[Gooddoc]

On the broader question of "screwing things up" by correcting full range, I see very good arguments both ways, but with a really good speaker with well controlled--nearly constant--directivity, I worry much less about it. Since the reflected sound is so similar to the direct sound, the software won't try and correct a speaker directivity issue, screwing up the direct sound in the process, because the speaker doesn't have any directivity issues the software might measure as a problem and mis-diagnose. As long as it doesn't try to correct every narrow dip or bump (as XT32 doesn't seem to, I can't speak to others) the broad changes to the target curve will act more like a tone control of sorts. Of course an inappropriate curve could sure mess things up, just as you could if you went nuts with a set of tone control knobs.

Agreed. The ability to discriminate SQ issues decreases with increasing channel count and although I find RC detrimental if I'm critically listening in 2 channel(depending on the RC brand), the latest versions are so good that it takes some seriously critical listening to hear the problems - even in 2 channel. With the increased channel counts of HT, I believe the benefits can often outweigh any of the negatives.

Just like distortion and resonances, they only matter if you can hear them.

 

[Gooddoc]

Why compromise in a theater? EQ the LCR for highest sound quality and EQ the surrounds speakers full range and make sure they timbre match the fronts. This will probably require some broad and gentle filters in the high frequencies.


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As I replied above, it's not about compromise. It's whether or not you can actually hear the issues introduced by RC with 11+ channels in the mix. As was mentioned above, I have found that with a speaker like the M2 minimal correction is done with the RC systems. It's only noticeable with critical two channel listening in my experience.

Of course every person's individual room characteristics, speaker types, RC brand, and ears will be a factor. This is necessarily a discussion of generalities, there will always be exceptions.

 

[m. zillch]

By writing the post above, you are assuming that Auto EQ systems always do the right thing?

FYI, I do agree that it can be beneficial to add EQ above Shroeder but it should be done with care. EQ'ing fullrange to match a target curve, which many AutoEQ systems do, is not doing it with care.

Modern versions of Audyssey have an option to let you set the target curve yourself if you download their app. I realize not all correction systems do though, true.

 

[Balbolito]

If it is true that no EQ above Shroeder is necessary then an auto room correct system won't apply any. Does having it examine those frequencies muck them up? NO.

That's my take and I realize I'm in the minority.

Modern versions of Audyssey have an option to let you set the target curve yourself if you download their app. I realize not all correction systems do though, true.

Yup you are right just downloaded it for my phone (android) and will try it out for sure once i set up everything in my HT. it's only 20$

 

[beastaudio]

Why compromise in a theater? EQ the LCR for highest sound quality and EQ the surrounds speakers full range and make sure they timbre match the fronts. This will probably require some broad and gentle filters in the high frequencies.


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If the front stage is done right, with proper room treatment throughout, which I imagine you have done, then REQ software won't have to make but very small changes above schroeder when you start with a quality speaker such as we are discussing. Enter dirac/trinnov who both not only let you create your own target curve, but can allow you limit the amount of actual full range correction can be done to x dB or whatever. I found after some trial and error that only make small adjustments no more than 3dB, and shaping the target curve to be very close to the native curve of my front stage, which was very good to begin with, full range EQ works both for 2 channel critical listening as well as HT multichannel listening.

By writing the post above, you are assuming that Auto EQ systems always do the right thing?

FYI, I do agree that it can be beneficial to add EQ above Shroeder but it should be done with care. EQ'ing fullrange to match a target curve, which many AutoEQ systems do, is not doing it with care.

I do still agree wholeheartedly with this and that MOST REQ doesn't go about things in the right way. Seems Dirac, Trinnov, and even the new ARC genesis are in fact going about things properly. I know audyssey has the app now to help with limiting and target curve manipulation, but I still didn't like the results when I had it on my old 7705

 

[luvthefloyd]

I think i've gotten the M2 bug. Reading reviews and specs it sounds like a spectacular speaker without the "audiophile" price. I have some questions but admit I haven't read the entire thread.

I'm transitioning from 5.1 HT to 2.1 with music being the focus. That said I'd still like to use the speakers for tv/movies. It seems like most M2 users on this thread are focused on HT. Are there any users with a similar thesis to mine? Can you speak to the quality of the speaker for primarily music?

Im planning on the Crown/outboard processing route. Is BSS the only option? How difficult is setup going to be for someone who is tech savvy but inexperienced with this kind of equipment/software?

In planning on a new 2 channel audio pre. How difficult will it be to feed audio from Apple tv, and blu-ray back into the system? Will the audio quality be diminished since I'm not using a HT pre?

Can the BSS be connected to a consumer preamp?

Im doing a large remodel on my house soon. Would placing the M2's inside cabinetry (transparent cloth fronts) have a bad effect on the sound? I know its always preferable to float the speakers into the room but in this case its just not possible.

Thanks all.

 

[Rex Anderson]

The M2 was developed with music in mind and is used by professional recording, mixing and mastering engineers. It is a professional full range monitor that many consider to be one of the finest. It is an excellent speaker for music and Home Theater.

Why do you want to use 2.1 for music if you still want to be able to do TV/movies? Phantom center is not ideal. You will be missing the center channel and surrounds. I was stuck with 3.0 for a long time and am finally able to have 5.2 again. I really missed having surrounds and could not imagine not having a center channel for TV/movies. Dr. Toole says not using a center actually diminishes dialogue clarity. The most prominent thing in TV and film mixes is dialog. I listen to music in both stereo and surround and enjoy surround for TV/movies. You say "2.1". Most HT designers recommend at least two subs these days; it helps smooth out bass response in the room. Have you read Dr. Toole's book or the information on the companion website? https://routledgetextbooks.com/textbooks/9781138921368/

You can control M2's with some Crown amps or use a BSS and any amps. You need one or the other because the M2 anechoic data is in them. Most Crown/JBL Synthesis amps for the M2 have noisy fans. People choose to use the BSS if they don't have an equipment room for the amp. If you have to locate the amp in a remote location, you have long speaker cable runs.

Your sources (Apple TV and Blu-ray) feed the preamp so you need to consider how that will be accomplished (are there HDMI inputs on the preamp?). The output of the preamp feeds the BSS that feeds the amps. M2's are passive and require active bi-amping, BSS or amps control processing and crossover functions. Two channels of amp are required for each speaker (woofer and compression driver). Placing M2's in a cabinet is not ideal. You might consider using SCL-2's (designed to be in wall speakers). M2s were engineered to be used in 2 pi or 4 pi space, where the SCL2 was designed to be used in a wall. They have crossovers built in and would make your setup much easier by eliminating the need for the BSS processor/crossover and four channels of power amp vs. two. https://trueaudio.com/st_spcs1.htm

Not sure why you are building things into a cabinet. They are not ideal for audio reproduction and can limit your ability to grow/expand. I have a friend who did one a few years ago. He wanted to get a bigger center channel recently but can't. What if you want a bigger TV down the line? How big is the cabinet and what size TV will it accommodate? Could you elaborate on or show drawings/pictures of your "cabinet"? An empty box cabinet is a nightmare for sound.

Have you considered Revel vs the M2 and have you seen the thread that compares them?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...iewed-speakers-ever-made-14.html#post54632024

John Schuermann says, after many hours comparing SCLs to M2s to Revels he finds the SCL / M2 speakers have more prominent direct sound and sound “drier” than the Revels. Revels sound silkier, smoother on the top end vs. the JBLs. The SCL2s sound more spacious than the M2s, likely due to the waveguide design. He likes how close mic’d brass and percussion sound with the JBLs, but prefers everything else on the Salon2s. The SCL2s sound more spacious and open than the M2s, but aren’t full range down to 20 Hz, which is not and issue if you are using subs. The second most prominent thing after dialogue in any film mix is music.

FWIW, setting up M2s is complex and may be beyond what you want to deal with.

 

[Floyd Toole]

I think i've gotten the M2 bug. Reading reviews and specs it sounds like a spectacular speaker without the "audiophile" price. I have some questions but admit I haven't read the entire thread.

I'm transitioning from 5.1 HT to 2.1 with music being the focus. That said I'd still like to use the speakers for tv/movies. It seems like most M2 users on this thread are focused on HT. Are there any users with a similar thesis to mine? Can you speak to the quality of the speaker for primarily music?

Im planning on the Crown/outboard processing route. Is BSS the only option? How difficult is setup going to be for someone who is tech savvy but inexperienced with this kind of equipment/software?

In planning on a new 2 channel audio pre. How difficult will it be to feed audio from Apple tv, and blu-ray back into the system? Will the audio quality be diminished since I'm not using a HT pre?

Can the BSS be connected to a consumer preamp?

Im doing a large remodel on my house soon. Would placing the M2's inside cabinetry (transparent cloth fronts) have a bad effect on the sound? I know its always preferable to float the speakers into the room but in this case its just not possible.

Thanks all.

A personal comment. The M2 is indeed one of the great loudspeakers of this time - it is on the cover of the 3rd edition of my book, after all. It performs superbly in stereo or multichannel systems.

However, for the life of me I don't know why in 2019 you are regressing to two channels, when there is an ever increasing supply of excellent multichannel music, video concerts and movies. Most music is delivered in stereo format - unfortunately - but adding tasteful upmixing in 5.1, 7.1 or immersive systems is, in my experience, a significant improvement on raw stereo. It varies from recording to recording, of course. Currently I find Auro-3D upmixing to be highly rewarding, and it allows for subtle adjustments.

Having two M2s up front is an excellent start. Add comparably good center and surround loudspeakers and your quality of listening will be improved. However, don't skimp on the surround speakers - they need to be similarly good, but much smaller. Fortunately there are choices.

A large screen video presentation of a well-recorded multichannel concert is high entertainment. And then there are movies.

I personally don't have M2s, only because of a visual preference for Revel Salon2s in my installation. They are comparably good sounding. This is my system:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gg5wnct6010gvuq/3-Part Toole Home Theater 2018.pdf?dl=0

Whatever you end up doing, a pair of M2s would make a good entry point

EDIT: I see that Rex Anderson responded as I was composing. His thoughts are on target.

 

[m. zillch]

The common notion, often pushed by marketers and the audio magazines which they advertise in, that "optimal 2ch. audio speakers and home theater speakers are different animals" is complete bull pucky. What makes for a state-of-the-art, front, left speaker for music is exactly the same as what one wants for an optimal, front, left speaker for movies. Same goes for the right speaker, obviously, and the M2s fit the bill.

[Psst, those drivers in the cabinets, and the electrons in the speaker wire? Heck, they don't even know if there is a video display showing moving images concurrently to what they're doing, so how could they perform "differently"? ]

 

[Roger Dressler]

Any advice for a relay? maybe a link or a name that i could look up.

as in my previous setup it was way easier, 3 emotivas connected with an emotiva trigger device then just a cable to my processor.

I use this device which has a separate circuit to drive the relay coils, so it's very little load for the 12V trigger. Amazon reports it is not in stock, but it may give you some ideas.

Link to AVS post

 

[Balbolito]

I use this device which has a separate circuit to drive the relay coils, so it's very little load for the 12V trigger. Amazon reports it is not in stock, but it may give you some ideas.

Link to AVS post

Thank you Roger, appreciate it.

I wouldn't know how to use the relay with it honestly lol.

Is there a turn key solution or something more plug and play? this is a bit confusing to me as i never tried it honestly. even never bought a relay.

 

[Roger Dressler]

Thank you Roger, appreciate it.

I wouldn't know how to use the relay with it honestly lol.

Is there a turn key solution or something more plug and play? this is a bit confusing to me as i never tried it honestly. even never bought a relay.

The unit I referred is indeed plug and play.

You connect the 12V output of the processor to the green terminals of the unit. Yes, that requires stripping the 2-conductor cable and attaching the connector with a small screwdriver. Then plug the AC cables from the power amps to one or two of the "active on" switched outlets (can use an outlet strip to derive as many outputs as you need).

You can ignore the third outlet as it is is wired as "active off" which simply means it provides power when the other two are off. Can use it to extinguish a room light when the system is turned off, for example.

To you "relay savvy" folks, there is a SPDT relay in the box, and the NO terminal feeds two outlets, and the NC terminal feeds one.

 

[JonasHansen]

There is a third M2-configuration option which is often forgotten. Apart from the Crown amps and BSS Soundwebs, one can use the JBL Intonato: https://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/monitor-controllers/intonato-24

Disclaimer: I have not used it so cannot comment on the end-result. Looking at the manual it looks to be simpler than a BSS Soundweb solution.

 

[Balbolito]

The unit I referred is indeed plug and play.

You connect the 12V output of the processor to the green terminals of the unit. Yes, that requires stripping the 2-conductor cable and attaching the connector with a small screwdriver. Then plug the AC cables from the power amps to one or two of the "active on" switched outlets (can use an outlet strip to derive as many outputs as you need).

You can ignore the third outlet as it is is wired as "active off" which simply means it provides power when the other two are off. Can use it to extinguish a room light when the system is turned off, for example.

To you "relay savvy" folks, there is a SPDT relay in the box, and the NO terminal feeds two outlets, and the NC terminal feeds one.

Got it thanks! looks fairly easy to use.

But it's sold out, would you know where i could possibly find them?

Regards

 

[Roger Dressler]

Got it thanks! looks fairly easy to use.

But it's sold out, would you know where i could possibly find them?

I went to the chat area of their website, and they report it will be available again in about 2 weeks.

 

[Balbolito]

I went to the chat area of their website, and they report it will be available again in about 2 weeks.

Thanks! appreciate it

 

[Dartw]

Is the M2 Discontinued from Harman?

I got a reply from a Scandinavian dealer today that it is not longer possible to order the M2 from Harman!

Is this correct???!!

Is the model discontinued?

Does this mean that there is a M2 mkII or an M1 ready to launch?

If not it seams like a big loss for both HT and pro audio...

 

[Rex Anderson]

I got a reply from a Scandinavian dealer today that it is not longer possible to order the M2 from Harman! Is this correct???!! Is the model discontinued? Does this mean that there is a M2 mkII or an M1 ready to launch? If not it seams like a big loss for both HT and pro audio...

Just spoke with our rep about this. He has not heard anything. We addressed this not too long ago. Not sure what is going on but I'll keep digging.


Update: They are still current but might be back ordered. This is info from Harman, they are not discontinued.

 

[Frohlich]

Well, I have had the M2s up and running for a few days now. Here are some impressions:

Pros:
They truly sound glorious. So clear, precise and effortless. I watched Godzilla and Alita Battle Angle and both movies sounded glorious in the new room. I also watched quite a bit of Dave Mathews and Tim Reynolds blu ray concert as the recording quality is top notch and this sounded SSOOOOOO good.

Cons:
These were not that easy to set-up for me. Certainly not the plug and play I am use to but nothing crazy difficult either. Totally worth it but here are some obstacles I ran into.
*8/600 DCI N amp is 20 amp socket with a different pin configuration so I had to buy converter to 15 amp (traditional grounded outlet pin configuration)
*Had to buy cheapy PC Laptop since my family is all apple laptops and you can't use the Harman software with apple products.
*Setting up the configuration in Audio Architect took me a few tries to make sure it recognized the amp on the network and to make sure I set-up the LF and HF plus bridged the amps correctly (once you do it the first time its easy after that but this is not Apple software experience where its so intuitive, the process is from 1972).
*I was getting some buzzing from the speakers and thought it might be a ground issue and I used a cheater plug to rule out it wasn't a grounding issue. Ended up having to play with the attenuators on the back of the amp to get the buzz to go away.

 

[JonasHansen]

M2's have 120x100 dispersion. Do you know how many dB's down? Procella for example specs their P8 as -6db at 1.5khz at 80 degrees.

Is their such a detailed spec for the M2's?

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