AVS Forum banner

81 - 100 of 4669 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #81 ·
Awesome. Thanks.

To use 709F one should be in THX mode? Or is there another way to engage the filter?
The filter will be engaged if you select rec-709F in any of the preset which allow you to select custom colour profiles, so definitely all the user modes (user1, user2, etc or whatever you have renamed them to).

It's the colour profile that triggers the filter, not the user mode. THX calls the filter because it uses a color profiles defined as using the filter. I don't think it allows to call a custom colour profile.

In other words, when you create the custom color profile in the JVC software, if you specify the filter during the creation of the filter, the filter will be called whenever that colour profile is in use, so during the Autocal as well. So all my "F" colour profiles engage the filter, all my "NF" colour profiles don't.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,890 Posts
The filter will be engaged if you select rec-709F in any of the preset which allow you to select custom colour profiles, so definitely all the user modes (user1, user2, etc or whatever you have renamed them to).

It's the colour profile that triggers the filter, not the user mode. THX calls the filter because it uses a color profiles defined as using the filter. I don't think it allows to call a custom colour profile.

In other words, when you create the custom color profile in the JVC software, if you specify the filter during the creation of the filter, the filter will be called whenever that colour profile is in use, so during the Autocal as well. So all my "F" colour profiles engage the filter, all my "NF" colour profiles don't.

Thanks and ostensibly I could use these custom presets even without a meter -- just load them via the autocal software -- right?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #83 ·
Thanks and ostensibly I could use these custom presets even without a meter -- just load them via the autocal software -- right?

Correct, although all the custom profiles I shared deliver a much better linearity if you autocal them with the JVC software once you have imported them in the projector. At least that's what I noticed for rec-709 and DCI-P3, I didn't have a chance to do much testing with the rec2020 profiles.


Still, you can use them without a meter. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,890 Posts
Good, thanks. Because the old meters that are for sale appear to be just the dregs, used, and or overpriced. And the new Spyder isn't supported, yet. So I'm in a holding pattern.

(Unless someone in the SF Bay Area wants to loan me their Spyder 4 for a day..... or I'll supply beer and pizza for entertainment, if they don't want to let it out of their site.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,127 Posts
It won't hurt - provided they are set correctly - but as far as I can see all settings are ignored during a calibration. For example, if you set 100% white to D65 before an autocal, better do it again after because your gains corrections are likely way too strong (autocal corrects all the presets, so the corrections should be much less afterwards, which can lead to a brightness gain). Also make sure you check both 6500K and 7000K after an autocal, depending on the calibration, one can give you more brightness/contrast that the other when setting the gains to D65.

I keep my brightness/contrast before an autocal and only check they are still correct afterwards. Usually, the autocal won't affect these.
Excellent guide. Can you clarify which settings we need to check on the projector itself before autocrat? It seems that Clearblack, eshift, etc. Should be off, but don't follow your comments above.
or
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #86 ·
It won't hurt - provided they are set correctly - but as far as I can see all settings are ignored during a calibration. For example, if you set 100% white to D65 before an autocal, better do it again after because your gains corrections are likely way too strong (autocal corrects all the presets, so the corrections should be much less afterwards, which can lead to a brightness gain). Also make sure you check both 6500K and 7000K after an autocal, depending on the calibration, one can give you more brightness/contrast that the other when setting the gains to D65.

I keep my brightness/contrast before an autocal and only check they are still correct afterwards. Usually, the autocal won't affect these.
Excellent guide. Can you clarify which settings we need to check on the projector itself before autocrat? It seems that Clearblack, eshift, etc. Should be off, but don't follow your comments above.
or
I was talking about calibration settings. It's up to you if you want to calibrate with eshift on or off. I wouldn't calibrate with clear black on, but if you always use it, I don't think it would be detrimental, as it doesn't impact black levels or low APL patterns but gives more apparent sharpness and contrast to the picture. I don't think clear black has much effect on patterns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,127 Posts
Lamp Power and 3D

Hello,
Thank you for the great info. I have 3 questions:


1) You have indicated to repeat the color calibration for each CMD/IRIS combo that I want to use. How about Lamp Power? If I calibrated on Low Lamp for IRIS 0, 5, 10, with CMD LOW and OFF, do I now have to calibrate on High Lamp for those same settings?

2) I do enjoy 3D. Are these profiles that I have created applicable to 3D image modes (other than the effect of the glasses of course).

3) For custom color profiles: Lets say that I want custom 709, p3, and 2020 profiles. Do I need to perform a gamma/gamut/color calibration one each of Standard/Natural/Reference modes, or is it good enough that I have performed a gamma/gamut/color calibration on Standard?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #88 ·
Hello,
Thank you for the great info. I have 3 questions:


1) You have indicated to repeat the color calibration for each CMD/IRIS combo that I want to use. How about Lamp Power? If I calibrated on Low Lamp for IRIS 0, 5, 10, with CMD LOW and OFF, do I now have to calibrate on High Lamp for those same settings?

2) I do enjoy 3D. Are these profiles that I have created applicable to 3D image modes (other than the effect of the glasses of course).

3) For custom color profiles: Lets say that I want custom 709, p3, and 2020 profiles. Do I need to perform a gamma/gamut/color calibration one each of Standard/Natural/Reference modes, or is it good enough that I have performed a gamma/gamut/color calibration on Standard?

1) Yes
2) Yes, but you will have to calibrate a preset specifically for 3D. If you use a standard preset, a 3D preset is switched to automatically, so you could select at least a custom color temp for that, or you could assign a new user preset for 3D and calibrate it. With 3D, I only select my rec-709NF colour profile set 100% white to D65, I don't do anything else.
3) As per the step-by-step, you only need to do gamma once. They you do color with a standard colour profile at each of the iris setting, lamp mode, CMD setting you want to use, and last you run a colour autocal once for each custom color profile. As rec-709, consumer P3 and rec-2020 all use D65 for the white point (unlike cinema DCI), there shouldn't be a reason for separate greyscale calibration, but I haven't tested this extensively yet. It didn't seem to be necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,127 Posts
1) Yes
2) Yes, but you will have to calibrate a preset specifically for 3D. If you use a standard preset, a 3D preset is switched to automatically, so you could select at least a custom color temp for that, or you could assign a new user preset for 3D and calibrate it. With 3D, I only select my rec-709NF colour profile set 100% white to D65, I don't do anything else.
3) As per the step-by-step, you only need to do gamma once. They you do color with a standard colour profile at each of the iris setting, lamp mode, CMD setting you want to use, and last you run a colour autocal once for each custom color profile. As rec-709, consumer P3 and rec-2020 all use D65 for the white point (unlike cinema DCI), there shouldn't be a reason for separate greyscale calibration, but I haven't tested this extensively yet. It didn't seem to be necessary.
Thanks. I think my confusion is with your use of the term "standard". I think when you say "Standard", you mean any "preset" color profile, rather than the specific STANDARD color profile. I would like to clarify the following :

1) select any preset color profile (Standard, Natural, or Reference)

2) run a gamma, color, gamut calibration for a wide open Iris, high power, and cmd off, for your selected preset color profile.

3) run a color calibration for all other desired Iris, power, and cmd combinations for your selected preset color profile.

4) for each additional preset color profile you want calibrated, run a color only calibration for a single Iris, power, and cmd combination.

5) for each custom profile you want calibrated, run a color only calibration for a single Iris, power, and cmd combination.

Did I get this right ?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #90 ·
Thanks. I think my confusion is with your use of the term "standard". I think when you say "Standard", you mean any "preset" color profile, rather than the specific STANDARD color profile. I would like to clarify the following :

1) select any preset color profile (Standard, Natural, or Reference)

2) run a gamma, color, gamut calibration for a wide open Iris, high power, and cmd off, for your selected preset color profile.

3) run a color calibration for all other desired Iris, power, and cmd combinations for your selected preset color profile.

4) for each additional preset color profile you want calibrated, run a color only calibration for a single Iris, power, and cmd combination.

5) for each custom profile you want calibrated, run a color only calibration for a single Iris, power, and cmd combination.

Did I get this right ?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Sounds about right :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,127 Posts
Sounds about right :)
I have been doing some thinking. I am wondering if there is a problem with relying on gamma and gamut from a calibration of the Standard Color profile as a basis for calibrating a custom color profile intended to cover P3 or 2020 (using your profiles of the same name).

Specifically:

Doesn't the use of the filter impact Gamut and Gamma? If so, wouldn't I have to somehow tie the color calibration (using your P3 color profile for example) to a baseline gamma/gamut calibration of Natural or Reference (rather than Standard)? IF so, wouldn't that mean I would have to do a complete calibration for 2 color profile presets rather than just 1?

I notice that there is a "Reference Filter" option on the calibrate page of the JVC calibration program. The JVC manual is not clear what that is intended to cover.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #92 ·
I have been doing some thinking. I am wondering if there is a problem with relying on gamma and gamut from a calibration of the Standard Color profile as a basis for calibrating a custom color profile intended to cover P3 or 2020 (using your profiles of the same name).

Specifically:

Doesn't the use of the filter impact Gamut and Gamma? If so, wouldn't I have to somehow tie the color calibration (using your P3 color profile for example) to a baseline gamma/gamut calibration of Natural or Reference (rather than Standard)? IF so, wouldn't that mean I would have to do a complete calibration for 2 color profile presets rather than just 1?

I notice that there is a "Reference Filter" option on the calibrate page of the JVC calibration program. The JVC manual is not clear what that is intended to cover.
Why don't you try and let us know? :)

As I said in my earlier post, I haven't had the time to do extensive tests with P3 and rec2020 on the unit I evaluated, and my X500 (RS49) doesn't have a filter so there isn't much I can do.

I thought the reference profile was using rec2020 saturations (and the cinema2, which also engages the filter, P3 saturations) based on my quick measurements, but Kris Deering has measured it to be very close to P3, so I guess we'll need more data to be sure. I don't have a new model at hand right now so others - like yourself - will have to contribute.

The PQ gamma curve is the gamma D preset, but I wasn't able to measure it as I didn't have the patterns to do so. It should be calibrated along with the gamma autocal.

In theory, if you select reference (or cinema2) and gamma D after an Autocal (or a user preset using a rec2020 or P3 custom profile using the filter), you should simply have to calibrate 100% white to D65 and you'd be set. Whether you have to calibrate all the iris ranges etc in this mode, I'm not sure. It's possible.

I've done my bit I think, now it's over to you guys, at least until I get one of the new models :).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,004 Posts
1) Yes
2) Yes, but you will have to calibrate a preset specifically for 3D. If you use a standard preset, a 3D preset is switched to automatically, so you could select at least a custom color temp for that, or you could assign a new user preset for 3D and calibrate it. With 3D, I only select my rec-709NF colour profile set 100% white to D65, I don't do anything else.
3) As per the step-by-step, you only need to do gamma once. They you do color with a standard colour profile at each of the iris setting, lamp mode, CMD setting you want to use, and last you run a colour autocal once for each custom color profile. As rec-709, consumer P3 and rec-2020 all use D65 for the white point (unlike cinema DCI), there shouldn't be a reason for separate greyscale calibration, but I haven't tested this extensively yet. It didn't seem to be necessary.
I'm not certain why there is talk of a calibration for 2020 color gamut in that the JVC RS500/600 supports a max. color gamut of DCI-P3. The "consumer" P3 is consistent with DCI (digital cinema) standard since that DCI standard references SMPTE ST-428-1 which allows for multiple color temperatures as options (if my memory on this is correct), including 6500K. It appears most UHD Blu-rays will use DCI-P3 with 6500K, but conveyed within a Rec. 2020 "envelope", but it's still DCI-P3 color gamut that needs to be displayed.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #94 · (Edited)
I'm not certain why there is talk of a calibration for 2020 color gamut in that the JVC RS500/600 supports a max. color gamut of DCI-P3. The "consumer" P3 is consistent with DCI (digital cinema) standard since that DCI standard references SMPTE ST-428-1 which allows for multiple color temperatures as options (if my memory on this is correct), including 6500K. It appears most UHD Blu-rays will use DCI-P3 with 6500K, but conveyed within a Rec. 2020 "envelope", but it's still DCI-P3 color gamut that needs to be displayed.
Hi Ron,

That used to be my position in 2015 :)

Unfortunately there is no agreement between experts at the moment regarding HDR calibration. I participated in and even started a few threads on the subject, and the opinions are widely opposed. I'm not talking about experienced calibrators and relatively well informed people like you or me. I'm talking about calibration experts like sspears (Stacey Spears) or Sotti (Joel Barsotti) from Spectracal, Tom Huffman from Chromapure, Grgill (Graeme Gill) from Argyll CMS, reviewers quoting companies like Technicolor, people from these companies posting anonymously, and Madshi, the author of MadVR etc.

At the moment, it's just the wild west. Everyone agrees that rec2020 is only a container and that most content today is graded on P3 capable monitors - although this is going to change over the next couple of years - but while some say that we should calibrate to P3 as most of the content is actually P3, some say that P3 isn't even part of the specs and should be ignored, and that we should calibrate to rec2020, so that the saturations used are those of the container, because even if the content doesn't go wider than P3, it was mastered to rec2020 saturations. Grading monitors having a rec-2020 emulation mode (using rec2020 saturations) even when they are limited to P3 or close to P3, it's hard to know who's right and who is wrong until we see actual content.

Honestly, given the lack of clarity and consensus, I've given up for now and I stepped out of that ring as it's mostly pointless at the moment. I'll revisit when sources and content are there in a couple of months and when hopefully all these experts reach an agreement (which doesn't mean that 2015 displays like the new JVCs will be doing it right). The fact that there is no standard defined for HDR10 consumer playback (unlike for Dolby Vision) makes the discussion even more difficult, but that's another issue. The fact that we don't know if Dolby Vision will even be able to support projectors due to the many variables (screen size, throw, iris and lamp mode settings, etc) mean that it's not as easy as waiting for next year's models.

When there is an agreement between experts and/or when I or someone trusted is able to check how the Autocal behaves and how the new JVC models behave with actual HDR content, I'll update this thread.

As I don't want the HDR calibration discussion to derail this thread, please look at these threads and feel free to ask any questions there in the meantime:

HDR10 calibration for the new JVC projectors: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=5859
Generic HDR calibration: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2130474-hdr-calibration-discussion.html
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,057 Posts
Discussion Starter · #96 ·
@Manni
Sorry for maybe asking a silly question but I am quite new to the topc of projector calibration. Can you calibrate with Calman and fittinh meter and 'play' this outcome just into the X5000, X7000 or X9000 or do you always need in that case something like a Lumagen in between?
Hi Westmd,

There are no silly questions, but I'm not sure I understand yours.

However you certainly don't need something like a Lumagen in between to use the JVC Autocal.

You should maybe read the first few posts and the links in the first post, especially the one about the difference between using the JVC Autocal and using a Radiance/eecolor, it might give you a better idea.

If you're starting in calibration I'm not sure the JVC Autocal is for you. You might want to start with a guide like Tom Huffman's guide to color calibration, or Kal's calibration for dummies (we all started with these) and then decide if a standard calibration package might be a good idea (it's certainly simpler to use than the JVC Autocal).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,142 Posts
If anyone is looking for a Spyder 4 Pro for their JVC autocal (since it's difficult to find as its discontinued), I've posted one in the classifieds: SOLD

I'm moving on from JVC since the units have a perceptible flicker that I can't unsee.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,351 Posts
Hi Ron,

That used to be my position in 2015 :)

Unfortunately there is no agreement between experts at the moment regarding HDR calibration. I participated in and even started a few threads on the subject, and the opinions are widely opposed. I'm not talking about experienced calibrators and relatively well informed people like you or me. I'm talking about calibration experts like sspears (Stacey Spears) or Sotti (Joel Barsotti) from Spectracal, Tom Huffman from Chromapure, Grgill (Graeme Gill) from Argyll CMS, reviewers quoting companies like Technicolor, people from these companies posting anonymously, and Madshi, the author of MadVR etc.

At the moment, it's just the wild west. Everyone agrees that rec2020 is only a container and that most content today is graded on P3 capable monitors - although this is going to change over the next couple of years - but while some say that we should calibrate to P3 as most of the content is actually P3, some say that P3 isn't even part of the specs and should be ignored, and that we should calibrate to rec2020, so that the saturations used are those of the container, because even if the content doesn't go wider than P3, it was mastered to rec2020 saturations. Grading monitors having a rec-2020 emulation mode (using rec2020 saturations) even when they are limited to P3 or close to P3, it's hard to know who's right and who is wrong until we see actual content.

Honestly, given the lack of clarity and consensus, I've given up for now and I stepped out of that ring as it's mostly pointless at the moment. I'll revisit when sources and content are there in a couple of months and when hopefully all these experts reach an agreement (which doesn't mean that 2015 displays like the new JVCs will be doing it right). The fact that there is no standard defined for HDR10 consumer playback (unlike for Dolby Vision) makes the discussion even more difficult, but that's another issue. The fact that we don't know if Dolby Vision will even be able to support projectors due to the many variables (screen size, throw, iris and lamp mode settings, etc) mean that it's not as easy as waiting for next year's models.

When there is an agreement between experts and/or when I or someone trusted is able to check how the Autocal behaves and how the new JVC models behave with actual HDR content, I'll update this thread.

As I don't want the HDR calibration discussion to derail this thread, please look at these threads and feel free to ask any questions there in the meantime:

HDR10 calibration for the new JVC projectors: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=5859
Generic HDR calibration: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2130474-hdr-calibration-discussion.html
Just wanted to say that was a very informative snapshot of where things seem to stand right now. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,712 Posts
...
I'm moving on from JVC since the units have a perceptible flicker that I can't unsee.
I've not heard of this before, ever. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I haven't heard of it. Did you find out if you had a defective unit? A bad lamp?

Or, are you talking about the DI? Are you seeing it pump? I wouldn't describe that as a flicker, though, so you must be seeing something else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,142 Posts
I've not heard of this before, ever. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I haven't heard of it. Did you find out if you had a defective unit? A bad lamp?

Or, are you talking about the DI? Are you seeing it pump? I wouldn't describe that as a flicker, though, so you must be seeing something else.
I owned a RS4910 for ~2 years and briefly owned two RS500 units, each of these three units exhibited the flicker issue -- the RS500 flicker was actually more severe than the RS4910 perhaps due to the native contrast delta. In my case, I can see this in real content and I get an occasional uncomfortable physical reaction to the flicker. My wife and other friends can also clearly see the flicker but hadn't ever bothered them.

Short version is that I tried multiple lamps on the RS4910, high lamp, had disabled all processing/DI/etc, I could even see it on the blue no input screen with no HDMI input (although more subtle). Even isolated the unit running off UPS battery once to disprove dirty house power as a source.

I sent the RS4910 into Mendtronix twice and each time they reported that while they could perceive the flicker that JVC said it was normal. I took a chance on the RS500 since the sales literature sheet at CEDIA specifically said "flicker free" (it didn't specifically say if they were referring to 3D or not).

It is easiest to see the flicker if you display a 75% or 100% IRE white field test pattern, just take a look and see if it looks solid white or if you see flicker. If you see flicker but it doesn't physically affect you, then this artifact is probably outweighed by the otherwise great image for you.

I do not see this flicker in my Mits HC7900DW DLP projector nor the Sony 600 & 40 that I demoed at my local dealer (240Hz vs 120Hz panels may be the reason?), so I've proved to myself that its not an inherent artifact of front projection or LCoS.

@Wizziwig has also observed this kind of flicker -- one other data point on the forum at least :)
 
81 - 100 of 4669 Posts
Top