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I've never used separate zone 2/3 or separate amplification; let's talk use cases

1050 Views 3 Replies 2 Participants Last post by smithsabom, Sep 6, 2019

steveklein

Discussion Starter · Sep 5, 2019 (Edited)

Up to this point in my life, I've never had the space, desire and/or money to put anything more than a 5.1 system, powered by an AVR at or below $500, in my home. I was a kid in a bedroom, then a college student in a cheap apartment, and even now in my starter home... simple 5.1 in one room is all I need. So my current receiver (Onkyo HT-RC180, about 10 years old) has a zone 2 and even a zone 3 pre out (which I don't entirely understand since it is only a 7.2 receiver, but I digress...) that I've never used.

In any event, with a larger house, more sophisticated media room in the works, numerous (5-10) potential audio zones, a bigger budget, and a rapidly changing landscape with regards to whole home audio has led me to investigate new solutions, because no longer will a single sub $1000 receiver do the trick (at least... I don't think one can, but I'm here for all suggestions!)

Keep in mind I will also want basically everything to be controllable by both apps and via voice commands (Alexa, Siri, or Google ecosystem more than likely). So I am curious what products will I need to accomplish the following task:

The media room will be running at least a 5.2.2, and more likely 7.2.4 atmos setup. It will more than likely have 3 displays... a projector + screen or huge flagship TV as the centerpiece, with 2 secondary TVs so we can keep up with other games, or maybe play some Xbox One. Regardless, I will want to be able to connect any of my video sources (Xbox One, Gaming PC with Plex server, Apple TV, maybe others) to any of my displays. And while I would want the audio associated with the main display to be the norm, if I so choose to want to listen to the audio from one of the smaller displays, that's my prerogative! Furthermore, if I want to send the audio of the football game to my bathroom or my pool deck speakers, in addition to playing in the media room, that should be possible too!

Based on this, I am assuming I need:
- An AV receiver with at least 3 HDMI outputs (Though it isn't critical to lock one down yet because by the time I'm ready to buy, a better option may exist but I've got my eye on the Denon AVR-X3600H; Realistically, I'll end up getting a 2020/2021 unit that has HDMI 2.1)
- Because I will want room for 7.2.4, this receiver alone (9 channels) is not going to be able to do it. I'll need a good quality 2 channel amp that can power my main left and right speaker, while the AVR can handle the other 9 channels.
- And while we are buying 2 channels of really solid amplification, I also need who knows how many zones/channels of lesser quality amplification. That's where this Monoprice 6 Zone Home Audio Multizone Controller comes in. I read I can put a ribbon between a few of these and link 3 together for 18 total zones, which seems like plenty to me.

Will this be enough hardware? I'll run all speaker wire to this device in my media rack (to the outdoor zones, this could be 100+ feet). How do I then output the sound from, say, a Roku streaming stick playing a football game which is in HDMI 1 or Xbox One which is connected to HDMI 4, to one of these 6 secondary audio zones? I am assuming I have to run some sort of stereo out(s) (red/white cable(s)? Just 1? Or 1 for each source?) from the Denon to the Monoprice unit. And then tell the Monoprice unit which zones to send that audio too.

Also, I noticed this product is from ~2013 and uses wall panels. While this is okay, I'd much rather be able to control a system like this via voice/app as opposed to just knobs or buttons on a wall panel. Are there newer products that integrate better with today's helpers like Alexa, Siri, and Hey Google.

Am I even on the right track?

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smithsabom

· #2 · Sep 5, 2019 (Edited)

steveklein said:
Up to this point in my life, I've never had the space, desire and/or money to put anything more than a 5.1 system, powered by an AVR at or below $500, in my home. I was a kid in a bedroom, then a college student in a cheap apartment, and even now in my starter home... simple 5.1 in one room is all I need. So my current receiver (Onkyo HT-RC180, about 10 years old) has a zone 2 and even a zone 3 pre out (which I don't entirely understand since it is only a 7.2 receiver, but I digress...) that I've never used.

In any event, with a larger house, more sophisticated media room in the works, numerous (5-10) potential audio zones, a bigger budget, and a rapidly changing landscape with regards to whole home audio has led me to investigate new solutions, because no longer will a single sub $1000 receiver do the trick (at least... I don't think one can, but I'm here for all suggestions!)

Keep in mind I will also want basically everything to be controllable by both apps and via voice commands (Alexa, Siri, or Google ecosystem more than likely). So I am curious what products will I need to accomplish the following task:

The media room will be running at least a 5.2.2, and more likely 7.2.4 atmos setup. It will more than likely have 3 displays... a projector + screen or huge flagship TV as the centerpiece, with 2 secondary TVs so we can keep up with other games, or maybe play some Xbox One. Regardless, I will want to be able to connect any of my video sources (Xbox One, Gaming PC with Plex server, Apple TV, maybe others) to any of my displays. And while I would want the audio associated with the main display to be the norm, if I so choose to want to listen to the audio from one of the smaller displays, that's my prerogative! Furthermore, if I want to send the audio of the football game to my bathroom or my pool deck speakers, in addition to playing in the media room, that should be possible too!

Based on this, I am assuming I need:
- An AV receiver with at least 3 HDMI outputs (Though it isn't critical to lock one down yet because by the time I'm ready to buy, a better option may exist but I've got my eye on the Denon AVR-X3600H; Realistically, I'll end up getting a 2020/2021 unit that has HDMI 2.1)
- Because I will want room for 7.2.4, this receiver alone (9 channels) is not going to be able to do it. I'll need a good quality 2 channel amp that can power my main left and right speaker, while the AVR can handle the other 9 channels.
- And while we are buying 2 channels of really solid amplification, I also need who knows how many zones/channels of lesser quality amplification. That's where this Monoprice 6 Zone Home Audio Multizone Controller comes in. I read I can put a ribbon between a few of these and link 3 together for 18 total zones, which seems like plenty to me.

Will this be enough hardware? I'll run all speaker wire to this device in my media rack (to the outdoor zones, this could be 100+ feet). How do I then output the sound from, say, a Roku streaming stick playing a football game which is in HDMI 1 or Xbox One which is connected to HDMI 4, to one of these 6 secondary audio zones? I am assuming I have to run some sort of stereo out(s) (red/white cable(s)? Just 1? Or 1 for each source?) from the Denon to the Monoprice unit. And then tell the Monoprice unit which zones to send that audio too.

Also, I noticed this product is from ~2013 and uses wall panels. While this is okay, I'd much rather be able to control a system like this via voice/app as opposed to just knobs or buttons on a wall panel. Are there newer products that integrate better with today's helpers like Alexa, Siri, and Hey Google.

Am I even on the right track?

congrats on the new house... you are very close to custom AV automation/integration... however, most of what you want to do can be achieved via Denon's HEOS system, insofar as pushing the audio to all your zones.

distributing video is another animal altogether. Monoprice as a great selection of "matrix" switchers. 4x4, 8x8, etc...

BTW, I use multi-zone almost everyday

some random comments:

multi-zone built into your current receiver: it is a pre-amp function, not an amp function. make sense?
you'd most likely have to get the 4400/4500 - 9 on board amps, 11 channel processing. it will have 3 HDMI outputs: 2 for main zone(2nd is a mirror) 1 for zone 2.
if using a 4400/4500, audio to zone 3 is going to be analog only - so using the source(Roku) will have to be converted to analog first, in order to get it to zone 3, and or other zones. ( as an aside: the first gen Apple TV had both HDMI and analog outputs. I could use both simultaneously( both Apple TV and receiver) to get Apple TV content to all zones!)
one consideration is "zone control". if you just want to push a single source, that is much easier. if you want to be able to play discreet sources in each zone, then you would have to convert the source to analog first, or have a dual ( digital and analog) output. HEOS can do that but it will get somewhat pricey ( HEOS pre-amps list for 349. available on ebay, used/refurb in the 200-250 range) Denon also makes a rack mount 4 x unit ( HEOS super link ( 4 x pre-amp) and Super drive ( 4 x HEOS amp)

with some foresight and planning, you can DIY it. it really depends on the level of complexity you want to achieve.

good luck

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steveklein

Discussion Starter · #3 · Sep 6, 2019 (Edited)

smithsabom said:
congrats on the new house... you are very close to custom AV automation/integration... however, most of what you want to do can be achieved via Denon's HEOS system, insofar as pushing the audio to all your zones.

distributing video is another animal altogether. Monoprice as a great selection of "matrix" switchers. 4x4, 8x8, etc...

BTW, I use multi-zone almost everyday

some random comments:

multi-zone built into your current receiver: it is a pre-amp function, not an amp function. make sense?

you'd most likely have to get the 4400/4500 - 9 on board amps, 11 channel processing. it will have 3 HDMI outputs: 2 for main zone(2nd is a mirror) 1 for zone 2.

if using a 4400/4500, audio to zone 3 is going to be analog only - so using the source(Roku) will have to be converted to analog first, in order to get it to zone 3, and or other zones. ( as an aside: the first gen Apple TV had both HDMI and analog outputs. I could use both simultaneously( both Apple TV and receiver) to get Apple TV content to all zones!)

one consideration is "zone control". if you just want to push a single source, that is much easier. if you want to be able to play discreet sources in each zone, then you would have to convert the source to analog first, or have a dual ( digital and analog) output. HEOS can do that but it will get somewhat pricey ( HEOS pre-amps list for 349. available on ebay, used/refurb in the 200-250 range) Denon also makes a rack mount 4 x unit ( HEOS super link ( 4 x pre-amp) and Super drive ( 4 x HEOS amp)

with some foresight and planning, you can DIY it. it really depends on the level of complexity you want to achieve.

good luck

Thanks for the feedback. I do see what you mean by my current AVRbeing a pre-out for zone 3. As in, I can connect an amplifier there and then power more speakers that way... not actually power speakers by the current AVR. Makes sense.

Would this setup work [consider Denon AVR to be a future Denon AVR with HDMI 2.1, capable of powering a 7.1.4 atmos setup. Could even be a different brand since I don’t at the moment plan .]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theoretical Sources That Must Be Viewable on Any of the 3 Displays in the Main Media Room. I probably won’t actually have 4 or 5 different streaming sticks, but I might…)
Apple TV -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 1
Gaming HTPC -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 2
Xbox One -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 3
Roku Stick -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 4
Chromecast -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 5
Portable Source -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 6
Future Source -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 7
My phone for Bluetooth/Airplay/Casting Video – Connectable to Denon AVR

Theoretical Sources That Must Be Audible in any zone
My phone for Bluetooth/Airplay/Casting Audio
My entire music library (currently stored on the gaming HTPC, but could build a cheap separate box to just house the music)
AM/FM Radio
XM Radio
Various Internet Streaming Sources (Tidal, Pandora, Spotify, etc)

Theoretical Sources That Must Be Viewable in any zone with a display
TV Shows and Movies from Plex server (currently stored on the gaming HTPC; again, could move to a separate box… though I’m assuming I will need whatever box the video is on to be a powerhouse in order to keep multiple devices happy)

Denon AVR (needs video connectivity only to 3 Media Room monitors (and would like the ability to expand this), but housewide audio connectivity)
HDMI Input 1 – Apple TV
HDMI Input 2 – Gaming HTPC
HDMI Input 3 – Xbox One
HDMI Input 4 – Roku Stick
HDMI Input 5 – Chromecast
HDMI Input 6 – Portable Source
HDMI Input 7 – Future Source
HDMI Out 1 ----> Main Display for primary media room viewing in 7.1.4 atmos
HDMI Out 2 -----> 2nd display in media room
HDMI Out 3 -----> 3rd display in media room (need a way to output 3 different video sources to 3 different screens simultaneously. The AVRs I’ve been looking at to this point appear to only have 2 real outputs with the 3rd being a mirror)
Audio Out (what type of cable?) -----> Monoprice 6 zone Controller/Amp (for distributing audio to any zone; Not sure how many zones I will wind up with, but these are stackable so I can have 18 zones if needed)

Theoretical audio zones in my home (probably will start with fewer, but all will be prewired):
Zone 1 – The 7.1.4 Media Room (3 displays)
Zone 2 – The everyday living room (TV)
Zone 3 – Kitchen
Zone 4 – Dining Room
Zone 5 – Screened-In Porch (TV)
Zone 6 – Backyard (TV)
Zone 7 – Garage
Zone 8 – Master Bedroom (TV)
Zone 9 – Master Bathroom/Shower
Zone 10 – Front Porch
Zone 11 – Upstairs Landing
Zone 12 – Guest Room 1 (TV)
Zone 13 – Guest Room 2 (TV)
Zone 14 – Guest Room 3 (TV)
Zone 15 – Office (TV)

With the advent of streaming services and media servers like Plex, It seems like a big HDMI matrix so I can send out any video anywhere I want in my house is more trouble/expense than it is worth. However, in quite a few of these audio zones there will be a TV, likely with crap speakers. So I would prefer to use whatever speaker solution I opt for in these rooms (likely in wall or ceiling) when the TV is in use. Assume the TVs have built in smart functionality or their own Roku sticks or similar if needed. I also will be running a Plex server This means not only will I need to run speaker wire from the Monoprice 6 zone Amps to each speaker spot, I’ll also need to run cabling for ARC/eARC (cat 6e?) from each TV location back to the Monoprice amps.

So would this setup allow for the following actions:
- Me to be watching 3 monitors in the main media room, with audio coming from whichever source I desire. Perhaps I want to listen to a podcast while watching these 3 different TVs on mute.
- Kid 1 to be watching the game on TV in his room, getting audio from in wall speakers
- Kid 1 to decide he’d rather listen to some music stored on my server through the in walls while he watches the game on TV.
- Kid 2 to be listening to different music in the backyard
- The wife to have still different music playing in 4 zones

While I think HEOS would be an okay option, I think ultimately a setup like this will give me more flexibility at a lower cost. I've read quite a few people who say HEOS is clunkier than Sonos during actual use... so if I were to go with either, I'd probably try for a Sonos system. And with all this being said, I am just now reading about HDbaseT which could change everything for me?

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smithsabom

· #4 · Sep 6, 2019 (Edited)

steveklein said:
Thanks for the feedback. I do see what you mean by my current AVRbeing a pre-out for zone 3. As in, I can connect an amplifier there and then power more speakers that way... not actually power speakers by the current AVR. Makes sense.

Would this setup work [consider Denon AVR to be a future Denon AVR with HDMI 2.1, capable of powering a 7.1.4 atmos setup. Could even be a different brand since I don’t at the moment plan .]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theoretical Sources That Must Be Viewable on Any of the 3 Displays in the Main Media Room. I probably won’t actually have 4 or 5 different streaming sticks, but I might…)
Apple TV -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 1
Gaming HTPC -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 2
Xbox One -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 3
Roku Stick -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 4
Chromecast -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 5
Portable Source -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 6
Future Source -----> Denon AVR HDMI In 7
My phone for Bluetooth/Airplay/Casting Video – Connectable to Denon AVR

Theoretical Sources That Must Be Audible in any zone
My phone for Bluetooth/Airplay/Casting Audio
My entire music library (currently stored on the gaming HTPC, but could build a cheap separate box to just house the music)
AM/FM Radio
XM Radio
Various Internet Streaming Sources (Tidal, Pandora, Spotify, etc)

Theoretical Sources That Must Be Viewable in any zone with a display
TV Shows and Movies from Plex server (currently stored on the gaming HTPC; again, could move to a separate box… though I’m assuming I will need whatever box the video is on to be a powerhouse in order to keep multiple devices happy)

Denon AVR (needs video connectivity only to 3 Media Room monitors (and would like the ability to expand this), but housewide audio connectivity)
HDMI Input 1 – Apple TV
HDMI Input 2 – Gaming HTPC
HDMI Input 3 – Xbox One
HDMI Input 4 – Roku Stick
HDMI Input 5 – Chromecast
HDMI Input 6 – Portable Source
HDMI Input 7 – Future Source
HDMI Out 1 ----> Main Display for primary media room viewing in 7.1.4 atmos
HDMI Out 2 -----> 2nd display in media room
HDMI Out 3 -----> 3rd display in media room (need a way to output 3 different video sources to 3 different screens simultaneously. The AVRs I’ve been looking at to this point appear to only have 2 real outputs with the 3rd being a mirror)
Audio Out (what type of cable?) -----> Monoprice 6 zone Controller/Amp (for distributing audio to any zone; Not sure how many zones I will wind up with, but these are stackable so I can have 18 zones if needed)

Theoretical audio zones in my home (probably will start with fewer, but all will be prewired):
Zone 1 – The 7.1.4 Media Room (3 displays)
Zone 2 – The everyday living room (TV)
Zone 3 – Kitchen
Zone 4 – Dining Room
Zone 5 – Screened-In Porch (TV)
Zone 6 – Backyard (TV)
Zone 7 – Garage
Zone 8 – Master Bedroom (TV)
Zone 9 – Master Bathroom/Shower
Zone 10 – Front Porch
Zone 11 – Upstairs Landing
Zone 12 – Guest Room 1 (TV)
Zone 13 – Guest Room 2 (TV)
Zone 14 – Guest Room 3 (TV)
Zone 15 – Office (TV)

With the advent of streaming services and media servers like Plex, It seems like a big HDMI matrix so I can send out any video anywhere I want in my house is more trouble/expense than it is worth. However, in quite a few of these audio zones there will be a TV, likely with crap speakers. So I would prefer to use whatever speaker solution I opt for in these rooms (likely in wall or ceiling) when the TV is in use. Assume the TVs have built in smart functionality or their own Roku sticks or similar if needed. I also will be running a Plex server This means not only will I need to run speaker wire from the Monoprice 6 zone Amps to each speaker spot, I’ll also need to run cabling for ARC/eARC (cat 6e?) from each TV location back to the Monoprice amps.

So would this setup allow for the following actions:
- Me to be watching 3 monitors in the main media room, with audio coming from whichever source I desire. Perhaps I want to listen to a podcast while watching these 3 different TVs on mute.
- Kid 1 to be watching the game on TV in his room, getting audio from in wall speakers
- Kid 1 to decide he’d rather listen to some music stored on my server through the in walls while he watches the game on TV.
- Kid 2 to be listening to different music in the backyard
- The wife to have still different music playing in 4 zones

While I think HEOS would be an okay option, I think ultimately a setup like this will give me more flexibility at a lower cost. I've read quite a few people who say HEOS is clunkier than Sonos during actual use... so if I were to go with either, I'd probably try for a Sonos system. And with all this being said, I am just now reading about HDbaseT which could change everything for me?

this is a lot to chew on... gonna take me a while to digest. however, from an initial pass...

a matrix switcher sounds like the right gear for your solution. (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24180)

perhaps a diagram, might guide you to your solution?

I am thinking that low cost, individual solutions, with one of the inputs that can be pointed to a "global" bus, might work as well...

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