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684 Posts
I own 2 F113's but was interested in how the rythmik F15 compares?
I realize the big price difference.
But need another sub.
Opinions?
I realize the big price difference.
But need another sub.
Opinions?
JL F113 vs rythmik F15
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1 - 20 of 27 Posts
For what you have invested in the F113's, just snatch up a rythmik and see what it has to offer your setup, not like its going to break the bank here....
I get my 18'' drivers tomorrow and I have a bunch of 15"s running now, I have been told that running different size drivers muddies up the sound, but I'll be giving it a shot to see how the SQ turns out....
I have a F112 that I was running with my DIY 15" TC2000 and it was unreal the output and added bass I got in my small bedroom. But it did seem to change the clarity of the sound from what my JL offers... these are really high end drivers I'm using, comparable or better then the JL drivers BTW...
I get my 18'' drivers tomorrow and I have a bunch of 15"s running now, I have been told that running different size drivers muddies up the sound, but I'll be giving it a shot to see how the SQ turns out....
I have a F112 that I was running with my DIY 15" TC2000 and it was unreal the output and added bass I got in my small bedroom. But it did seem to change the clarity of the sound from what my JL offers... these are really high end drivers I'm using, comparable or better then the JL drivers BTW...
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4,872 Posts
I wish there was more info about these f15's... Right now dual f15's cost the same as many of the mid/high subs available online ($1600)
King, I posted a reply to you question on the Ascend forum, and like what Warp says here.
There is plenty of information on Rythmik kits in the DIY type forums. Rythmik more recently started selling assembled subs, which is why you don't see a lot of information about them in these forums.
King, I posted a reply to you question on the Ascend forum, and like what Warp says here.
There is plenty of information on Rythmik kits in the DIY type forums. Rythmik more recently started selling assembled subs, which is why you don't see a lot of information about them in these forums.
The f113 simply moves more air,so output in the 20-80Hz range will be higher with the f113. Extension edge ,a slight one goes to the Rythmik.Not many 15" drivers can move the amount of air the beefed up W7 in the f113 can.
The f113 is overall a better(all around design and execution,parts quality) product,but it also costs alot more.
The Rythmik is a better value for the dollar.
The f113 is overall a better(all around design and execution,parts quality) product,but it also costs alot more.
The Rythmik is a better value for the dollar.
Joined
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684 Posts
For what you have invested in the F113's, just snatch up a rythmik and see what it has to offer your setup, not like its going to break the bank here....
That's the old King Titus![]()
The New Titus had a rough year in 2008.
Looking to save on all levels.
Sub will be used for only music.
I negotiated for a new F112 $1850.
So the price is getting closer.
My 2 F113's are in my HT room for movies mostly
Mayham,
I am interested in your opinion regarding the extension filter setting. Can you hear the difference between 14/20/28hz with hi/mid/low damping setting? The original intention of the design is to provide tradeoff between extension and output. I am wondering in your opinion if the switches have a reason to be there. BTW, I asked several of my customers too. So you can view this as a survey.
Thanks.
Brian
Mayham,
I am interested in your opinion regarding the extension filter setting. Can you hear the difference between 14/20/28hz with hi/mid/low damping setting? The original intention of the design is to provide tradeoff between extension and output. I am wondering in your opinion if the switches have a reason to be there. BTW, I asked several of my customers too. So you can view this as a survey.
Thanks.
Brian
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4,872 Posts
Will dual f15's match the output of a single svs pb13-ultra?
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610 Posts
Dual SE-15's are more than enough in my 3600 cubic foot room.
Dual SE-15's are more than enough in my 3600 cubic foot room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv /forum/post/15492807
For what you have invested in the F113's, just snatch up a rythmik and see what it has to offer your setup, not like its going to break the bank here....
That's the old King Titus![]()
The New Titus had a rough year in 2008.
Looking to save on all levels.
Sub will be used for only music.
I negotiated for a new F112 $1850.
So the price is getting closer.
My 2 F113's are in my HT room for movies mostly
Ahhh I see.....
What size is your room there King...? I would really like to hear a comparison between my F112 and the Rythmik, which I could arrange. Without ever hearing the Rythmik just yet, I can tell you without a doubt that the F112 is the best sub I have ever heard for music, the upper bass of the JL is far better then the TC2000 drivers in this respect, and helps to blend with the mains more seemlessly its just amazing. The Rythmik driver is basically a modified TC1000 driver, so I would suggest that the upper bass will be very similar to my DIY subs.
My F112 is in a 1800^3 room and is more then ample for HT and music for certain.
In fact the guys at JL seem to prefer the F112's for this very characteristic, better upper bass performance then the F113.
I can't remember who at JL in one of the Fathom threads that was that has dual F112's and prefers them over the F113.
Hi King,
I'm just curious: don't you like the f113 for music as well?
I'm just curious: don't you like the f113 for music as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv /forum/post/15492807
For what you have invested in the F113's, just snatch up a rythmik and see what it has to offer your setup, not like its going to break the bank here....
That's the old King Titus![]()
The New Titus had a rough year in 2008.
Looking to save on all levels.
Sub will be used for only music.
I negotiated for a new F112 $1850.
So the price is getting closer.
My 2 F113's are in my HT room for movies mostly
I have to protest that
![]()
Our driver is not a modified TC1000.
There are two important refinement we have made to our drivers over TC drivers. First, our driver has lower moving mass/lower voice coil inductance over than stock TC drivers. Both the voice coils and aluminum shorting rings were supplied by us. We just borrow TC's motor design. Our ealiest servo drivers are made by NCA. During the sampling process, Thilo forgot to put in shorting ring in the first sample. I put it in my servo sub, it sounded very bad. He then made the second sample and he glued the aluminum ring to the wrong side. He glued it to the back plate. I thought he would have known it should be glued to the top plate to be effective (do I have to explain that to him?) I didn't break any of those samples to find out all these. It was all based on sound first followed by a simple measurement of inductance.
The second refinement is servo. I was selling both servo and nonservo for a good 3-4 years. I decide to drop the nonservo line completely. There is no point of selling nonservo kits when servo kits are only $$$ more expensive. I can only sell single digit units of nonservo kits compared to hundreds of servo kits. The improvement from the servo is very obvious. The bass is not only tighter, it is also more articulate. I have one customer tried both of them and with a side-by-side comparison between servo and non-servo. While the nonservo sounded nice with the low moving mass/low inductance design features, the bass from the servo is "tight and sweet".
I don't have a TC2000, but a friend of mine send me his measurement. From that impedance plot, the impedance minimal point sits at 60hz for a 15" driver. Our driver sets at 90hz for 15", 100hz for 12" DS1200, and 120hz for GR SW12-4. For that particular TC2000 driver, to move that minimal impedance point from 60hz to 100hz requires a reduction of the voice coil inductance by a factor of 2.7x (because corner frequency change is square root of inductance change. 1.67x change in frequency, and 1.67*1.67=2.7x change in inductance value) . It is not an easy task. That would easily explain why it does not sound as transparent as....
I know this is a sensitive subject (about inductance and bah bah bah). Let me just say some of us can hear it and some of us cannot hear in the hope that this will quell further debate. It is very much like the engineer I met at TC sounds 4 years ago that I explained I can hear the difference shorting ring makes. He said he cannot hear any difference a shorting ring makes. At that time only a few companies made drivers with shorting ring. Today, that becomes a must-have feature.
I have to protest that
There are two important refinement we have made to our drivers over TC drivers. First, our driver has lower moving mass/lower voice coil inductance over than stock TC drivers. Both the voice coils and aluminum shorting rings were supplied by us. We just borrow TC's motor design. Our ealiest servo drivers are made by NCA. During the sampling process, Thilo forgot to put in shorting ring in the first sample. I put it in my servo sub, it sounded very bad. He then made the second sample and he glued the aluminum ring to the wrong side. He glued it to the back plate. I thought he would have known it should be glued to the top plate to be effective (do I have to explain that to him?) I didn't break any of those samples to find out all these. It was all based on sound first followed by a simple measurement of inductance.
The second refinement is servo. I was selling both servo and nonservo for a good 3-4 years. I decide to drop the nonservo line completely. There is no point of selling nonservo kits when servo kits are only $$$ more expensive. I can only sell single digit units of nonservo kits compared to hundreds of servo kits. The improvement from the servo is very obvious. The bass is not only tighter, it is also more articulate. I have one customer tried both of them and with a side-by-side comparison between servo and non-servo. While the nonservo sounded nice with the low moving mass/low inductance design features, the bass from the servo is "tight and sweet".
I don't have a TC2000, but a friend of mine send me his measurement. From that impedance plot, the impedance minimal point sits at 60hz for a 15" driver. Our driver sets at 90hz for 15", 100hz for 12" DS1200, and 120hz for GR SW12-4. For that particular TC2000 driver, to move that minimal impedance point from 60hz to 100hz requires a reduction of the voice coil inductance by a factor of 2.7x (because corner frequency change is square root of inductance change. 1.67x change in frequency, and 1.67*1.67=2.7x change in inductance value) . It is not an easy task. That would easily explain why it does not sound as transparent as....
I know this is a sensitive subject (about inductance and bah bah bah). Let me just say some of us can hear it and some of us cannot hear in the hope that this will quell further debate. It is very much like the engineer I met at TC sounds 4 years ago that I explained I can hear the difference shorting ring makes. He said he cannot hear any difference a shorting ring makes. At that time only a few companies made drivers with shorting ring. Today, that becomes a must-have feature.
Brian, great tradeoff IMO, especially when multiple units in play. Haven't heard an F15 but have built 2 from the older DS 15 kits both sealed for a client/friend. And if the F15 has the SQ of these kits, hats off to you. I was really suprised with the smoothness between 30 and 50hz...tough are for music and the DS handles it better than most.
You should know i'm a PeQ guy...LT not so much. I wind up notching with the PeQ to smooth the LT..?...depends on the room i guess.
I hope the comment about crushing output from the JL didn't bother you. At better than 3/4 the performance for the 1/3 the price it shouldn't. I could build 4 DS15 kits with that kind of money and then let's see who get's crushed! LOL
Brian, great tradeoff IMO, especially when multiple units in play. Haven't heard an F15 but have built 2 from the older DS 15 kits both sealed for a client/friend. And if the F15 has the SQ of these kits, hats off to you. I was really suprised with the smoothness between 30 and 50hz...tough are for music and the DS handles it better than most.
You should know i'm a PeQ guy...LT not so much. I wind up notching with the PeQ to smooth the LT..?...depends on the room i guess.
I hope the comment about crushing output from the JL didn't bother you. At better than 3/4 the performance for the 1/3 the price it shouldn't. I could build 4 DS15 kits with that kind of money and then let's see who get's crushed! LOL
Thanks for the information. Somehow I felt you are quite familiar with our products and that is why I asked the question.
In terms of output from JL, although I haven't heard JL personally (I have seen F112 at Absolute Sound office, Austin, TX), I am pretty sure it is a very potent one. I can bet the dollar amount of R&D money into that driver is good (EDIT: the selection of spider design/contour, surround material, and the motor structure). On the other hand, I am also proud of our products that can achieve similar sound quality with just slightly modified off-the-shelf components (EDIT: the trick is the servo feedback) and thank our customers in that their feedback and comment has boost our confidence in our finished subwoofers.
BTW, F15's sound quality is very close to DS15 if not better. We further reduce the moving mass of DS1500 driver. The strength of these subs (including DS15/DS12) is best demonstrated as how easy it is to integrate with other front speakers. They should sound like simply a pair of full range front speakers, not two front speakers plus a subwoofer
![]()
Thanks for the information. Somehow I felt you are quite familiar with our products and that is why I asked the question.
In terms of output from JL, although I haven't heard JL personally (I have seen F112 at Absolute Sound office, Austin, TX), I am pretty sure it is a very potent one. I can bet the dollar amount of R&D money into that driver is good (EDIT: the selection of spider design/contour, surround material, and the motor structure). On the other hand, I am also proud of our products that can achieve similar sound quality with just slightly modified off-the-shelf components (EDIT: the trick is the servo feedback) and thank our customers in that their feedback and comment has boost our confidence in our finished subwoofers.
BTW, F15's sound quality is very close to DS15 if not better. We further reduce the moving mass of DS1500 driver. The strength of these subs (including DS15/DS12) is best demonstrated as how easy it is to integrate with other front speakers. They should sound like simply a pair of full range front speakers, not two front speakers plus a subwoofer
Thanks for clearing that up Brian.... No offense meant - I have read that on many occasions, and never seen a rebuttal of said information, so I took it as truth... I have no doubt of your subs validity, and they get rave reviews, again I have not heard them. I have a number of TC2K's and they are great drivers, very linear in 3rd party measurements, but they certainly are not the end all be all drivers, much less - not very capable business practices either, or they would still be here today.
![]()
The TC2K as well as the TC3K are very well known to have a high inductance area around 50-60hz as you state, I have seen enough measurements to agree with you. They can handle a ton of power, give lots of output while staying very linear throughout the range, but that surely doesn't make them perfect.
![]()
Your statement
This is exactly one of the reasons why I love my F112, excellent upper bass, so blending with the mains is completely seamless. That statement alone would warrant me to try the Rythmiks out.... at a far more attractive price then the F112.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik /forum/post/15499449
I have to protest thatOur driver is not a modified TC1000.![]()
There are two important refinement we have made to our drivers over TC drivers. First, our driver has lower moving mass/lower voice coil inductance over than stock TC drivers. Both the voice coils and aluminum shorting rings were supplied by us. We just borrow TC's motor design. Our ealiest servo drivers are made by NCA. During the sampling process, Thilo forgot to put in shorting ring in the first sample. I put it in my servo sub, it sounded very bad. He then made the second sample and he glued the aluminum ring to the wrong side. He glued it to the back plate. I thought he would have known it should be glued to the top plate to be effective (do I have to explain that to him?) I didn't break any of those samples to find out all these. It was all based on sound first followed by a simple measurement of inductance.
The second refinement is servo. I was selling both servo and nonservo for a good 3-4 years. I decide to drop the nonservo line completely. There is no point of selling nonservo kits when servo kits are only $$$ more expensive. I can only sell single digit units of nonservo kits compared to hundreds of servo kits. The improvement from the servo is very obvious. The bass is not only tighter, it is also more articulate. I have one customer tried both of them and with a side-by-side comparison between servo and non-servo. While the nonservo sounded nice with the low moving mass/low inductance design features, the bass from the servo is "tight and sweet".
I don't have a TC2000, but a friend of mine send me his measurement. From that impedance plot, the impedance minimal point sits at 60hz for a 15" driver. Our driver sets at 90hz for 15", 100hz for 12" DS1200, and 120hz for GR SW12-4. For that particular TC2000 driver, to move that minimal impedance point from 60hz to 100hz requires a reduction of the voice coil inductance by a factor of 2.7x (because corner frequency change is square root of inductance change. 1.67x change in frequency, and 1.67*1.67=2.7x change in inductance value) . It is not an easy task. That would easily explain why it does not sound as transparent as....
I know this is a sensitive subject (about inductance and bah bah bah). Let me just say some of us can hear it and some of us cannot hear in the hope that this will quell further debate. It is very much like the engineer I met at TC sounds 4 years ago that I explained I can hear the difference shorting ring makes. He said he cannot hear any difference a shorting ring makes. At that time only a few companies made drivers with shorting ring. Today, that becomes a must-have feature.
Thanks for clearing that up Brian.... No offense meant - I have read that on many occasions, and never seen a rebuttal of said information, so I took it as truth... I have no doubt of your subs validity, and they get rave reviews, again I have not heard them. I have a number of TC2K's and they are great drivers, very linear in 3rd party measurements, but they certainly are not the end all be all drivers, much less - not very capable business practices either, or they would still be here today.
The TC2K as well as the TC3K are very well known to have a high inductance area around 50-60hz as you state, I have seen enough measurements to agree with you. They can handle a ton of power, give lots of output while staying very linear throughout the range, but that surely doesn't make them perfect.
Your statement
Quote:
The strength of these subs (including DS15/DS12) is best demonstrated as how easy it is to integrate with other front speakers. They should sound like simply a pair of full range front speakers, not two front speakers plus a subwoofer![]()
This is exactly one of the reasons why I love my F112, excellent upper bass, so blending with the mains is completely seamless. That statement alone would warrant me to try the Rythmiks out.... at a far more attractive price then the F112.
In terms of output, it is similar to TC1000 and that was probably the reason why I didn't say anything before. However, I will be very disappointed if there is no improvement from what I did with our drivers over stock TC1000
![]()
I used the word "refinement" because quite a few people comparing subwoofers to cars and conclude "there is no replacement for displacement". Unfortunately displacement does not tell us how smooth the engine is, nor how responsive the engine is. They are all in the refinement category. Today if we use our cars for straight line racing, top speed performance is the performance metric. However, none of our daily drive permits us the drive at that top speed all the time. We have traffic light to force us stop and go and before we go to 100mph, we need to go through 5 mph, then 10mph, .... Also there are twists and turns that require cars to have good handling and traction. In short, cars have steady state and dynamic performance metrics. Engine size does not tell us everything. Similarly, a constant 100db SPL music is not music all all. It needs dynamic change. Even a constant 120db special effects do not provide their impact unless they come and go. Some may disagree, but I do think there are some similarity between cars and subwoofer, ie, there are design compromise and trade-offs. Numbers do not tell the whole story. Otherwise, we can shop cars by their numbers.
In terms of output, it is similar to TC1000 and that was probably the reason why I didn't say anything before. However, I will be very disappointed if there is no improvement from what I did with our drivers over stock TC1000
I used the word "refinement" because quite a few people comparing subwoofers to cars and conclude "there is no replacement for displacement". Unfortunately displacement does not tell us how smooth the engine is, nor how responsive the engine is. They are all in the refinement category. Today if we use our cars for straight line racing, top speed performance is the performance metric. However, none of our daily drive permits us the drive at that top speed all the time. We have traffic light to force us stop and go and before we go to 100mph, we need to go through 5 mph, then 10mph, .... Also there are twists and turns that require cars to have good handling and traction. In short, cars have steady state and dynamic performance metrics. Engine size does not tell us everything. Similarly, a constant 100db SPL music is not music all all. It needs dynamic change. Even a constant 120db special effects do not provide their impact unless they come and go. Some may disagree, but I do think there are some similarity between cars and subwoofer, ie, there are design compromise and trade-offs. Numbers do not tell the whole story. Otherwise, we can shop cars by their numbers.
+1 to that...
I think after you get into this hobby and start to become more passionate about SQ later down the line most would start moving towards better performing drivers that offer that articulation, control, linear response in conjunction with that output or SPLs.
SPL's aren't everything.... at least to me they sure aren 't.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik /forum/post/15524190
In terms of output, it is similar to TC1000 and that was probably the reason why I didn't say anything before. However, I will be very disappointed if there is no improvement from what I did with our drivers over stock TC1000![]()
+1 to that...
I think after you get into this hobby and start to become more passionate about SQ later down the line most would start moving towards better performing drivers that offer that articulation, control, linear response in conjunction with that output or SPLs.
SPL's aren't everything.... at least to me they sure aren 't.....
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