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Manni, a small data point for you:

I had measured a gamma droop on my RS4910 a few months ago (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ay-calibration-software-152.html#post28129242). A few weeks later (once my Spyder arrived) I was able to run the JVC autocal on the greyscale+gamma, after which the droop was gone. Unfortunately I was in a hurry and so I did not verify the gamma droop was still present immediately before running the autocal, but I do know afterwards I was able to confirm with my i1D3+HCFR that the droop was gone. As I was in a hurry (young kids) and also am not too experienced with calibration, I can't say what, if any, impact the autocal may have had to other performance parameters (e.g., max calibrated lumens) to correct for the droop.
To add, I recently needed to factory reset my JVC and so I'll be working on re-calibrating it from scratch over the next weeks -- I'll start with the JVC autocal (maybe its drooping again!), and so I'll keep everyone up to date. I do wish the documentation for the JVC autocal software was not so terse; in particular, Harry's description of needing to calibrate for different iris,cmd,etc settings (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...3203-jvc-auto-calibration-3.html#post24486923) is completely non-obvious from the documentation.

Also I just picked up a Lumagen Radiance XS3D and so I'll be playing with that too, although initially only with manual CMS/gamma tweaks -- I have not yet picked up a Calman Enthusiast license for the 3D LUT, anyone know of a good deal for a license?

Thanks jjcook,


When you redo it, please make a note of the exact settings you use, and please provide a screenshot of the three screens after the calibration (gamma, color temp, gamut).


I've tried everything, and while the gamma calibration does something, it doesn't do good only (black crush due to wrong value at 5% white) and not enough (most of the droop is still there after the correction.


I've wiped the small corrections it had doen (went back to factory settings and only added the color correction) because the JVCs really don't need any added black crush.


You should call/email spectracal sales, they are good guys, ask them for there best deal, it's worth every penny :).
 

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Spyder 3 Pro?

I thought the JVC autocal would work with the Spyder 3? But it won't detect it.

I measured my OTB Cinema Mode, Normal Gamma using my i1Pro and HCFR 3.1 and let's just say it struggles to get a 1.7 gamma and drops off in the upper range quite a bit. Playing around with other gamma settings seemed to have little affect. I won't post any screen shots of HCFR here since this is about the JVC autocal. Looks like I need to get a Spyder 4 Pro in-bound.

Edit: I found on the JVC site software for the Spyder 3 - though it's for the RS56, 76 etc. models. I'll see if it works.
 

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Manni,

Your results with Custom profile are amazing.
I bet your picture is stunning with this kind of linearity.
Did you modified a lot your Custom profile from default?to achieve these results?
I hope you will be able to modify also your gamma drop,and if you do,your projector will be too good to be true:eek::).
 

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I thought the JVC autocal would work with the Spyder 3? But it won't detect it.

I measured my OTB Cinema Mode, Normal Gamma using my i1Pro and HCFR 3.1 and let's just say it struggles to get a 1.7 gamma and drops off in the upper range quite a bit. Playing around with other gamma settings seemed to have little affect. I won't post any screen shots of HCFR here since this is about the JVC autocal. Looks like I need to get a Spyder 4 Pro in-bound.

Edit: I found on the JVC site software for the Spyder 3 - though it's for the RS56, 76 etc. models. I'll see if it works.


Here is the version you need with the latest models: http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...80_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html


It might work with the Spyder3, better check with the new software before buying a Spyper4.


Manni,

Your results with Custom profile are amazing.
I bet your picture is stunning with this kind of linearity.
Did you modified a lot your Custom profile from default?to achieve these results?
I hope you will be able to modify also your gamma drop,and if you do,your projector will be too good to be true:eek::).
What's truly amazing is that the "before LUT" measurements are without any CMS correction! I just slightly corrected the white point, and did my usual gamma trick to add 20% brightness and get a reasonably flat curve.


With just that, I got all the points under 2.9 and an average of 0.9dE2000JNDab. This means that I have a great profile for all my non MadVR sources.


I didn't get this result correcting any of the presets (even standard, see the screenshot for it). I had to create a custom color profile and calibrate it with the JVC profile as described above.


All the JVC profiles had significant errors after correction, but that might be due to the fact that the JVC software doesn't seem to correct much most of the time.


Yes I really wish I'll be able to get gamma to work with the JVC software. Not for my critical viewing because MadVR gets it 100% correct anyway (like the Radiance would), so I'm used to seeing the best of what these can do, but it would be great for my non madVR sources as I would get a better gamma curve than what I get using the JVC internal controls (although the droop is fully correctable manually for now).
 

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Just to pick up on your last comment Manni, that the gamma droop is fully correctable manually now. I take it this means just using the JVC's gamma controls? I tried various iterations (higher custom gamma like 2.6, using the tone control and the bright and dark controls), but I couldn't get rid of the droop manually on mine.

Rather than risk any issue with excessive processing in the JVC I just ended up using custom gamma 2.6 and raised the dark gamma to +3 before running Chromapure/Lumagen autocal.

I've seen the import option on a menu, so I know understand what the purpose of this is. It's a shame it doesn't work with either my i1D2 or i1D3 Pro though as I'd be willing to give it a try myself. At the moment I can't justify buying another sensor just to experiment since as you know I can get good results using the CP/Lumagen autocal.

I just clocked over 100 hours on mine last night, so I'll probably be running another full calibration again by the end of next week (I have some colleagues coming over for a film night, so I want it to look it's best :)).
 

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Just to pick up on your last comment Manni, that the gamma droop is fully correctable manually now. I take it this means just using the JVC's gamma controls? I tried various iterations (higher custom gamma like 2.6, using the tone control and the bright and dark controls), but I couldn't get rid of the droop manually on mine.

Rather than risk any issue with excessive processing in the JVC I just ended up using custom gamma 2.6 and raised the dark gamma to +3 before running Chromapure/Lumagen autocal.

I've seen the import option on a menu, so I know understand what the purpose of this is. It's a shame it doesn't work with either my i1D2 or i1D3 Pro though as I'd be willing to give it a try myself. At the moment I can't justify buying another sensor just to experiment since as you know I can get good results using the CP/Lumagen autocal.

I just clocked over 100 hours on mine last night, so I'll probably be running another full calibration again by the end of next week (I have some colleagues coming over for a film night, so I want it to look it's best :)).

Hi Kelvin,


Yes, I can get a very decent BT1886 gamma curve using the internal gamma controls (for now). No idea what will happen if the gamma droop gets worse, as I have to go to the maximum bright value (+7) and the maximum dark value (+7) to get it balanced.


It doesn't seem to have any bad effect of levels/clipping etc, plus I do get 20% more peak brightness with the gamma bright control at +7. This brings my peak white from 50 to 60cd/m2 and my contrast ratio from 50000:1 to 60000:1, so not to be scoffed at.


I've tried the Elite, it seems to be marginally more accurate re greyscale, and I haven't checked yet the custom color profile I've asked it to calibrate to compare it with the one I did with the Pro. Otherwise it returns the same results for gamma.


I think the problem is with the internal targets of the projector. The software works as it should, it just calibrates to the wrong targets for gamut (at least in standard) and gamma.


I've asked GaryB in the UK thread if there was a way to update these values using a low-level f/w upgrade, hopefully he'll find out.


I attach a few screenshot of the calibration of the standard colour profile with the Elite. As you'll see, it's very similar to the Pro.
 

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Manni,

Are you pointing the meter at the PJ or the screen for the cals?

I have an spyder 4 elite coming in so I'll know if the JVC auto cal will work me or not to fix my gamma.
 

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Here is the version you need with the latest models: http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/...80_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html

It might work with the Spyder3, better check with the new software before buying a Spyper4.
That version, which I tried to use last night, is only for the Spyder 4. However, here is where the older version are. Click agree on the first page and it takes you to another page where it has software for the Spyder 4 and 3 (seperate versions).

I decided not to chance it. If I can get auto cal to work, I'll keep the spyder 4 to be able to do that quickly every once in a while - otherwise, it goes back. I sure wish my i1D3 pro would work!
 

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Although you could face the screen, the Spyder4 struggles in low light, so depending on your setup it might work or not.


My advice is to face the projector so you calibrate the projector baseline, then you do a proper calibration with your non-junk meter facing the screen.


By the way, I can confirm that there is NO difference between the pro and the elite, just unit to unit variation. If your pro is not good, send it back and get another one, not an elite. The only differences are with the software.


I compared the calibrations produced by the Pro Elite in Calman (using the Discus trained to the i1pro2) and the custom profile the Elite generates from my HDTV custom targets is undersaturated for red, blue and magenta, therefore not fully correctable. It might be due to the difference in color temp (it doesn't see the white point in the same place, which seems to shift everything).
So the Elite is going back, and I'm keeping the pro, as I'd rather keeps the meter which gives the widest profiles from whichever coordinates.


I also attach the greyscale generated after the JVC Autocal, so you can see the gamma droop that remains, and how I can correct it using the internal controls (that's for Kevin). Kevin, I use -10 for picture tone, +7 for dark and +7 for bright white, and then just a +1 for bright blue.
As you can see, it's not perfect but it's a pretty decent BT1886.
I attach the linearity checks for my "golden" HDTV custom profile, as generated by the Pro and as generated by the Elite. All calman measurements are made with the Discus trained to the i1Pro2 (fresh profile), so it's really showing the way the Elite and the Pro calibrate to the same targets (my golden HDTV custom profile).
The Pro version here is a new one I generated from the same memory slot, in place of the one generated by the Elite.
I'm not sure if the changes are changes in the profile, or if it's the change in the color temp that changes the custom profiles.
I have a feeling that the JVC software only uploads the chosen gamut coordinates, the color temp white point and the gamma target in these profiles, because uploading a new one into a new slot called Rec-709 in Custom2 (I didn't want to loose my golden HDTV in custom1 while testing the Spyder4 Elite) actually changed both.
Apparently I didn't get the 5% black crush with the last gamma+color I did with the Spyder4 Pro, so maybe that was a one off.
In any case, gamma is still not working, so I hope we'll find a solution.
I also attach my luminance target, so you can see the effect of the gamma bright control set to +7: +20% brightness, +20% on/off contrast.
Overall, as long as the gamma droop doesn't get worse, I'm very happy with this now that I have a perfect base for my non MadVR sources.
Even if only to be able to generate the custom color profile, I think it's worth the investment in a Spyder4 Pro.
 

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Certainly looks like your manual correction resolves the droop for now. Mine is much more of a downwards slope than that, but I may not have tried such extreme settings as yours, more for fear of causing issues like banding or posturisation. As it is, so far I've rarely seen any banding at all which is an improvement over my X35 (or perhaps the way I set it up pre CP autocal).

I'm finding that the image is very clean on the X500 and it shows more obviously the difference between poorer sources such as some ITV HD content compared to say Top Gear on BBC 2 HD. Of course BD look better still, but it's odd that I wasn't as aware of this with my X35...
 

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Trust me Kelvin, I do check for banding and posterization. There are none.
Also it would be interesting if you could check bright white at +7 and confirm is you get 20% more brightness or if I have a golden unit :)


The only way to resolve the droop is to push it to +7, at least here.
 

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Manni I did check regarding the bright gamma extra brightness tweak and it only works on certain profiles, non of which are any good for my LUT correction due to under saturation/colour luminance issues.

If I use profile OFF/High brightness colour temp then I'm already at the highest brightness with high gamma at 0 so I can't gain any extra brightness, it just clips if I increase the bright gamma. I'm clipping the red and blue in the colour clipping patterns on AVSH709 in this profile with everything else set to 0, After the LUT correction the red and blue aren't clipping anymore, nor any of the secondaries.

There seems to be some differences between our individual examples judging from the profiles you can use verses my results with the same profiles. I suppose it just underlines how no one should copy other user's settings (not that you or I would of course).
 

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Although I agree there is significant unit to unit variation, I was able to use the bright gamma trick with high bright (that used to be my favourite color temp re peak brightness until I used the JVC autocal to do my color temp, now I get similar peak brightness with high bright or 6500K once both are adjusted to get 100% white exactly at D65).


I don't remember with profile off.


You would find the JVC autocal software useful to create a wide profile (I used DCI and D65) so that you're not limited to High Bright (plus can use clear black).
You would also benefit from a custom profile very close to reference (although getting one as good as the one I got is clearly luck of the draw, as illustrated with the disappointing Elite results). You could create a custom profile with custom targets to counteract the meter's deficiencies, but it's nicer if the meter produces good profiles to start with, like the Pro.
Whether this is worth it without the gamma curves being corrected is up to everyone's needs. As I use the PJ without a further correction for my non MadVR source, that was a definite yes.
As you use a Radiance for all your sources, as long as you don't mind the limitations of profile off, you're probably fine without it.
I'll update the thread when I hear back from Gary in the UK, once my notes will reach Japan and we hear what JVC says about this gamma issue.
 

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@blkblzr00:
To create a custom profile:
1) go to create profile (second option on main menu) then select a default colorspace, white point and gamma, or create your own.
I used HDTV, D65 and 2.2. Then you save the profile, give it a name (that's the name you'll see in the JVC menu later), author, click export and give it a file name (I used HDTV).
2) Then go to import/export (3rd option on the main menu), you select the custom colour profile memory slot you want to us (you have five of them called initially custom1-5), then you click import and you select the custom file you've just created in step 1. It takes a while to upload the info to the JVC, so be patient.
3) On the JVC, using you remote, select a custom color profile and then in the list of profiles select the custom colour profile you've just uploaded. It should now be called the name you have given it (say HDTV). If it's still called custom1-5, something went wrong in a step before. So for example in colour profile custom1, you should have selected what used to be custom profile1, now called HDTV.
4) Go to the calibrate option (in settings, select color only if you want but for custom profiles the software skips gamma and colour temp anyway), and select the custom color profile in which you've selected the custom colour profile you've created. Follow me?
5) Calibrate this profile using the JVC software. It will skip gamma automatically. When it's finished, SAVE.


Now you should have that calibrated profile loaded in the JVC. If you are as lucky as I was, you'll get something like the attached.


I really struck gold with that: with a profile of 2000 points, a max dE of 2.9 and an average dE under 1! that's before any 3D LUT applied.
A colorchecker SG with a max dE of 2.5 and an average dE of 1.
A linearity check with an average dE of 0.7.
After applying a MadVR LUT (created from that 2000 points profile), it gets crazy accurate with one single point one the Colorchecked SG around 3, all the other points under 2 and an average dE of 0.4!
Linearity check with an average dE of 0.3 and 0.6, max dE of 1.1 and 1.5.


These are the best results I ever had on any JVC, both before a LUT and after, so I'm very happy with this.


I'm only trying the Elite in case it helps with the gamma issue, otherwise I'll probably keep the Pro as it gives excellent results for both color temp and gamut.


To contrast, I attach a "corrected" standard profile, as you can't see it's not comparable to the HDTV profile I created and calibrated with the JVC software.


Re your gamma calibration, please could you provide the settings you're using and also screenshots of the gamma, gamut and colortemp screens at the end of the calibration? Thanks. You'll have to redo a non custom colour profile as color temp and gamma are not corrected for these.


Good luck!


Manni
Here is what I came up with after making the HDTV profile with the bulb on low and the iris at 0. I apologize for the quality of the photos. Feel free to give any input as I'm new to this.
 

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Here is what I came up with after making the HDTV profile with the bulb on low and the iris at 0. I apologize for the quality of the photos. Feel free to give any input as I'm new to this.
Here are the results with the bulb on High. Thank you all for the help.
 

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Here are the results with the bulb on High. Thank you all for the help.
Here is what I came up with after making the HDTV profile with the bulb on low and the iris at 0. I apologize for the quality of the photos. Feel free to give any input as I'm new to this.
These look good. As it's a custom profile, only the gamut is calibrated, as indicated by the "-" where the gamma and color temp profiles should be shown.


If you haven't done so already, select a non custom colour preset (like standard) and run a full gamma+color calibration, both in low and high lamp (you are aware that you also need to calibrate for each iris opening and CMD mode you might use). I suggest to do gamma with the iris fully open in both lamp modes, while making sure that the spyder is still within the limit, then do color only for the other iris/CMD you use.


If you want to cover all iris openings, do a color calibration with the iris set to 0, -5, -10 and -15. You have to do this for all lamp modes and all CMD modes you use.


If you always use the same settings, just do one. If you want to be able to switch iris and CMD settings freely, you have to do it for all these values.


When you do the first gamma+color in say standard with the iris fully open, please post the screenshots for your gamma, gamut and color temp screen. I'd like to see if your gamma seems to be corrected or not.
 

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How close to the PJ does one place the meter?
Look at the graphic after you click on the spyder/meter button. The meter on the screen should be within the limits (if its led doesn't lit up at the back, it's too far or too close). Just make sure you check this again if you change the iris/lamp mode setting. Or make sure that iris closed / low lamp is bright enough, and iris open / high lamp is not too bright.


Also remember to warm up the PJ for 30mn at least before calibrating, and at least 15mn after a lamp mode change (from high to low or vice-versa). The bulb drifts otherwise and your calibration won't be accurate.
 

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Look at the graphic after you click on the spyder/meter button. The meter on the screen should be within the limits (if its led doesn't lit up at the back, it's too far or too close). Just make sure you check this again if you change the iris/lamp mode setting. Or make sure that iris closed / low lamp is bright enough, and iris open / high lamp is not too bright.


Also remember to warm up the PJ for 30mn at least before calibrating, and at least 15mn after a lamp mode change (from high to low or vice-versa). The bulb drifts otherwise and your calibration won't be accurate.
Good tips.Thanks.
 

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Complete workflow?

Manni,

First of all, thanks for your insights and tips. And thanks to Harry and others that have contributed to this thread.

I am creating a word document - that currently is just copy n' paste of Harry's and some of Manni's posts.

One thing that I am confused on is how would one go about calibrating a custom color profile, temp, & gamma? Does it require separate passes for each? I understand that for low/high lamp, Iris settings, CMD settings, etc. you need to do "per slot" cals.

So say I've uploaded a custom profile (per Manni's instructions) and now want to calibrate that profile along with temp and gamma. How is that done? Based upon notes I've read it isn't possible in one pass. You cal the custom CP, then select a "standard" CP and then a custom "numerical" gamma and then you can cal temp and gamma?

Just got my Spyder 4 Pro today, tonight Friday, once my boy is bed I will attempt to test all this out and try to create the work flow steps. I do this so that in future I can just follow the steps and help minimize any mistakes and once satisfied I will publish it via Google Docs so that the community can maintain it.
 
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