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Whedon's cut is getting trashed in comparison to Snyder's Cut...
Do you think Whedon had the option of doing a 4 hour version? Whedon had to stay within the constraints of what the studio allowed him to do and took over in the middle of someone else's vision. So I wouldn't blame him for the movie but certainly for any abuse of the actors, yes.
 

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Whedon's cut is getting trashed in comparison to Snyder's Cut...
I doubt even Joss Whedon likes the theatrical cut. It was never his movie in the first place. He was roped in late in production to save a sinking ship. He did what he could within the constraints that he had to work with. The studio demanded certain things, and he had to deliver them. That's all there was to it. Had he developed the project from the beginning, it would have been a very different movie.

I'm not saying that would have necessarily been a good movie either. Age of Ultron still gets my vote for the worst of all the Marvel films. Nevertheless, there is no "Joss Whedon Cut" of Justice League. There's a Studio Cut that Joss Whedon was paid to assemble out of scraps, and then there's the Zack Snyder Cut. Those are the only two versions.

Mind you, none of this excuses Whedon's alleged terrible behavior on set.
 
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‘The Nevers’ Star Laura Donnelly Was ‘Gutted’ by Joss Whedon’s Exit: ‘I Had a Wonderful Experience Working With Him’

But HBO sci-fi drama’s lead tells TheWrap she is “really excited” by new showrunner Philippa Goslett’s ideas
Jennifer Maas

“The Nevers” star Laura Donnelly was cast as the lead in Joss Whedon’s supernatural drama in April 2019, which came nearly a year after it was ordered straight to series at HBO. Now, almost two years later, the “Outlander” alum is just weeks away from seeing the world Whedon created debut on screen.

And while Donnelly, her co-star Ann Skelly and the other “Nevers” cast members are still inhabitants of Whedon’s sci-fi Victorian England world, with the pandemic-delayed second half of Season 1 in the works, the architect himself decided to move out last fall.

“I found out the same way that everybody else did — well, HBO let us know. And I was gutted, because I had a wonderful experience working with him,” Donnelly told TheWrap on Wednesday of Whedon’s decision to exit “The Nevers” on Nov. 25. “And it was a real joy to go to work every day. And so the idea of that coming to an end, I was really gutted about that. But, at the same time, he left for personal reasons and I can’t argue with that. You know, I want the best for him and he had to go for his own reasons, so I accepted it.”

...

 

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Do you think Whedon had the option of doing a 4 hour version? Whedon had to stay within the constraints of what the studio allowed him to do and took over in the middle of someone else's vision. So I wouldn't blame him for the movie but certainly for any abuse of the actors, yes.
I doubt even Joss Whedon likes the theatrical cut. It was never his movie in the first place. He was roped in late in production to save a sinking ship. He did what he could within the constraints that he had to work with. The studio demanded certain things, and he had to deliver them. That's all there was to it. Had he developed the project from the beginning, it would have been a very different movie.
I agree about the circumstances of him being brought into Justice League but the perception is out there that Whedon's cut of the movie is not that great (I actually thought it was pretty good)...this was out there before the Snyder Cut was even announced...perception is reality...I doubt most people know the details about Whedon coming in late to 'fix' the movie...the first 2 Avengers movies were directed by Whedon and that also seems to get lost amongst mainstream folks...when people think about the MCU they automatically give credit to Kevin Feige or the Russo Bros.

fair or not Whedon's biggest success was with Buffy, Angel and Firefly...he does deserve credit for creating shows with strong female characters way before it became mainstream but his best days may be behind him...these allegations may be the final nail
 

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What mystifies me is why Whedon took the JL job in the first place. They must have offered him a pile of money, which he must have really needed. He had to have known there would have been no upside for him personally. Not his story, not his style.
 

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What mystifies me is why Whedon took the JL job in the first place. They must have offered him a pile of money, which he must have really needed. He had to have known there would have been no upside for him personally. Not his story, not his style.
Whedon was kind of a script doctor before he became a known director so he was used to coming in and fixing things. I don't know the circumstances of JL but I would have to say that the theatrical third act was horrible and I don't know whose fault that is.
 

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I doubt most people know the details about Whedon coming in late to 'fix' the movie...
Given that Whedon is not credited as director on any version of Justice League (Zack Snyder has sole credit on both cuts, even the one he didn't make), I doubt that most average, non-obsessive movie watchers realized he had anything to do with it at all.
 

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What mystifies me is why Whedon took the JL job in the first place. They must have offered him a pile of money, which he must have really needed. He had to have known there would have been no upside for him personally. Not his story, not his style.
Whedon was kind of a script doctor before he became a known director so he was used to coming in and fixing things.
I would assume that Whedon was probably all set for money after his two Avengers movies, but then again, he did go through a messy divorce and may have felt financially stung from that.

After his falling-out with Marvel, I expect that Warner Bros. probably told Whedon that if Justice League worked out, they'd want him to be the new architect for the entire DCEU going forward. That may have been really appealing to him. But of course the movie didn't work out, so those plans were scrapped.
 

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HBO’s ‘The Nevers’ Brings Joss Whedon’s Greatest Hits to Victorian London: TV Review

The new drama, about Victorian women granted extraordinary powers out of thin air, is engaging even as it leans heavily on Whedon's go-to tropes.

 

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‘The Nevers’ Star Laura Donnelly Explains What a ‘Never’ Is – and Why It’s Never Said in the Show

Co-executive producer Daniel Kaminsky elaborates
Jennifer Maas

Joss Whedon’s fantasy series “The Nevers” premieres Sunday on HBO. The show, which Whedon exited for personal reasons after the first six episodes of Season 1 had wrapped production, stars Laura Donnelly and Ann Skelly as the leaders of a group of people who have spontaneously developed supernatural abilities in Victorian England. Within the show’s universe, these outliers are referred to as “The Touched.”

So then why is the show called “The Nevers” — a term which you actually never hear used in the show’s first episode?

“Joss had said way back at the beginning, before we went into production, that it speaks to the concept of these people who should have never existed,” Donnelly, who plays Amalia True, a quick-fisted widow with the ability to see glimpses of the future, told TheWrap. “They are seen as an abomination in society and, therefore, they should have never been. I think it speaks as well to that idea that if you feel like an outcast in society, if you feel like you don’t belong or you are in some way wrong, then you can turn that in on yourself. It’s not just other people’s view of you. You can feel, perhaps, like you never should have been, that you are in some way deeply flawed, deeply wrong. And so I think it speaks to the social perception of ‘The Touched’ as a whole.”

“The Nevers” co-executive producer Daniel Kaminsky concurred and elaborated.

“The Nevers represents a group of people who were never supposed to have power, never supposed to work together, never meant to change the world — but in our show, they do. And this series explores what happens when this unlikely crew chooses to wield their collective power and demand dramatic change from an established order seemingly incapable of transformation,” he said in an email to TheWrap.

The first episode of “The Nevers” is set in London in 1896, three years after an inexplicable event suddenly equips Amalia True, Penance Adair (Skelly) and others with these supernatural abilities, making them outcasts who must work to protect each other.

“The Touched are a group of people, mainly women, but not all women, in this society and they have spontaneously developed these abnormal abilities. Not necessarily superpowers, not everything is even useful, but everybody has a different strange ability. And those abilities are referred to as a ‘turn,'” Donnelly said. “So Amalia’s turn is that she can see just ever so slightly into the future. But she only really has glimpses of the future, not something that she can necessarily understand or even really use. She kind of spends a lot of the first few episodes really coming to grips with that and how she can use it to her advantage. The group as a whole are known to society as ‘The Touched,’ and they are not necessarily favorably looked upon by those in power and those interested in keeping the established order.”

“The Nevers” Season 1 is spilt into two parts, with the first six episodes airing weekly beginning this Sunday, while new showrunner Philippa Goslett is at work in the writers’ room breaking the second half of the season, which is expected to begin filming later this year. Though this was not the initial plan when the show received its 10-episode straight-to-series order at HBO in 2018, Kaminsky tells TheWrap it works out that the sixth episode happened to be Whedon’s stopping point.

“Episode 6 was always meant to be a bit of an outlier episode,” he wrote. “When the covid pandemic made production somewhat untenable, the decision was made to break the season into two parts. Episode 6 felt like a natural place to pause — some aspects were reconceived to setup part B, but by and large, the episode remains as originally intended.”

By that episode, Donnelly says viewers will know much more about Amalia and how she became the badass supernatural lady she is.

“So it’s certainly not apparent at the beginning where these particular skills have come from, but that does become explained by the end of the sixth episode,” she said. “The sixth episode is wonderful because it wraps up a lot of different threads. And there will be explanations. So even though we’re only finishing halfway through a season, people won’t be left dangling as such for however long it will be before the next episodes… The audience will get the answers that they’re craving. There will be a satisfying wrap-up by the end of this half-season.”

 

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The Nevers: Discover the New Series

The cast sets up the exciting world of The Nevers, their characters, and what audiences can expect from the genre-bending series. Experience The Nevers Sunday at 9 p.m. on HBO Max.

 

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I'm curious to see reviews on this series...the trailers don't blow me away and it doesn't have that typical Whedon feel to it (even though he's no longer involved with the show I'm assuming his basic framework for Season 1 is still intact)
 

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HBO’s ‘The Nevers’ Brings Joss Whedon’s Greatest Hits to Victorian London: TV Review
The new drama, about Victorian women granted extraordinary powers out of thin air, is engaging even as it leans heavily on Whedon's go-to tropes.

By Caroline Framke



'The Nevers' Review: HBO's New Supernatural Drama Feels Very Much Like a Joss Whedon Show (For Better and For Worse)
BY LIZ SHANNON MILLERPUBLISHED 1 DAY AGO
The new supernatural drama premieres Sunday, April 11 on HBO.



'The Nevers': TV Review



Joss Whedon’s Steampunk Fantasy Series, The Nevers, Is Pretty Nonsense
It’s a lot like X-Men, but with bustles, and also magic?

 

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the trailers looked average at best and it looks like that's pretty much what the series is...

from the Hollywood Reporter review: "the first four episodes sent to critics are the exact sort of rough, unfocused opening that fans of Buffy and Dollhouse know to expect. Those shows benefited from goodwill toward Whedon, allowing audiences to concentrate on quippy dialogue, clever themes or the occasional bit of visual flair instead of the clumsy storytelling or misguided subplots

A generous take on 'The Nevers' is that it's a fin de siècle X-Men, or maybe a Victorian Watchmen...a less generous take is that it's a more expensive version of Fox's The Gifted, one made without any clear understanding of hour-long cable narrative rhythm, structure or momentum...after four episodes, there's little indication of where this six-episode half-season is heading other than, "Somebody wants to wipe out all of the touched and...that's about it."...the second half of the season (yet to be shot and not involving Whedon) will be worth checking in on to take its post-Whedon creative temperature. But perhaps not for any other reason"
 

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The Nevers Review: Sparkling Leading Ladies Aside, Joss Whedon's HBO Drama Is Just Reheated Buffy Season 7

It is, indeed, steampunk Buffy with corsets — and for several reasons, that’s no longer an enticing concept...perhaps the show’s premium cable berth ultimately will allow the show to flower in a way different from that of Whedon’s other series, all of which aired on broadcast networks...sadly, though, the most noticeable indicator so far of The Nevers‘ more permissive network standards are the proliferation of boobs for boobs’ sake...

Grade: C-

 

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The Nevers sends Victorian superwomen into a messy alternate-history epic: Review

HBO's historical fantasy is the most Whedonesque Joss Whedon project in a decade, for better and for worse.

By Darren Franich

The last time Joss Whedon made a TV show, he was on the cover of Entertainment Weekly promoting Marvel's Agents of SHIELD. Now here's The Nevers — the last time Joss Whedon will probably ever make a TV show. Too dramatic? The Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator is only 56, and was self-funding Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog back when streaming originals were still called web series. Still, given the cascading misconduct allegations swirling around him – and the blade of bitter betrayal slicing through his fandom's heart — I'm not sure another network will give him a universe-building budget anytime soon. (Whedon has not responded to the claims.)

So HBO's historical fantasy arrives with unwanted weight, and a bit of fascination: Just what was the influential icon going for here, before his legend descended into ongoing controversy? Whedon departed midway through season 1, with Philippa Goslett replacing him as showrunner. He wrote and directed the pilot, though, which embodies his style more than anything in his Marvel decade. Amalia True (Laura Donnelly) and Penance Adair (Ann Skelly) are an odd couple of action friends in an 1899 London overrun with biological anomalies. A girl suddenly speaks every known language, a girl grows as tall as a house, a girl named Wendy turns quite bendy: Basically, someone spilled X-Men in your Bridgerton. Men can be "Touched," too, yet society overreacts against the affected women. Females are accused of Satanic encumbrance, hunted by law enforcement, tormented by reactionary bros, even lobotomized. So, yes: A feminist drama, made by a man many feminists despise.

The story centers on a safe-space orphanage full of Touched individuals, led by Penance's brain and Amalia's brawn. Donnelly exudes fancy-tough swagger, knocking two bad guys out a window (and riding one to the ground) before the opening credits roll. She's the Gallant to Skelly's chatter-nerd Goofus. Their chemistry works; not much else does. A minor subplot about a sex club becomes a major plot about a sex club, with James Norton as a sleazy aristocrat who "auditions" Touched prostitutes personally. I just threw up in my mouth, and The Nevers stumbles even more awkwardly as it juggles overt social themes with flat-out silly plot developments. There's a speech-y serial killer named Maladie (Amy Manson), and a speech-y archconservative baddie Lord Massen (Pip Torrens) who is very speechily introduced as "the last line of defense against the scourge of modernity."

Whedon's theatrical banter was wonderfully unusual in his WB days. It was the cadence of the drama club — picture kids in a runty back-of-the-gym theater doing Shakespeare — and it gave his genre projects a unique tone of sincere absurdity. On The Nevers, too much of the florid conversation sounds like well-educated people showing off all the words they know. Something similar happened to Aaron Sorkin with The Newsroom; in hindsight, both writers benefited from the broadcast-TV requirement to Get On With It Already. Here's Maladie after she survives a brutal beating: "There's a German philosopher, very well respected, who said a saying about all the things that don't kill you." There's a TV critic who said this dialogue stinks.

There are two good insane twists and two bad insane twists. The orgies look silly. The romances are adolescent. By episode 4, multiple enemies have become friends (and vice versa). Ben Chaplin haunts the margins of the show as Frank Mundi, a gruff detective with a heart of gold. Amalia's power grants her premonitions of the future, which means she stands around waiting for the universe to suggest plot points to her. In episode 4, she tells her friends a certain villain can be found in "The Narrows," and I suddenly realized what TV show The Nevers reminds me of: Gotham, Fox's Bat-prequel, which turned its own city-of-super-weirdoes mythology into a deranged soap opera. As a crime lord who calls himself the Beggar King, Nick Frost is more or less playing a Gotham mobster, and Denis O'Hare's mad scientist is a Hugo Strange by any other name.

For me, the comparison is beneficial. Gotham pushed its loopy sensibility to pulpy extremes, and The Nevers gets better when it embraces its wild side. There's a very fun action scene with an opponent who walks on water, and the vague promise of a fascinating mythology just out of reach. Season 1 has been split into two parts due to a production shutdown — six episodes now, six episodes later — which seems to speed up the plot momentum after a sleepy beginning. Yet Whedon's trademark wit feels corseted by the Victorian setting and the demands of a sprawling premium-cable ensemble epic. Will The Nevers improve on his shaky foundation? Right now, it's all steam and no punk. C+

 

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I went in not knowing anything about this show. Gotta say I enjoyed the pilot episode. Always nice to see a little steampunk. The actor playing Lord Massen was driving me nuts. His voice and mannerisms. It was on the tip of my tongue. Then I see the name Pip Torrens in the end credits and my cerebral lightbulb goes off. It’s Herr Star from Preacher! I will say this show should be in 4K HDR. HBO Max really needs to step up their UHD game.
 
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