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Coderguy. I haven't forgotten asbout you. I don't get or agree with a statement that Runcos calibrate better because they are closer to having a correct calibration out of the box. If one unit is calibrated by the manufacturer and another of the same unit is not, they should both be caple of the same level or quality of calibration If projector X, not a Runco, is off even considerably out of the box, if the right controls are there, if they have enough available range, if they are independent in operation etc, there is no reason it can't be calibrated as one out of the box. Of course if a projector simply can't produce the correct primaries, it can't be calibrated correctly Usually one primary will be the overall limitation re luminosity and the others will have to be lowered to produce the correct percentages of each..
 

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Discussion Starter #22

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration#post_23795958


Hmm, my understanding was the JVC created an interface that is then compatible with certain calibration software.

You are saying JVC gives you its own free calibration software that supports all the meter profiles?

They have this : http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x95r_x75r_xc7800r_rs66_rs56_calibrationsoft.html and this http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x90r_xc988r_rs65_calibrationsoft.html both of which only work with the Spyder 3 or 4.


You load the software onto a PC which connects to the projector via the network, it runs the test patterns, calculates the results and stores them to a user profile.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration#post_23796138


Coderguy. I haven't forgotten asbout you. I don't get or agree with a statement that Runcos calibrate better because they are closer to having a correct calibration out of the box. If one unit is calibrated by the manufacturer and another of the same unit is not, they should both be caple of the same level or quality of calibration If projector X, not a Runco, is off even considerably out of the box, if the right controls are there, if they have enough available range, if they are independent in operation etc, there is no reason it can't be calibrated as one out of the box. Of course if a projector simply can't produce the correct primaries, it can't be calibrated correctly Usually one primary will be the overall limitation re luminosity and the others will have to be lowered to produce the correct percentages of each..

In a perfect world, and usually on DLP's, but with 3 Panels in the sub-$5000 class...


Because the optimal hardware tuning of the internals as related to posterization and noise is often done closest to the default profiles. Though this profile drifts to how the meter reads, the drift often only makes the problem more substantial because you get even farther off the default.


I agree some projectors can, I'm sure your vw1000es is very good at it, but some of these cheaper projectors just don't calibrate that well. I said I am not sure about the newer JVC's, we are not talking about all projectors, just certain JVC's and some others I've seen.
 

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Discussion Starter #26

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration#post_23796138


Coderguy. I haven't forgotten asbout you. I don't get or agree with a statement that Runcos calibrate better because they are closer to having a correct calibration out of the box. If one unit is calibrated by the manufacturer and another of the same unit is not, they should both be caple of the same level or quality of calibration If projector X, not a Runco, is off even considerably out of the box, if the right controls are there, if they have enough available range, if they are independent in operation etc, there is no reason it can't be calibrated as one out of the box. Of course if a projector simply can't produce the correct primaries, it can't be calibrated correctly Usually one primary will be the overall limitation re luminosity and the others will have to be lowered to produce the correct percentages of each..

Hi Mark, do you have any thoughts about the thread topic?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration/0_50#post_23795887


The auto-calibration is done in conjunction with software, like Calman or ChromaPure, and usually a Lumagen as well, doubt the new JVC comes with its own software to do it?

Wait a sec, I thought he problem was when the adjustments were done internally in the JVC; are you saying the same thing happens if they're done within the Lumagen?
 

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Again, I never said the problem is with all projectors, I simply said on some JVC's I've calibrated, including my RS-45. And when this problem exists, the posterization isn't about getting the correct 709 primaries and secondaries (even though this requires a Lumagen on the 45 since no CMS), but getting it to the correct positions is often what causes the posterization on some projectors. I have seen it on DLP's too, the Viewsonic Pro8200 is one, though it's very very minor compared to the JVC.


If the problem occurs when you manually do a step, then the auto-cal is usually less-likely to fix it, because auto-cal isn't magic, it's just software modifying things until it gets it right. Though it keeps getting better every year, not sure who has the best auto-cal profiles. I never tried it on a Lumagen.


Zombie10k has done the auto-cals on the JVC RS-55, you can ask him.


I'm saying the limitation is an inherent hardware or firmware fault to the way the color table is interpreted. cannot fix it with auto-cal, but no idea if it applies to the newer JVC's.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration#post_23796133


We know that the final step in calibration is viewing (and approving) reference material. Look at the Panasonic 2011 30 series PDPs for example. It would be nice if we could AB projectors but for a calibrator on a reasonable clock it just isn't practical although it would be nice.

I agree with you completely, though you'd be surprised how many calibrators think the final step is checking the gray-scale one last time to see if it might have drifted, rather than actually watching something
 

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Discussion Starter #31

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Originally Posted by coderguy  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration#post_23796177


Because non-specialists in software rarely make it correctly, too much lack of user input / testing. Chromapure and Calman have been at it for years.

I assume from your username that you would know better than me, but surely this isn't s/w rocket science - display, measure, calculate, check. I guess JVC have some understanding of how projectors work - in particular their ones.


However, this brings us full circle. The question is how does it compare to a manual/pro calibration or one done using products like Chromapure and CalMAN?
 

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Ask Tom Huffman in the Display Calibration thread for Chromapure, he is the one that can tell you.


Well I think if you just let it do gray-scale and then post-adjust the gamma whitepoint manually below 20 IRE to correct the JVC's notorious shadow detail crushing, then you can probably get a good result with auto-cal. I suspect if you let auto-cal go hog wild and do everything, it might end up looking funny. However, I would still suggest using Chromapure and a D3 with a lumagen for the best auto-cal result (or use Chromapure and the D3 with the JVC without the lumagen, if Chromapure now supports this, I think only Calman supported auto-cal without a lumagen?).


I don't think the auto-cal features are quite to the point of matching manual calibrations yet, though they might be on their way, but how well a specific device auto-calibrates depends on the device.
 

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Discussion Starter #33

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Originally Posted by coderguy  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration/30#post_23796304


Ask Tom Huffman in the Display Calibration thread for Chromapure, he is the one that can tell you.


Well I think if you just let it do gray-scale and then post-adjust the gamma whitepoint manually below 20 IRE to correct the JVC's notorious shadow detail crushing, then you can probably get a good result with auto-cal. I suspect if you let auto-cal go hog wild and do everything, it might end up looking funny. However, I would still suggest using Chromapure and a D3 with a lumagen for the best auto-cal result (or use Chromapure and the D3 with the JVC without the lumagen, if Chromapure now supports this, I think only Calman supported auto-cal without a lumagen?).


I don't think the auto-cal features are quite to the point of matching manual calibrations yet, though they might be on their way, but how well a specific device auto-calibrates depends on the device.

Thanks coderguy, I do appreciate your replies. I am still surprised that other that must have tried this have not discussed it before. I have been a lurked on here for years and have never seen Mark Haflich not respond.


BTW, the current JVC projectors with CMS have a 'dark/bright' adjustment to tweak high and low gamma. I use this to optimize the shadow detail.
 

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I thought that the problem was that pj's internal video processing don't have high enough bit depth, and that Lumagen's have more, and don't have the problem
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration/30#post_23796693


I thought that the problem was that pj's internal video processing don't have high enough bit depth, and that Lumagen's have more, and don't have the problem

I think that is part of the problem, but since you cannot technically turn off the JVC's processing of the bit depth (hence the JVC controls are still "re-calibrating" the Lumagen's result), then the JVC's end processing might still have jumbled the posterization. I don't know for sure if the Lumagen's own multi-point gamma calibration produces a cleaner result on the RS-45, maybe ask Zombie or Tom Huffman.


In general though, the farther away you are forced to calibrate from the projector's BEST default profile (JVC usually Cinema mode), then the more likely overall there are adverse effects. This has been a common problem with projectors for years and years, but I notice on a DLP I can adjust that stuff pretty extremely.


Ironically, DLP's are said to have more banding issues, but when a DLP gets a banding issue it is very obvious and not so hidden as the LCOS. I think the LCOS posterization issues are often more easily seen in low-APL shots or mixed contrast that are mostly dark, so it just makes it harder to tell if it's posterization or a dirty image.
 

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I just purchased my first JVC, a RS4910, and was excited about autocalibrate. I'm surprised that this is a two page thread about a projector that has supported this for a couple years. Looking at the Spyder 4 Elite (the only one supported by the 4910) its retail is about $249, and Chromapure 2.2 and Calman 5 can be had, with and i1pro meter for not much more. Plus, you can use those other systems on your other TVs, monitors, etc. (though I suppose you could do the same witht eh Spyder). Is this the reason for the huge lack of popularity? I mean, JVC holds the cards in how well (and by whom) their pjs can be calibrated. They could lock out all advanced picture controls unless you your thier autocal. Just curious what people think about this?
 

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I am eagerly waiting for people's impressions...what can this autocalibration achieve? How close can it get to the real thing? Nobody seems to have directly compared both methods so far? Anybody has tried the software with compatible last year' models...i mean, this autocal option has been around for more than a year, no impressions at all???
 

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I have tried downloading the autocal. software from JVC today, but a serial number is needed so I will have to wait for my PJ to arrive. The good news is the autocalibration software works with both spyder4 pro or elite packages (the only difference is the datacolor software whis in not needed anyway, the light meter is the same), so no need to pay extra for the elite package.


I really think I will order a spyder4 pro package after making sure the JVC autocal. software allows custom calibration targets and not only calibration to maintain the original (uncalibrated) factory settings. Can anyone confirm that?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration/30#post_24168574


I have tried downloading the autocal. software from JVC today, but a serial number is needed so I will have to wait for my PJ to arrive. The good news is the autocalibration software works with both spyder4 pro or elite packages (the only difference is the datacolor software whis in not needed anyway, the light meter is the same), so no need to pay extra for the elite package.


I really think I will order a spyder4 pro package after making sure the JVC autocal. software allows custom calibration targets and not only calibration to maintain the original (uncalibrated) factory settings. Can anyone confirm that?

Here is a good post by Manni explaining the difference between JVC's autocal and autocal by Calman.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486011/new-range-jvc-2014/2850#post_24168748
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stef2  /t/1493203/jvc-auto-calibration/30#post_24168574


I have tried downloading the autocal. software from JVC today, but a serial number is needed so I will have to wait for my PJ to arrive. The good news is the autocalibration software works with both spyder4 pro or elite packages (the only difference is the datacolor software whis in not needed anyway, the light meter is the same), so no need to pay extra for the elite package.


I really think I will order a spyder4 pro package after making sure the JVC autocal. software allows custom calibration targets and not only calibration to maintain the original (uncalibrated) factory settings. Can anyone confirm that?

I would go with a different meter if you haven't already ordered it. I've been out of the loop for a few months, so not sure what the current meter is, the D3 / C6 were the old ones from a couple years ago.

You want the CAlman or ChromaPure software, not the JVC stuff
 
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