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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
still waiting on the cables...they're supposed to arrive tomorrow, so i'll have to blow off a day of work.

i'm just a little worried 'cause either way it's gonna suck

since i have to leave for 10 days to work in Syracuse, if i set it up and the picture is dissapointing after all this, it's gonna bother me the the whole time i'm away and trying to concentrate on the jobs at hand, although i suppose there's always hope with the new sage based players hitting the shelves soon

but

if i hook it up and the picture makes me as happy as everyone else who has this combo, the next 10 days are just gonna drag as i count each minute waiting to get back so i can kick back and enjoy some movies.

either way it's gonna be a looooong 10 days.


i had to pick up a display model that had no box, no instructions, and no a/v cables and all for the ridiculous open-box price of $434 (+ 8% sales tax).

if this player works out, should i assume i'll be just as happy with a 6200? bought new online i can get it for roughly the same price after shipping.

i'll be keeping an eye out for the chroma bug, just in case.


edited to include:

after about a week of not using it

i was playing around a little tonight with a batch of titles i just picked up (it was so nice of BB to break the street dates...if only they'd do it more often) and honestly,

sometimes its hard to believe any improvements will be anything more than very minor.

Batman('66) looked absolutely scrumptious.

and i was very impressed with Carrie, especially after reading some disappointing reviews of the vid quality on this new issue. yeah the all the fog in the shower scene gave the compression a bit of a hard time but it didn't look that bad, and other scenes simply sparkled with color and crystal clarity.

all this with just my lowly s-video connect.

i'm also stunned at how well some of my non anamorphic titles look.

i still can't understand all this talk about black levels. Batman especially, displayed some pretty inky blacks to these eyes. sheesh.


the only bad thing about being away from it for a week, it made the rainbows a little more jarring. i thought i had my mind-set properly after that first week of intensive viewing, but it looks like it will take another round of pysching myself to chill out when i sit down to watch something.

the " they'll always be there, deal with it" mantra.

there is so much to love about this pj for someone in my situation, its so sad to get hung up on this one element.

such a shame, but i guess for under $2k there has to be some kind of flaw.


[This message has been edited by ckolchak (edited 08-23-2001).]
 

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Ckolchak, make sure you set the player to "enhanced" black mode. As far as the red chroma bug is concerned, I am sure its out there, however, check out the red airplane picture I took from Space Cowboys (Tommy Lee Jones flying the plane). I just don't see a problem here. I will be taking lots of pictures using the 5109 in the next week or so and focusing on reds.


Cheers,


Grant
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Grant,

a little while ago someone posted photos of his set-up with interlaced signals and progressive sigs (thru a laptop, i believe). i have to say his interlaced shots looked far worse than the picture i get from my tosh 2109. to me the picture, at times, is incredibly sharp and detailed.

i doubt the 5109 can improve it much in this area, but i'm curious to see how it will affect the color and contrast, and if i can finally reduce some of the moire and stair stepping.


[This message has been edited by ckolchak (edited 08-23-2001).]


[This message has been edited by ckolchak (edited 08-23-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ok,

so far i've spent 32 hours watching a s-video connection and the last 2 with it hooked up via the breakout for the progressive signal and here are my observations.

i ended up demo'ing about scenes from about a dozen different discs.


at first i was a little disappointed.

the improvement(s) as i anticipated were subtle. sometimes VERY subtle.

the first thing i played was Batman and as i said earlier, this looked great w/ just the s-video.

about the only thing that really was blatant here were the diagonals lines in one scene where the ship is passing by below. these were more solid w/out the slight jagged edges from the interlaced signal.

just like my experience with this exact same player hooked up to my rptv, the first impression i got was

"well, yeah it's a little bit better but not an earth shaking change"

after 2 hours though, i'm not looking forward to swithing it back.

it wasn't until about an hour and 3 or four titles in that i realized that not only was the picture more solid but the colors i was getting now seemed richer, deeper, and more importantly truer. areas that before seemed a bit unstable were more solid, with less shimmering (but not completely stable, still 97% of the way there, though)

i felt like, if i was looking for a huge spectacular change in the image to knock me on my kester, i just couldn't find it. but there were so many little tiny elements to every scene that were improved, sometimes just ever so slightly, that in the end, you think, yes this is a much more pleasing picture after all.

does this make any sense?

before i'd grade the image as a solid B-B+, i don't see how anybody can look at the image from this pj-even with just a s-vid connection, and not think it puts out a good picture, but now, with the p-scan it's definately an A.

i was surprised to see that the progressive signal didn't throw all my current settings out of whack. i adjusted the brightness and contrast for one title a few clicks, but that was it.


i still see some (minor) room for improvment (but i don't feel, at this time, going for any further improvement in the picture is going to be necessary or worth the hassel/expense of a htpc or the mere expense of a scaler...my funds are getting stretched to the limit and i would much rather put them into improving the overall theater i.e sound, furnishings). in fact, if it came down to spending over $2k on either a scaler or htpc, i think i would just buy another LT150, and have a spare bulb ready to go.

right now it would be so easy to keep this player, if i didn't feel i was getting ripped on the price.

price aside, i can see just about anybody being very happy with this model.

at the end of the 2 hours i finally felt like i have seen a system that gives me a picture that is the equivilent of my beloved, and soon to be in someone else's house, HS10.


Superman turned out to be the real revelation. i first noticed the improvement in the opening credits. the straight edges for the crystline titles were perfect and the solar flares finally had a deep rich color to them.

i flipped thru just about all the chapters and each one looked spectacular and a definite improvement over interlaced. by the time i took the disc out, i have no doubt that this film looks better now, than the last time i played it on the rptv.

that's it i was sold.


unfortunately i think i've also finally seen the chroma bug.

i looked for it in many scenes where i would thought i would see it (the destruction of Krypton has some predominantly red shots...) but couldn't find anything.

it wasn't until the terrace scene where i saw the boiling in supermans cape and insignia. i don't know if this is the upsampling error, but it was a definite (if still minor) flaw in the otherwise spectacular picture.

under the lighting conditions of the scene, the red was as close to a primary color as could be. i don't know if this was a factor, since other shades of red appeared rock solid-no smearing, sizzling, etc.

all in all, i feel i can get thru the next 10 days with a little more piece of mind.

now the only thing i need to do is decide if i want to go for a very cheap 5109 online, a moderately cheap 6200, or take a shot on a rp91, or just wait for consumer feedback on the philips and kenwoods.





[This message has been edited by ckolchak (edited 08-23-2001).]
 

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Ckolchak,


I spend some time taking digital pics last night with the 5109 as the source. You guessed it! They are all about the colour red. Lots of pictures from Toy Story II and 15 Minutes. I am having a lot of trouble finding the chroma bug and so is my camera, or perhaps, it's there and I am just not seeing it. If it's there and I am not seeing it then why should I care? Pixels are part of every digial image and I don't see them in my set up, so knowing that they're there should I dump my projector for a CRT or something? Don't think so!


The power of suggestion is amazingly effective - check these things out for yourself. Randy Morton corectly pointed out that the problem in the "Speedway" DVD was not a chroma bug problem, or if it is, then WinDVD has it too (and WinDVD isn't supposed to)! This red chroma bug thing, real though it may be, is in my opinion just a "red" scare. Paranoia over this is rampent! This whole thing is totally out of control. Check out the "airplane" photo on the thread "To Save One Thousand Words" taken with the 5109 - the edges are clean!!!


Cheers,


Grant
 

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You can get the RP91 for $434 at E-cost (and J&R if you give them the web site of E-Cost).

I ordered one just because of unigue auto zoom modes, and great pic and DVD-A.



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Jim Story

Live long and Prosper
 

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I think I will add a little bit to the Toshiba 5109 topic here. After reading Grant's post on how good it was with the LT150, I had to see this for myself (currently I am using the Malata N996 with this projector) and if the 5109 was really better than the Malata, I was all set to keep the 5109 and return the Malata.


I managed to locate one last 5109 left in the local A&B Sound store here in Vancouver and ran home with it to try it out. My first tests were with both the Avia and Video Essentials resolution patterns (Avia's are better and more comprehensive).


I first connected the interlaced component outputs of the 5109 to a fairly high-end Sony production monitor (PVM 2950Q) and checked the 200 line pattern on Avia. Clear as a bell - the vertical lines in the 6.75 MHz circle were defined perfectly. So far so good for the 5109. Then I skipped to the Sharpness pattern on the Avia disc. I saw the same thing which has been reported for the 5109 before - it has pronounced ringing on the edges of lines and the centre circle in that pattern. Not so good. The ringing is a documented feature of the 5109 and not the monitor (whose aperture/sharpness control was set at zero).


I repeated the same tests with the Malata's component outputs set to interlaced. It displayed the 200 line pattern perfectly AND it showed nearly zero ringing in the sharpness pattern. Chalk up one for the Malata.


Next - progressive output tests. This time the LT150 was hooked up as the output device. The 5109 does not allow any choice with respect to the de-interlacing mode. I ran the Malata with deinterlacing set to Film mode (couldn't see any difference between its Smart and Film modes anyway).


With the 5109, the 200 line pattern from Avia again showed up very nicely. Very good definition in the 6.75 MHz circle. Vertical resolution was good to the 480 line limit and lines in the horizontal wedge were quite clear up to the 500 line mark. But I saw the same ringing problem in the sharpness pattern again. On the LT150, these false edges can be pretty annoying to look at.


The Malata passed both the resolution and sharpness tests again in progressive mode. VERY IMPORTANT. This has been already pointed out in this forum and I repeat this - you will lose picture detail if you let the Malata do automatic window boxing of 4:3 material when it is set to output to a 16:9 display. This is supremely clear when one sees the 6.75 MHz circle in Avia. It turns to grey mush when the 4:3 test pattern from Avia is shrunk horizontally. However, if you set the TV type in the Malata as 4:3 (and leave the aspect ratio mode in the LT150 on Movie - 4:3 material gets shrunk vertically), output resolution from the Malata is very good.


In fact, any use of the zoom in either X or Y directions in the Malata causes loss of detail. This may not be evident on regular film/video material, but it is very clear when one sees the test patterns.


I ran some tests with Gladiator, Toy Story, Lost in Space and Fifth Element with both the 5109 and the Malata and the LT150. When watching such material, I could not see any notable advantages of either player over the other. I have never seen the Malata combing yet on any movies I have played (I always keep it in Film mode and watch mainly 24 fps material anyway).


Summary:


Both the 5109 and Malata work well with the LT150 (which by the way seems to have quite a decent internal scaler) when using the Avia 200 line resolution pattern.


The Malata produces cleaner video than the 5109 due to less ringing (sharpness enhancement).


Both players look very similar when deinterlacing film-source material.


The winner (for me) is the Malata. In addition to the lack of ringing, it is a newer machine, has no chroma bug, outputs blacker than black like the 5109, has many more useful picture controls (especially gamma) than the 5109 (none), plays CD-Rs, MP3s etc, does PAL-NTSC conversion, is region free and may yet play DVD-A with a firmware upgrade. It has the same Mediamatics Pantera 8501 guts as the CineUltra and TagMcLaren's DVD32R and seems to deliver the goods.


LT150 users will be happy with this player (I certainly am). The 5109 is going back today.




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Sundar

Vancouver, Canada
 

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"If I was going to spend around $200, is there a reason I wouldn't get the newer Toshiba SD4700 over the 5109? [Edited] Ooops, I guess because they're not out yet?"


According to a local GoodGuys salesman, they should be in the stores _today_. $250. 720 in the warehouse, ~480 pre-ordered.

apg
 

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$199.00 U.S. for a Toshiba 5109! If you're on a tight budget and have a Dell LT150 then this is the way to go - HTPC etc. for later on, but the combination of the LT150 + 5109 for about the same price as the ISCO II retails for! Sounds like a plan to me.


Ckolchat, I think you will notice the biggest difference when you go back to s-video from the 480p of the 5109. Once you get used to a "better" image it's tough to go back and the differences become even more apparent.


Cheers,


Grant
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Wow,

i just stopped back home 'cause business was slow, and if this price is still avail at compusa, i'll definately go for it.

Grant: i like the 5109, on the majority of stuff i tested the picture looked fabulous, but there was a definite problem with certain red areas (primarily when they were close to a primary red)

the superman scene was one place to see it and also the opening title to Jaws 2, which is a solid primary red, and looked horrible. the edges are terrible! but like the case with superman, other scenes with red areas looked better, and some scenes didn't seem to present much of a problem at all.

it doesn't look to be a consistent, across the board quality.


to me, an old school LD fan, this problem with red is really nothing new. the boiling, sizzling effect in the reds was almost always present on LD's ( the Accidental Tourist had this problem excessively). i don't know if it's actually the same problem, but the effect looks quite similar.


but for $200, i could live with it for a while till THE player comes along...and who knows when that'll be...



[This message has been edited by ckolchak (edited 08-28-2001).]
 
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