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Discussion Starter #1
Ok,

So here is the scenario:

I have three Noesis 215 RT's for L/C/R.

I have a Marantz 8802a.

LFE Output 1 is mixed with the Left channel to the Left 215rt via a Whirlwind IMCOML (basically a 2 input, one output combiner with XLR connections).

LFE Output 2 is mixed with the Center channel to the Center channel via a second Whirlwind IMCOML.

LFE Output 2 is mixed with the Right channel (there is an XLR Y-cable off of the LFE Output 2 from the 8802a going to two different Whirlwind combiners) and sent to the right channel.

Each 215RT has it's own Crown XLS 2000 for amplification.

The question:

I ran through Audyssey last night. It set the trims on the LFE's to -12 (pegged down). I've been reading several forum members stating they like to run Audyssey with 215RT's set to "Bypass L and R".

I CAN do that of course, however what about the center 215RT? I'm concerned I'm "losing" 2 15" woofers from my setup by going that route.

Thoughts? How do I best capitalize on the woofers I have, yet let the processor do it's thing? Also noticed the lowest xover frequency in the 8802a is 40hz. I see reference to Jeff P stating that 215RTs really should have a 14hz 24db high pass filter.

Possible solution:

Maybe set the 215rt's to full range and raise the LFE levels manually in the processor (recall they are -12 right now after running Audyssey)???
 

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Why on earth would you have such a convoluted connection scheme to get the LFE channel into your mains?? :confused:

Just connect the 215s to the FL/FR terminals and set them to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE and the LFE channel will be re-directed to the mains. Easy-peazy.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Why on earth would you have such a convoluted connection scheme to get the LFE channel into your mains?? :confused:

Just connect the 215s to the FL/FR terminals and set them to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE and the LFE channel will be re-directed to the mains. Easy-peazy.


Goal was to be able to adjust the LFE channel levels. If I set the L/C/R (recall I have three 215rt's that I am trying to utilize the woofers in) to Large would I not lose the adjustment capabilities for the LFE levels?
 

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Goal was to be able to adjust the LFE channel levels. If I set the L/C/R (recall I have three 215rt's that I am trying to utilize the woofers in) to Large would I not lose the adjustment capabilities for the LFE levels?
Ahh, yes, if that is the goal, then I guess you would have to do some convoluted wiring (as you have obviously done).

Have you tried with the 215s set to Large? Maybe the LFE channel is "just right". ;)

Regardless, you can not have Audyssey come back with a sub trim of -12dB. As you know, that is the lower limit and you have no idea if Audyssey wanted to set it to -12dB or -13dB or -25dB. You need to get that sorted out before moving forward with your proposed setup. The traditional way to fix this would be to just turn down the gain on the subwoofer amp...since you don't have that option, I'm not sure how you would fix the issue...unless the IMCOMLs have adjustable gain settings(?).
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Ahh, yes, if that is the goal, then I guess you would have to do some convoluted wiring (as you have obviously done).

Have you tried with the 215s set to Large? Maybe the LFE channel is "just right". ;)

Regardless, you can not have Audyssey come back with a sub trim of -12dB. As you know, that is the lower limit and you have no idea if Audyssey wanted to set it to -12dB or -13dB or -25dB. You need to get that sorted out before moving forward with your proposed setup. The traditional way to fix this would be to just turn down the gain on the subwoofer amp...since you don't have that option, I'm not sure how you would fix the issue...unless the IMCOMLs have adjustable gain settings(?).
I have gains on each of the Crown XLS 2000 amps powering each 215rt. In fact, during Audyssey calibration it complained that Sub 2 was "too low". I adjusted the gains on the amps to get Audyssey to see ~75db then began the rest of the calibration.

From what I'm reading it's NOT uncommon for the 215rt's to cause Audyssey to set -12 on the LFE. Nature of the beast I suppose with this much horsepower. Alternatively I COULD turn the gains down before calibration, however like I said Audyssey was complaining about low lfe levels untill I adjusted the amp gains.
 

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The problem is that the 215s are apparently more sensitive to the sub frequencies than the upper frequencies, and you have no way of adjusting them separately before calibration.

I would set the gains on the amps as low as you need to to get the sub trim to come back in an acceptable range (anything above -12dB, but below 0dB). Just disregard the "too low" message from Audyssey. Afterwards, you will have to adjust the speaker trim and sub trim settings with an SPL meter to "balance" the system.

This would all be a whole lot easier if you just had a subwoofer in the system. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The problem is that the 215s are apparently more sensitive to the sub frequencies than the upper frequencies, and you have no way of adjusting them separately before calibration.

I would set the gains on the amps as low as you need to to get the sub trim to come back in an acceptable range (anything above -12dB, but below 0dB). Just disregard the "too low" message from Audyssey. Afterwards, you will have to adjust the speaker trim and sub trim settings with an SPL meter to "balance" the system.

This would all be a whole lot easier if you just had a subwoofer in the system. ;)
I do. 6 of them as a matter of fact :)

Audyssey doesn't really accommodate full range speakers with 15" woofers.
 

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6 15" cones doesn't equal 6 sub woofers. They equal 3 full range speakers. If you set the L/C/R speakers to large and set the subwoofer to LFE only, you can then manually adjust only the LFE portion by adjusting the sub woofer trim.

If Audyssey is suggesting a -12 db for the subs you might as well do as suggested above and set them to full with the subwoofer set to none and see how that sounds. That is what you really have and you greatly simplify your wiring as well.

I still think the best would be to set all three to large and go buy a good pair of sub's for the LFE channel and let Audyssey do it correctly.
 

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I do. 6 of them as a matter of fact :)

Audyssey doesn't really accommodate full range speakers with 15" woofers.

:confused:

So, what...you are splitting the sub out to your subs and the 215s? What exactly do you hope to accomplish from this exercise?

It is usually not recommended to run the mains full range when there are capable subs in the system. It can result in doing more harm then good. However, I realize you have very capable mains and may realize some benefit...do you have a measuring rig??

Regardless, since you already seem to be set in the subwoofer department, why not just run the mains large with LFE+Main? To me, it makes no sense to try and intentionally route the LFE signal to the mains when you have subwoofers to handle that part of the signal, you could even end up damaging the 215s.


EDIT: Nevermind....I just realized you were reffering to the 6 woofers you have in the 215s. Those are not subwoofers.
 

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Post this in the JTR thread. I have the 2 215RT's and a RM center. I basically set up as explained to you in post 2. I have a Denon and when set to large and no subwoofers the LFE is automatically sent to the mains?
 

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Why on earth would you have such a convoluted connection scheme to get the LFE channel into your mains?? :confused:

Just connect the 215s to the FL/FR terminals and set them to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE and the LFE channel will be re-directed to the mains. Easy-peazy.
What I think he is doing is what is suggested by Jeff (JTR) is that by doing this configuration you can run these speakers "Full Range" and use the sub trims to control the bass vs a separate dsp to control the bass. Jeff gave a schematic a long time about how to do it. However I don't think anybody has ever tried it. I think we have our first candidate. I think I know what he is talking about, but no idea how to give him advise.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What I think he is doing is what is suggested by Jeff (JTR) is that by doing this configuration you can run these speakers "Full Range" and use the sub trims to control the bass vs a separate dsp to control the bass. Jeff gave a schematic a long time about how to do it. However I don't think anybody has ever tried it. I think we have our first candidate. I think I know what he is talking about, but no idea how to give him advise.
Reef is correct. I was trying to mix LFE and L/C/R signals into 3 mixes (one per speaker of course) so that I could control LFE independently.

It worked "OK".

Wiring wasn't that "convoluted" just required a few extra XLR cables.

With all that being said, I just switched the wiring to not mix LFE into the LCR speakers, re-ran Audyssey 8 pt cal, told it no subs, and of course it decided to set the three speakers to large/full range. I also set the Audyssey options to "Bypass L and R" per RMK!'s suggestion. Haven't done an A-B comparison with that setting yet.

So far:

It's loud....horns tend to be.

Bass? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I mean I feel it in my chest when I crank it, I feel the room rattle a bit, seat shakes, BUT it's not like "hard to breathe, grab my chest" type bass. Very tight and accurate I would say.

Can't believe I'm thinking about adding a dedicated sub or two to this room (JUST put the chairs in last night).

Is it me or is this about what 215RT's sound like sans subwoofers?
 

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What I think he is doing is what is suggested by Jeff (JTR) is that by doing this configuration you can run these speakers "Full Range" and use the sub trims to control the bass vs a separate dsp to control the bass. Jeff gave a schematic a long time about how to do it. However I don't think anybody has ever tried it. I think we have our first candidate. I think I know what he is talking about, but no idea how to give him advise.
Oh, I understand what he is trying to accomplish...it just seems a very convoluted way to maybe improve the response a questionable amount. I'd rather just use a MiniDSP and EQ the speakers to my taste post-Audyssey.

Looks like for the price of two of those Whirlwind IMCOMLs he could have easily gotten a MiniDSP. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Oh, I understand what he is trying to accomplish...it just seems a very convoluted way to maybe improve the response a questionable amount. I'd rather just use a MiniDSP and EQ the speakers to my taste post-Audyssey.

Looks like for the price of two of those Whirlwind IMCOMLs he could have easily gotten a MiniDSP. ;)
That is true except I got them for a steal on Ebay.

I was trying to simplify the processing in the rack (i.e. keep all processing inside the Marantz and only use combining devices for signal routing).

It worked/it works. It's just not much different than plan B (no subs, large LCR settings). Experiment tried...and "Eh".

Now I get to plan for 2 more amps and actual subs. Thinking I might DIY the subwoofers. Easy enough and I have an AT screen that I can hide anything behind that's not furniture grade :).
 

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Reef is correct. I was trying to mix LFE and L/C/R signals into 3 mixes (one per speaker of course) so that I could control LFE independently.

It worked "OK".

Wiring wasn't that "convoluted" just required a few extra XLR cables.

With all that being said, I just switched the wiring to not mix LFE into the LCR speakers, re-ran Audyssey 8 pt cal, told it no subs, and of course it decided to set the three speakers to large/full range. I also set the Audyssey options to "Bypass L and R" per RMK!'s suggestion. Haven't done an A-B comparison with that setting yet.

So far:

It's loud....horns tend to be.

Bass? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I mean I feel it in my chest when I crank it, I feel the room rattle a bit, seat shakes, BUT it's not like "hard to breathe, grab my chest" type bass. Very tight and accurate I would say.

Can't believe I'm thinking about adding a dedicated sub or two to this room (JUST put the chairs in last night).

Is it me or is this about what 215RT's sound like sans subwoofers?
I know I have a small room and when I was running full range no subs, I had incredible bass. I actually started crossing my 215RT with subs for movies, but I am seriously thinking about going back to full range no subs as I felt the 215RT's put out ridiculous bass. Everybody has a different opinion with these speakers. Some say the bass alone is enough and some still need 10 18's to with it. Audyssey just neuters the 215s of bass. I actually shut it off all together for along time and let em run loose. I am curious if your set up is restricting the bass, because 3 215RT's should be giving you room destruction bass. I would set them up to how Alan P told you to in post 2, shut off Audyssey and see if you get anything different. You can also contact @desertdome he is a good dude and very good at setting these up, he can give you some pointers. I had said earlier today these speakers are not plug and play and take some time to get dialed in because there are a few different ways to run them. The results are incredible though. Other than my previous 212HT's, these are the best speakers for my taste! Love em!
 

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Oh, I understand what he is trying to accomplish...it just seems a very convoluted way to maybe improve the response a questionable amount. I'd rather just use a MiniDSP and EQ the speakers to my taste post-Audyssey.

Looks like for the price of two of those Whirlwind IMCOMLs he could have easily gotten a MiniDSP. ;)
Oh I agree. I was going to try that at one point, but went with the inukedsp first and then picked up a used nanoAVR. I actually liked the inukedsp, my only issue was the bass was a bit much to tame during movies.
 

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Maybe I am wrong for thinking this, but I am wondering if you AT screen set up is restricting the 215's? The bottom of you screen is blocked and most likely holding back the bass? Have you tried putting them in front of the screen? I mean most AT setups still have passive material to let the sound come through. The 215's are ported at the bottom as you know. I am thinking that is some of your problem. The 215s do need a bit of breathing room.

Also I am not knocking your set up, it is beautiful, but just wondering if the 215's are the right speaker for you AT set up.
 

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IIRC, the 15's are crossed over at 350Hz at the top end, and would have to handle everything below that unless crossed over with a sub. I think its asking a lot to ask any driver to handle everything from 350 Hz down to 10Hz on some of the LFE tracks. I bet with some capable subs crossed over at 50 or 60 Hz the 215s--especially the mid bass--would be sick. If it were me, personally, I would get some bad ass subs to go with these bad ass speakers and let them loose.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Maybe I am wrong for thinking this, but I am wondering if you AT screen set up is restricting the 215's? The bottom of you screen is blocked and most likely holding back the bass? Have you tried putting them in front of the screen? I mean most AT setups still have passive material to let the sound come through. The 215's are ported at the bottom as you know. I am thinking that is some of your problem. The 215s do need a bit of breathing room.

Also I am not knocking your set up, it is beautiful, but just wondering if the 215's are the right speaker for you AT set up.
My room has many illusions. One being that it's solid material below that screen. Look closer at the picture. That's GOM FR701 (Cinnabar as it happened to blend in with the stain color quite well) in between the "slats" running all under the screen. No issue with ports breathing into the room.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
IIRC, the 15's are crossed over at 350Hz at the top end, and would have to handle everything below that unless crossed over with a sub. I think its asking a lot to ask any driver to handle everything from 350 Hz down to 10Hz on some of the LFE tracks. I bet with some capable subs crossed over at 50 or 60 Hz the 215s--especially the mid bass--would be sick. If it were me, personally, I would get some bad ass subs to go with these bad ass speakers and let them loose.
You and me think alike. I just got off the phone with my wife telling her I think I'm going to add a pair of 18"s or 24"s behind the screen. She "put her foot down" so to speak.

Don't get me wrong, I just demo'd it to the kids with some random earthquake scene (Fifth Wave I think is the disc) and they were all holding there ears.

I think my problem is I used to build high end car audio systems. Used to 140+ spl bass mobiles. This is about 120 I would venture to guess.

Like I said, I've got it running with no subs defined and straight up full range/large to each 215. It's strong (as in strong to the point I swore I saw the screen wall moving with the earthquake scene), just not what I would call "crazy". I think I have an illness.
 
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