. However there are virtually no PAP hardware products around, so it's not high on their priority list.


So this could be resolved a couple of ways:

1) Vista could implement a standard PAP API (perhaps someday)

2) Software vendors could modify their license agreements with the HD audio codec vendors to allow for full resolution HD audio when no AACS is present (not likely)

3) More PAP products come out and the software players have to support the hardware (sort of like with HA video today) because the demand is high enough (not for a while)


Bottom line, nothing will likely change in the next 1-2 years. Perhaps the Xonar and the Prelude will end up working, or more likely the v2.0 of those cards will work sometime next year. Beyond that, until demand picks up, not much else will change.


In the mean time, you can get 16/48 LPCM HD audio over HDMI for as cheap as $50. It's beautiful, and it's mostly indistinguishable from bitstreaming. Further, most BluRay is mastered in 16/48 anyway, so there's no difference.

I understand the need for PAP for encrypted audio. What if the audio isn't encrypted? Why do you need PAP to send unencrypted audio (TrueHD for instance, if it isn't encrypted) via HDMI to a receiver and let the receiver do the decoding? Nothing needs to be done by the computer except pass the data, yet there isn't a way to do this. I don't understand what makes this so difficult. Would someone enlighten me?


Thanks,

Brett
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stottle /forum/post/15010615


I understand the need for PAP for encrypted audio. What if the audio isn't encrypted? Why do you need PAP to send unencrypted audio (TrueHD for instance, if it isn't encrypted) via HDMI to a receiver and let the receiver do the decoding? Nothing needs to be done by the computer except pass the data, yet there isn't a way to do this. I don't understand what makes this so difficult. Would someone enlighten me?


Thanks,

Brett

It's not a technical issue, it's a licensing issue. The software players (TMT/PDVD) apparently have agreements with Dolby and DTS to convert to LPCM and bitstrip to 16/48 if there's no PAP.


The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD. There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track. (This is different than a core BD disc, since there are lots of ways for consumers to create unencrypted BD discs without AnyDVD, which is why HDCP/PVP isn't required with AnyDVD HD).


Anyway, hope this helps.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/15010780


It's not a technical issue, it's a licensing issue. The software players (TMT/PDVD) apparently have agreements with Dolby and DTS to convert to LPCM and bitstrip to 16/48 if there's no PAP.


The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD. There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track. (This is different than a core BD disc, since there are lots of ways for consumers to create unencrypted BD discs without AnyDVD, which is why HDCP/PVP isn't required with AnyDVD HD).


Anyway, hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?


Thanks again,

Brett
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.O.P /forum/post/15007178


I think you forgot what 'this' is ie. no link to 'this'.


This, is 9300/9400 chipset mobo.
No worries, should get my board by tomorrow or Friday at the latest.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/15010780


The argument, which makes sense, is that there's no such thing as unencrypted TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc., without AnyDVD HD.

Some HD DVDs are not AACS protected. So it's possible to have unencrypted TrueHD and DTS-MA tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/15010780


There's no way for a consumer to create a TrueHD track.

Not yet, anyway. The ffmpeg guys are working on an MLP encoder.
 

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I have a noob question. How could i connect this mobo to the system. I am not sure if i understand correctly, i will connect from Mobo to LCD via DVI or HDMI for video, as for audio, i just need to connect HDMI port from Mobo to HDMI in receiver. Is it correct?


Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stottle /forum/post/15010870


Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?


Thanks again,

Brett

Just the algorithm for decoding the tracks, which are relatively complex. Nothing else technical or hardware related. The compression algorithms for the codecs aren't open source, so anyone using them is technically violating copyright. But I believe the open source codecs are close to this anyway.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stottle /forum/post/15010870


Thanks for the reply. Thanks makes sense, but I have a follow-up question. What prevents a different program (MPC-HC for instance) - one that can read an unencrypted m2ts file - from passing the raw truehd stream directly to an av receiver? I'm guessing the answer is that the hardware with the hdmi output has drivers that won't allow this without PAP? If so, since DisplayPort is an open standard, would it theoretically be possible to send the raw stream on a DisplayPort cable?


Thanks again,

Brett

I don't know what it takes to bitstream audio, but there is a hardware component, otherwise the PS3 would do it (it's HDMI 1.3, but cannot bitstream HD codecs).


I don't think anyone outside of the people working on bitstreaming drivers know exactly what it takes.


What I do know is that it's not as easy as saying mux-in true-HD stream.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arryo /forum/post/15011824


I have a noob question. How could i connect this mobo to the system. I am not sure if i understand correctly, i will connect from Mobo to LCD via DVI or HDMI for video, as for audio, i just need to connect HDMI port from Mobo to HDMI in receiver. Is it correct?


Thanks

Mobo HDMI -> receiver HDMI in -> receiver HDMI out-> HDMI to DVI cable->LCD Panel.


A good reciever should pass the EDID info from the LCD to the PC.

SHOULD being the operative word.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/15012267


Just the algorithm for decoding the tracks, which are relatively complex. Nothing else technical or hardware related. The compression algorithms for the codecs aren't open source, so anyone using them is technically violating copyright. But I believe the open source codecs are close to this anyway.

???


I understand the decoding algorithm is complex and not open source, but I'm talking about feeding the not-yet-decoded (but unencrypted) stream directly to the AV-receiver, which already knows how to decode the lossless audio formats (mine does, which is why I'm also following the HDAV1.3 thread with disappointment). All the HTPC needs to do is pass the raw stream to the AV-receiver. Does the PAP requirement go away if the audio isn't encrypted?


Brett
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stottle /forum/post/15012401


???


I understand the decoding algorithm is complex and not open source, but I'm talking about feeding the not-yet-decoded (but unencrypted) stream directly to the AV-receiver, which already knows how to decode the lossless audio formats (mine does, which is why I'm also following the HDAV1.3 thread with disappointment). All the HTPC needs to do is pass the raw stream to the AV-receiver. Does the PAP requirement go away if the audio isn't encrypted?


Brett

Ah, right, sorry. I can only assume it's fairly complicated to ensure the compressed codec is always perfectly synched with the video, especially when there's decoding going on in an external device.


I think it's more than simply passing the bitstream along, I think there's a fair amount of iterpretation of the bitstream, that you can only do if you know how to decode it.


But no, there is nothing technical that I'm aware of that prevents the bitstream from passing over any HDMI cable, through any HDMI 1.2+ hardware. Just like there's nothing technical preventing a non-HDCP 1080p signal from passing over HDMI.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab /forum/post/14988636


...The advantage the 8200/8300/9300/9400 have is that they do silky smooth 24p - a critical feature for a true HTPC.

Hey AbMagFab, I'd be keen to hear your thoughts on how good the 9300 is for SD post processing.


Thanks

Mike
 

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AbMagFab/sotti - Thanks for the replies.


I'm still not sure what, if any, magic is required in terms of decoding a truehd stream. But what I was forgetting was that the signal on the hdmi cable is not a transport stream. Just like the video card takes the video stream and converts it to distinct pixels sent to the screen, the audio probably needs to be translated for transmission along the hdmi cable (even if it doesn't need to be decoded at all). Probably that is the piece that isn't available to put into programs like MPC or VLC?


Brett
 
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