[Seegs108]

To start off I don't think JVC is looking to match Sony at the 1100ES price point and will hopefully show a 4K projector (more likely UHD resolution) this year at CEDIA that will directly compete with the 600ES next year. Whether Sony is ready to bring the price point of their 4K SXRD chip down another tier is also another big concern. We'll have to wait and see what JVC does.


Here's what I think JVC needs to do to lure potential buyers and possibly sway some 600ES owners to switch over to a JVC:

• It will need to be as bright as the 600ES which is ~1600 calibrated lumens in high lamp mode.
• It should match the 600ES in ANSI contrast which is around 410:1
• It should have roughly equal lens quality and match subjective native image sharpness and pixel delineation before any smart sharpening software
• It should have software similar to RC. Clear black and MPC both do similar things but they should incorporate both into one software package.
• It should have subjective motion qualities similar or surpassing Sony. Both in terms of motion resolution and in terms of how it interpolates the incoming signal.
• It will need to have higher native contrast over the Sony's and I think this is one of the most likely things for the JVC 4K machine to do easily. The tough part here is get native contrast high enough while also getting that extremely high jump in image brightness. Can JVC engineer a light and optical path good enough to get that kind of brightness AND the kind of high contrast ratios we're used to?
• It should include a RF 3D emitter internally and have an port to connect external emitters.
• It should match or best the Sony's in 3D. Both in terms of flicker and crosstalk.
• It should include a refined DI. This should be a dual iris solution similar to how the 600ES functions to limit overall brightness and use of the DI at the same time. From reports the 2014 models have an excellent DI which is impressive for their first attempt, let's see if they can raise the bar. I'm not looking for higher dynamic contrast, just smoother and a less noticeable implementation.
• It should include HDMI 2.0 with an 18 GBps chipset for full HDMI 2.0 compatibility. While the 10.2GBps chipset may suffice, for better compatibility it should include the better chipset.
• It should include a game mode with dramatically less input lag. Many processing features will likely be disabled for this to happen but it should make many people happy even if PQ is reduced to a manageable level.
• It should include a refined Lens Memory feature. Implementations from previous JVC and Sony models are usually hit or miss when loading memories often resulting in a necessary tweak to get it just right.
• It needs to have a fully functional CMS and custom gamma curve software.
• It needs to have similar or better scaling for 1080p content to UHD/4K resolutions. It should be able to vertically stretch 4K content for anamorphic lenses.
• It needs to have something to clear up the image noise introduced by driving the D-ILA panels through pulse-width modulation.
• It should not have an issue with image streaking like previous 1080p units.
• If possible it should include an FI solution at 4K resolutions. This may be a no-go for a number of years. The processing power needed is considerable but it would be nice if JVC had a proprietary chipset designed and tuned for such needs. This is not needed but many would find it a huge plus.
• And finally, it needs to have a street price around $10000 in the US. Sorry Europe

Limitations or complications JVC may face to bring this product to market at a similar price point of the Sony 600ES:


The first thing that I can think of is that JVC has traditionally manufactured their entire line up of home theater DILA projectors with economies of scale in mind. They were able to bring us so many high quality/high value models at various price points simply because each projector in the lineup used the vast majority of the same parts internally and externally. I highly doubt JVC will bring us multiple 4K units the first year. The biggest thing that will suffer will most likely be the lens. JVC doesn't do their lenses in-house. I believe Sony uses their in-house manufacturer (Carl Zeiss) to produce the lenses in their 4K models (I could be wrong). Without having their own lens manufacturer or economies of scale to bring down the price this may hinder JVC to match what the Sony 600ES has.


I think the next biggest issue would be the availability of the 18 GBps HDMI 2.0 chipset. Maybe JVC can create their own like Panasonic has in sufficient numbers for their projectors.


I'm sure I missed a few things consumers will want. Feel free to discuss and keep in mind the price point of the unit. I highly doubt they'll go past the MSRP of the Sony 600ES as JVC hasn't been known to enter that pricing tier.


Also, current Sony 4K owners (600/500ES and 1000/1100ES), would such a projector make you consider switching over to a JVC?

 

[blee0120]

I think something like you suggested JVC should do won't happen for the upcoming models but for the following models. They will probably need another year to see what they are capable of doing at the $12,000 and under price point. Plus, they may not be able to put 18Gbps chips in the upcoming models. In two years, I think JVC will have a killer 4K unit, and they might incorporate eshift 8K

 

[mark haflich]

Seegs, Did you mean to say 10.2 GBS chips rather than your stated 12 GBS chips?

 

[Drexler]

So you're saying jvc should overcome all of the current generations shortcomings, keep or impove on their contrast advantage and equal or best the sony in every category imaginable? Plus it should be cheaper too. Somehow I dont see this happening...

 

[Mike Garrett]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony#post_24476535


So you're saying jvc should overcome all of the current generations shortcomings, keep or impove on their contrast advantage and equal or best the sony in every category imaginable? Plus it should be cheaper too. Somehow I dont see this happening...

On top of that, asking it to happen with their first entry into consumer 4K and you have a tall order. Not saying it can't happen, but it is a very ambitious list.

 

[Toe]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony#post_24476535


So you're saying jvc should overcome all of the current generations shortcomings, keep or impove on their contrast advantage and equal or best the sony in every category imaginable? Plus it should be cheaper too. Somehow I dont see this happening...

Yeah, this is definitely a wish list. While we are dreaming, lets put a laser light source in as well!

As far as lag goes, JVC has made it clear that they don't seem to care about this small segment of the market (gamers) since many have been requesting a game mode for years now to no avail. Lag actually got significantly worse this year I believe......isn't it 130 ms this year?

 

[Kris Deering]

Honestly, from what I've seen so far from both of them, the only thing JVC would need to do to be competitive with the Sony for 4K or surpass them for most people is keep the price points the same or near the same for the their upper two models and make them native 4K, include HDMI 2.0, increase brightness to near Sony levels and reduce the noise of their fan to Sony levels. Sony's dynamic iris solution isn't as good as JVC's from what I've seen so far, especially in terms of brightness compression. Plus the Sony's are getting contrast values and performance with their DI that is more in line with the JVC without it. I'm sure like every year JVC will do a few more refinements but both projector lines have work to do and there will ALWAYS be faults with both. For 4K JVC does need a brighter projector since 4K is designed for bigger screens and Sony has a big edge there. But they also need to work on fan noise. But I don't think they need much more than what I listed to be very competitive. I think even e-shift 3 is pretty competitive with the 600ES with everything but native 4K (and even there the differences aren't huge except in the really fine details with direct comparison) and brightness. Most of the other differences are fleeting at best. Sony clearly wins for brightness and sharpness with 4K material, JVC clearly wins for contrast. Everything else is pretty similar with fleeting differences. I will have more time to do direct comparisons next week as I will have a 600ES on hand for extended use and more comparisons to the X700.

 

[Seegs108]

Remember my question though. I want to know what it would take for current Sony 4K owners to switch over. I think that JVC would need to at least match Sony and best them in a few areas for this to happen. Most things on that list come simply from a well designed light path with a good choice in optics and a bright enough bulb. The rest of what I'm asking are simply tweaks or small upgrades to software and hardware they already implement. The only features I ask them to add are an RF emitter internally, a way to clear up PWM noise, a game mode, and to create panels with slightly better motion resolution. I don't think my list is that ambitious, but realistic for what most would consider a 4K projector from them at $10000 that has most of the features I listed.


Yes, Mark I meant 10.2 GBps

 

[Craig Peer]



Quote:
I'm sure I missed a few things consumers will want. Feel free to discuss and keep in mind the price point of the unit. I highly doubt they'll go past the MSRP of the Sony 600ES as JVC hasn't been known to enter that pricing tier.

Well, JVC has had a 4K projector available for several years now - at around $40K. So I don't necessarily think that they wouldn't compete in the VW600 price class. Much as many here wish there would suddenly be relatively inexpensive 4K projectors.

 

[Seegs108]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony/0_50#post_24477565


Well, JVC has had a 4K projector available for several years now - at around $40K. So I don't necessarily think that they wouldn't compete in the VW600 price class. Much as many here wish there would suddenly be relatively inexpensive 4K projectors.

Is that model geared towards consumer home theater?

 

[Craig Peer]

No, but " trickle down " starts at the top. Wait until you see pricing on 4K DLP.

 

[Seegs108]

I knew the answer to my question. I also don't think $10000 street is suddenly a lot cheaper. Its right in line with Sony. They sell it for ~$4000 less in Japan. There's a little wiggle room on pricing.

 

[Craig Peer]

So what does JVC need to accomplish to compete with Sony 4K units? Build a slightly better projector for 5% less money - there aren't any other 4K projectors available anyway.

 

[Seegs108]

To get people to choose the JVC over the Sony, yes. They've been building cheaper, better, 1080p projectors for years now. Why change that? That is the whole point of this thread. What does JVC need to do?

 

[darinp2]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony#post_24477514


Remember my question though. I want to know what it would take for current Sony 4K owners to switch over.

I do remember your original question (and it is right there to remind me). That isn't really what you asked in the title or in the original post (which included "possibly sway some" along with referencing other buyers).. JVC doesn't have to match or beat Sony on everything to compete just like Sony doesn't have to match or beat JVC on everything to compete. How far they have to go for 600ES owners depends partially on how many of them they want to sway.


It will likely be pick your poison time just like it pretty much always is. Even real 4K and support for an upcoming 4K Blu-ra format without much else would likely lure some 600ES owners if Sony doesn't improve anything, but there is a good chance Sony will have improvements too.


I believe JVC really has to pick their battles with the resources they have available and while it would be nice to see everything on the list, it seems very unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony#post_24477514


I highly doubt they'll go past the MSRP of the Sony 600ES as JVC hasn't been known to enter that pricing tier.

The JVC HD2K was I believe $30k. People could say it has been a while, but when the market calls for it JVC will price high. I'm sure you know your comment is very US centric also. I checked Japan and a VW500 can be had for less than a JVC 700.


I think the more likely reason JVC wouldn't go really high in price is because of the Sony competition, which may include a replacement for the 500/600. And who knows if Sony will keep the same price discrepancy between the US and elsewhere on their next model.


Even if JVC has plans to show a 4K at CEDIA I doubt they would know yet how they will price it. Sometimes it seems like companies are waiting for others to show their hands around the CEDIA timeframe before finalizing their own pricing.


--Darin

 

[Seegs108]



Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony/0_50#post_24477904


I do remember your original question (and it is right there to remind me). That isn't really what you asked in the title or in the original post.

You didn't read the whole post then.

(read the last line)

 

[Mike Garrett]



Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2  /t/1522343/jvc-4k-projector-what-does-jvc-need-to-accomplish-to-compete-with-sony#post_24477904


I do remember your original question (and it is right there to remind me). That isn't really what you asked in the title or in the original post (which included "possibly sway some" along with referencing other buyers).. JVC doesn't have to match or beat Sony on everything to compete just like Sony doesn't have to match or beat JVC on everything to compete. How far they have to go for 600ES owners depends partially on how many of them they want to sway.


It will likely be pick your poison time just like it pretty much always is. Even real 4K and support for an upcoming 4K Blu-ra format without much else would likely lure some 600ES owners if Sony doesn't improve anything, but there is a good chance Sony will have improvements too.


I believe JVC really has to pick their battles with the resources they have available and while it would be nice to see everything on the list, it seems very unlikely.

The JVC HD2K was I believe $30k. People could say it has been a while, but when the market calls for it JVC will price high. I'm sure you know your comment is very US centric also. I checked Japan and a VW500 can be had for less than a JVC 700.


I think the more likely reason JVC wouldn't go really high in price is because of the Sony competition, which may include a replacement for the 500/600. And who knows if Sony will keep the same price discrepancy between the US and elsewhere on their next model.


Even if JVC has plans to show a 4K at CEDIA I doubt they would know yet how they will price it. Sometimes it seems like companies are waiting for others to show their hands around the CEDIA timeframe before finalizing their own pricing.


--Darin

The 600 will carry through next year (2 year run). Not to say that Sony will not have another 4K projector, but if they do and it is lower priced, then it will be missing features such as lens memory and power lens features.

 

[d.j.]

And what should Sony do, to get some JVC owner as customers....?



One thing = make a much higher native CR !

Would such a projector make you consider switching over to a Sony ?

dj

 

[Ericglo]

Here is a question. How many owners are there of the Sony 4k pjs? Maybe the market isn't big enough or profitable enough for JVC to worry about right now. Besides someone has mentioned that JVC is coming out with a new light engine, which is a bigger deal for me than 4k.

 

[Seegs108]

You make an interesting point. I kind of played at this idea in the OP. I think JVC is keeping an eye on the market deciding when it's best to dive in. I'm hoping it will be this year with a higher MSRP as opposed to next year at a price point where something like the x700 is. I say that because I'm looking for lens quality to be around what the 600ES has.