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My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings
Wrong. sssoooooooooo very wrong.


chances are what is there was never heard by the mastering engineer (Circle of Confusion-type issues - I don't know of a mix stage anywhere that is monitoring content below 20 hz - most are lucky to get down to 25hz). We've discussed this topic before, so no desire to rehash. Just thought it was important to clarify context for both of us - this helps :)
We've had film mixers on AVS dropping into threads giving nods that there would be some very low bass for them in specific films.


You might want to browse through here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...mate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html

Also, do you think the tones at the start of edge of tomorrow were put there on accident? There's a 15hz fundamental there, fully synthetic tones.
 

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Need a quick re-assurance. :D

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted. ;)

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
 

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Need a quick re-assurance. :D

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted. ;)

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
You are hereby reassured! :)
 

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The thing to consider it at what level do you call it "clean", and that is not always at the same amount "below SPL limits", for different subs. I consider the range from 60-100hz very important for subs and greatly affects their perceived "sound", even when crossing over "low" like around 60-80hz the subwoofer is still putting out a significant amount up to ~100hz. Even sometimes at surprising amounts below maximum output you can detect differences in sound between subwoofers due to distortion. If you have looked at the databass charts a lot you may notice many subs will be over ~5% THD for in some cases several sweeps below there "max output" in this range. I have done some experiments with at what point is distortion "perceivable" and depending on the harmonics present even as little as 3-5% can be detected in the range over 60hz.
I believe it. Lukily I'm not a bass fiend. Because of room restraints I have to compromise between one or two large subs or four smaller distributed subs.

I prefer smoother response across the listening positions and I can't get a great response with two subs in my room. Music is a priority for me over HT and output of four 15" subs, particularly corner loaded, should do the job.
 

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To quote ME :) "My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings."

Wrong. sssoooooooooo very wrong.
Really??? You mean if we got back and include all of the recordings ever made since the beginning of the art - say, since the late 1800s - we would find even a significant percentage of them have actual musical content below 20 hz? Let's even be realistic in terms of what people actually listen to - say, recordings from the 60s through to today - that again, what percentage do you think would have any real, significant, deliberate musical content below 20 hz? Which recordings are you referring to? I certainly don't claim that there are none, but I'd like to know now you can claim that I am "sssoooooooooo very wrong" about this? (Had to count the number of s's and o's to make sure I was correct in just how wrong I was, lol.)

We've had film mixers on AVS dropping into threads giving nods that there would be some very low bass for them in specific films.
I'm sure there are a few. But I have talked to several mixers out in L.A. recently, and also back in 2012 - 2013 when I was working with the studios and post houses to advocate for adding anamorphic video support to the UHD standard. The consensus was that most below 20 hz content was inadvertent, and in most cases anything below 20 hz was deliberately filtered out. With music recordings, often what can be found on a recording is HVAC and traffic noise leaking into the recording studio. Most of the time the engineer will deliberately filter that out - a common practice to with on set dialogue / foley recordings. In fact, it's one of the first things you do when prepping the tracks.

You might want to browse through here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...mate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html

Also, do you think the tones at the start of edge of tomorrow were put there on accident? There's a 15hz fundamental there, fully synthetic tones.
I have browsed through that list before. Nice list of 242 films (out of many many thousands of films produced), many of which are crap like TRANSFORMERS and MAN OF STEEL. I guess for those crave these types of action blockbusters, the occasional blast of sub-20 hz bass might be quite a thrill. My guess is that much of that bass was put in there deliberately - there are plugins in ProTools that automatically generate extra low bass fundamentals. My point was only that it is not all that likely that that kind of bass content was actually heard on the mix stage. Doesn't mean it isn't there deliberately, or that some really enjoy the extra bass boost when it comes.

If you like it and want it great. And more power to others that do as well.

Speaking of MAN OF STEEL, I finally sat through this incredible over-foley'd and LOUD "SPINAL TAP" of a movie last night - watched the UHD Blu-ray with my daughter. We were both in hysterics - not only at the ludicrous dialogue ("...if history has proven anything...it is that evolution always wins"), but at the ridiculous over the top sound mix as well. Every sound - from someone shutting a door to setting down a coffee pot - was intensely overdone to the point of ludicrousness. An aural rape, if you will. And to top it off I had to endure Hans Zimmer's ridiculous drum circle poundings and simple-minded string ostinatos for almost two and a half hours.

Maybe my MAN OF STEEL hangover is why this has topic has me all worked up today, lol. Sorry about the off-topic rant :)
 

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Need a quick re-assurance. :D

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted. ;)

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
Nice setup :) You could certainly save a bit more money and go with the Crown DCi8|1250n for the M2s.

Go for it! I know this has been a long journey for you - time to start enjoying!
 

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Need a quick re-assurance. :D

I am very close to finally settling down with the following setup and would appreciate some (final) feedback.

Amplifiers: 3 x Crown iTech 5000HD + 1 x Crown DCi 8|300
Center: 1 x JBL M2
Mains: 2 x JBL M2
Side surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Back surrounds: 2 x JBL SCS 8
Ceiling: 4 x JBL SCS 8
Subwoofer: *continue using my single Seaton Sound SubMersive for now*

I am using the SCS 8 for surrounds/ceiling in order to save some cost over the 7 Series and also to ensure I have speakers that can "endure" my high SPL requirements. I tend to go crazy with the volume when permitted. ;)

By the way, I realize I could use any amplifier for the eight SCS 8 speakers but chose the Crown amplifier because I want to keep everything Harman as much as possible and, secondly, I know it will work well the speakers.
 

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Missing measurements plus give it a break

The Data-bass.com list of tested subwoofers includes:

Funk Audio
HSU Research
JBL
JTR
PowerSound Audio
Rythmic Audio
SVS
Velodyne

and

Others...

I don't see Seaton listed. Please let me know if I missed it. The absence of hard measurements for a brand is, and has been, a disqualifier for me. Subs can be measured and characterized. Where are the measurements? Are measurements posted on another site?

Another question: Often subwoofer sites turn into; "Mine is bigger that yours" chains of posts, just as has happened in this thread. It isn't clear what the M2 site did to deserve such treatment.
 

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The Data-bass.com list of tested subwoofers includes:

Funk Audio
HSU Research
JBL
JTR
PowerSound Audio
Rythmic Audio
SVS
Velodyne

and

Others...

I don't see Seaton listed. Please let me know if I missed it. The absence of hard measurements for a brand is, and has been, a disqualifier for me. Subs can be measured and characterized. Where are the measurements? Are measurements posted on another site?

Another question: Often subwoofer sites turn into; "Mine is bigger that yours" chains of posts, just as has happened in this thread. It isn't clear what the M2 site did to deserve such treatment.
Here is a review of the SubMersive: http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/subwoofers/seaton-sound-submersive-hpi-subwoofer/
 

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rofl, figured if josh labeled something 120db @ 50hz it would be at 120db...

anyway, the 120v sweep for the 18" is actually at 120db, the 21 at 120.5.. distortion on the 21 was a bit less than 2% under the 18 at that point...

If we compare the 18" 240v 120db sweep to the 21" 115db sweep at 20hz, where they align at 103db, they're like 0.3-0.4% apart around 11% THD. Considering the 18 is working harder to hit those output levels...

Anyway, it's irrelevant if the UH woofer is in the 21 now... That woofer looks impressive. I was just going off memory on my original statement, which looking at the data again, I likely based off comparing the GUJ18 on the powersoft to the fw21, which isn't really a fair comparison.

Are you going to send off a UH21 for Josh to test at any point? The other drivers weren't really interesting me due to motor strength, but that one has plenty.
The 120db(and for that matter all of them, 90,95,100 etc) label for the sweeps are not intended to really mean anything in relation to comparing different units tested. The nominal sweep levels are simply for reference to provide a way to connect all the charts so you can look at output level for a sweep and then when you go look at the compression and distortion graphs you know what line represents the values at what output sweep level. Every unit behaves differently at high output and with different frequency response so the actual output will be different in most cases for the same "nominal" level. So the only way to really compare things is to cross reference the actual output at a given frequency then go see what it was doing for compression and distortion at that output and frequency.

A very big factor in distortion, and maximum output, under about 40hz is enclosure size, you will find most high end sub woofers are quite similar as far as how much you can get in a given space, there is kind of a ceiling and as you get closer to it the gains shrink, already the 18.0 pushes things about as far as most other well designed subs as far as how much output you can get from that size enclosure at a certain distortion level, the 21.0 is the same size and it takes twice the power more than twice the motor strength to get a little bit better distortion given equal output, and while it is "only" comparable in distortion at the limits of the 18.0, the 21.0 can go a decent amount further with a bit more distortion, physics is right up to the wall with it. Considering the 18.0 at most frequencies is still under the range of perceivable distortion in the low end the 21.0 can push things a good bit further with the brute force method afforded by the power and motor strength, without having "excessive" distortion before it hits its hard limit(the CEA distortion limited burst numbers confirm this as well). The driver used in it is designed for optimizing that size space and power, so the driver and box limitations happen right around the same time, we have tested it in twice the size enclosure and it does not improve things more than a marginal amount. Confirming that the enclosure size is the limit when the UH21v1 is put in the same box with the same power it only has marginal improvement in low end distortion, but it does not handle the power with quite as little compression and has less top end output, so the 21.0 still uses the same driver as tested by Databass. However, with the UH21v1 put it in about 50% larger box and it offers massive improvements in distortion and about 2db more output under 25hz.

We are working on getting a UH21v1 tested, but not sure if it will be this season or not. FYI the newly released version of the GUJ drivers have about 5% higher BL than the ones tested by DataBass, its not much but it allows for a little smaller boxes and improves the ultra low end distortion a bit.
 

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The 120db(and for that matter all of them, 90,95,100 etc) label for the sweeps are not intended to really mean anything in relation to comparing different units tested. The nominal sweep levels are simply for reference to provide a way to connect all the charts so you can look at output level for a sweep and then when you go look at the compression and distortion graphs you know what line represents the values at what output sweep level. Every unit behaves differently at high output and with different frequency response so the actual output will be different in most cases for the same "nominal" level. So the only way to really compare things is to cross reference the actual output at a given frequency then go see what it was doing for compression and distortion at that output and frequency.

Yeah, I know, but normally they're not labeled with a frequency, in this case they said [email protected] didn't realize it was just a ballpark figure.. plus I was a wee bit intoxicated and didn't care to look at the full sweeps to check.


We are working on getting a UH21v1 tested, but not sure if it will be this season or not. FYI the newly released version of the GUJ drivers have about 5% higher BL than the ones tested by DataBass, its not much but it allows for a little smaller boxes and improves the ultra low end distortion a bit.

Neat...

so your xmax figures for the UH, is that geometric or klippel based or what? xmech at 40, is that suspension limit or interference?
 

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The Data-bass.com list of tested subwoofers includes:

Funk Audio
HSU Research
JBL
JTR
PowerSound Audio
Rythmic Audio
SVS
Velodyne

and

Others...

I don't see Seaton listed. Please let me know if I missed it. The absence of hard measurements for a brand is, and has been, a disqualifier for me. Subs can be measured and characterized. Where are the measurements? Are measurements posted on another site?

Another question: Often subwoofer sites turn into; "Mine is bigger that yours" chains of posts, just as has happened in this thread. It isn't clear what the M2 site did to deserve such treatment.
Seaton uses top notch amps and great woofers, his subs are what you'd expect for a sealed sub with plenty of power in that displacement range. There's no real mystery about it
 

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To quote ME :) "My point in this regard is that a) there is very little content below 20 hz in the vast majority of recordings."
Depends what you're watching or listening to. Almost all current movies have content below 20hz. A good portion of the music I listen to does as well.

Really??? You mean if we got back and include all of the recordings ever made since the beginning of the art - say, since the late 1800s - we would find even a significant percentage of them have actual musical content below 20 hz? Let's even be realistic in terms of what people actually listen to - say, recordings from the 60s through to today - that again, what percentage do you think would have any real, significant, deliberate musical content below 20 hz? Which recordings are you referring to? I certainly don't claim that there are none, but I'd like to know now you can claim that I am "sssoooooooooo very wrong" about this? (Had to count the number of s's and o's to make sure I was correct in just how wrong I was, lol.)
Let's just include silent films while we're at it.... because that's relevant lol....

Here are some spectrograms from musical content that I captured and had handy. This was captured w/ a mic and my system is highpassed around 14hz with -3db at 11hz, so there may be more content below that just isn't showing as well. No point reproducing that with a concrete slab. Can't feel it.. That's what the transducers are for ;) Just won't show up in a mic'd spectrograph.










I'm sure there are a few. But I have talked to several mixers out in L.A. recently, and also back in 2012 - 2013 when I was working with the studios and post houses to advocate for adding anamorphic video support to the UHD standard. The consensus was that most below 20 hz content was inadvertent, and in most cases anything below 20 hz was deliberately filtered out. With music recordings, often what can be found on a recording is HVAC and traffic noise leaking into the recording studio. Most of the time the engineer will deliberately filter that out - a common practice to with on set dialogue / foley recordings. In fact, it's one of the first things you do when prepping the tracks.

I have browsed through that list before. Nice list of 242 films (out of many many thousands of films produced), many of which are crap like TRANSFORMERS and MAN OF STEEL. I guess for those crave these types of action blockbusters, the occasional blast of sub-20 hz bass might be quite a thrill. My guess is that much of that bass was put in there deliberately - there are plugins in ProTools that automatically generate extra low bass fundamentals. My point was only that it is not all that likely that that kind of bass content was actually heard on the mix stage. Doesn't mean it isn't there deliberately, or that some really enjoy the extra bass boost when it comes.

If you like it and want it great. And more power to others that do as well.

Speaking of MAN OF STEEL, I finally sat through this incredible over-foley'd and LOUD "SPINAL TAP" of a movie last night - watched the UHD Blu-ray with my daughter. We were both in hysterics - not only at the ludicrous dialogue ("...if history has proven anything...it is that evolution always wins"), but at the ridiculous over the top sound mix as well. Every sound - from someone shutting a door to setting down a coffee pot - was intensely overdone to the point of ludicrousness. An aural rape, if you will. And to top it off I had to endure Hans Zimmer's ridiculous drum circle poundings and simple-minded string ostinatos for almost two and a half hours.

Maybe my MAN OF STEEL hangover is why this has topic has me all worked up today, lol. Sorry about the off-topic rant :)
Hey, never said all the films were good, just that there was content there.... There are clearly two camps here, one which is putting content there and is aware, and the other which is either filtering or unaware... Most movies coming out are pretty meh, though there are some good flicks in that list.

It did say "Demo Scene Films (Films that have specific scenes that push the bass limits but not much else)" lol.

There was another thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...master-list-bass-movies-frequency-charts.html that also had a good bit of info and graphs.


data-bass forums also have lots of threads for new releases and content analysis. There were 2-3 other threads like the one here that I linked which the OP stopped maintaining and someone else took the reigns and started new threads after...

Anyway, below 20hz, loads of content... I'm seeing it more and more in shows lately too, not just movies.
 

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Yeah, I know, but normally they're not labeled with a frequency, in this case they said [email protected] didn't realize it was just a ballpark figure.. plus I was a wee bit intoxicated and didn't care to look at the full sweeps to check.





Neat...

so your xmax figures for the UH, is that geometric or klippel based or what? xmech at 40, is that suspension limit or interference?
I did not mean they are a ballpark figure, they are a true "number" and referenced to 50hz. They are so you can get a baseline to measure the compression, starting with setting the gains to produce the baseline at about 90db at 50hz with the system being tested. Then for the tests he then increases the gain by 5db and runs a sweep, repeating until the system is out of steam(sometimes the last sweep is less than 5 db increment if he felt it would not handle a full 5db, or ran the full 5 and aborted due to distress of the system). However much the output does not go up by the exact amount of signal level increase across the board compared to that baseline, is called compression and shown on the compression magnitude chart, because the output "should" have gone up that much based on the increased signal level. So for a 120db sweep that means the signal level was increased a total of 30db from the baseline measurement and if the actual output only went up say 29db, then you have 1db compression, and this amount will vary with frequency and of course from system to system, but it has to be compared to the baselines output for each frequency, so if a system produced say 80db at 20hz on the 90db sweep then the 120db sweep means it should have +30, so 110db at 20hz, any amount less than that is the amount it was compressing.

Our Xmax is rated at 70% BL, as measured. Xmech is rated at the "knee" of where the suspension Cms figure starts to drop, based on measuring the Cms curve, simply put the Xmech is rated for as soon as the suspension just starts to significantly tighten. Compared to most this is a conservative way to rate it, but I like things to be rated to what it can be safely taken to with zero chance of harm, not to the point it will self destruct. When under use it can stretch a few mm more. Hard limit of the motor parts is right about 45mm for the UH and GUJ series.
 

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I did not mean they are a ballpark figure, they are a true "number" and referenced to 50hz. They are so you can get a baseline to measure the compression, starting with setting the gains to produce the baseline at about 90db at 50hz with the system being tested. Then for the tests he then increases the gain by 5db and runs a sweep, repeating until the system is out of steam(sometimes the last sweep is less than 5 db increment if he felt it would not handle a full 5db, or ran the full 5 and aborted due to distress of the system). However much the output does not go up by the exact amount of signal level increase across the board compared to that baseline, is called compression and shown on the compression magnitude chart, because the output "should" have gone up that much based on the increased signal level. So for a 120db sweep that means the signal level was increased a total of 30db from the baseline measurement and if the actual output only went up say 29db, then you have 1db compression, and this amount will vary with frequency and of course from system to system, but it has to be compared to the baselines output for each frequency, so if a system produced say 80db at 20hz on the 90db sweep then the 120db sweep means it should have +30, so 110db at 20hz, any amount less than that is the amount it was compressing.
Yes, I understand this, and it's quite clear on the compression sweep page/graphs, but when you're only looking at the distortion page/grpahs, and the sweep is labeled [email protected], it's a bit misleading as it lacks the full context.

Our Xmax is rated at 70% BL, as measured. Xmech is rated at the "knee" of where the suspension Cms figure starts to drop, based on measuring the Cms curve, simply put the Xmech is rated for as soon as the suspension just starts to significantly tighten. Compared to most this is a conservative way to rate it, but I like things to be rated to what it can be safely taken to with zero chance of harm, not to the point it will self destruct. When under use it can stretch a few mm more. Hard limit of the motor parts is right about 45mm for the UH and GUJ series.
That's the best way to rate it, but so many mfrs do it various ways... Will the suspension allow the vc to bottom out in the motor?
 

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Yes, I understand this, and it's quite clear on the compression sweep page/graphs, but when you're only looking at the distortion page/grpahs, and the sweep is labeled [email protected], it's a bit misleading as it lacks the full context.



That's the best way to rate it, but so many mfrs do it various ways... Will the suspension allow the vc to bottom out in the motor?
Agreed, Josh and I have had a few discussions on ways to make comparing distortion easier, its very complicated task. They are working on a whole new site that should make some things a little easier, although I am not privy to all the plans.

Based on the measurements/limits of each part the VC will/should be able to bottom in the motor before the suspension is damaged, but I have tuned the limit points of each so it is very difficult to get there, I said "should" because in fact with a complete assembled driver I have never been able to hard bottom one, and I don't think anyone else has either.
 

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Agreed, Josh and I have had a few discussions on ways to make comparing distortion easier, its very complicated task. They are working on a whole new site that should make some things a little easier, although I am not privy to all the plans.

Based on the measurements/limits of each part the VC will/should be able to bottom in the motor before the suspension is damaged, but I have tuned the limit points of each so it is very difficult to get there, I said "should" because in fact with a complete assembled driver I have never been able to hard bottom one, and I don't think anyone else has either.
Can you share an impedance graph for the UH21?
 

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My understanding is that you would use the Mini-DSP to simply set the delays, and then let ARC do the correction for all subs combined. Couple of good links here re: Anthem ARC and multiple subs. I wouldn't recommend DIRAC over ARC for sub correction / blending:

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/anthem-arc-room-eq-interview

Anthem also has a great FAQ on their site - touches on multiple subs briefly, but it reflects a wonderful science-based, myth-busting approach to audio electronics in general (amps and pre-amps):

https://www.anthemav.com/support/faq.php
Not only can you set the delays with MiniDSP, but, if you have the headroom, you can set up LT's for extended low frequency response out of sealed subs.

You can set a house curve if you prefer that type of bass after ARC does it's thing, or just smooth out the MLP.

There's really quite a bit you can do with MiniDSP and it's easy to use. Just take a ton of measurements/time.
 

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I believe it. Lukily I'm not a bass fiend. Because of room restraints I have to compromise between one or two large subs or four smaller distributed subs.

I prefer smoother response across the listening positions and I can't get a great response with two subs in my room. Music is a priority for me over HT and output of four 15" subs, particularly corner loaded, should do the job.
4 LMS ultra's work pretty well corner loaded! I'm going to be bummed if one ever blows.

You'd be really well off with 4-18" Dayton Ultimax though and SP amps. Or 4 15's. Kits are easy to assemble, but if you have the money...

I'm ready to see where you end up
 
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