AVS Forum banner

1901 - 1920 of 4389 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,081 Posts
It's a parameter in Arve's tool.
i'm guessing Arve's tool is linked at the beginning of this thread ? side thought , I take it its a slim chance JVC will offer any further firmware upgrades to the 2015/2016 projectors ie option to disable auto gamma D or any type of auto HDR feature set ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
i'm guessing Arve's tool is linked at the beginning of this thread ? side thought , I take it its a slim chance JVC will offer any further firmware upgrades to the 2015/2016 projectors ie option to disable auto gamma D or any type of auto HDR feature set ?
You are probably correct there. It was discussed earlier in the thread, but JVC only have a history of "fixing issues" in firmware, not introducing new features.
As there is a new series, there is little likelihood of JVC doing much with regard to firmware with the 2015/2016 series.
That is why Arve's tool has been welcomed as "The Saviour". Without it we would be been stuck with Gamma D and HDR would have been a lost cause for us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,936 Posts
Arve's tool is awesome and I use it with the speed guide (links in my sig) but the real breakthrough began when Manni figured out how to load a custom curve using the JVC autocal tool. It took longer, and had fewer control points and options, but with effort and time, it achieved 90% of the Arve tool.

Either way, between the two of them, they have taken what was an untenable situation with HDR and given us a lot of life out of these projectors, which is AWESOME -- because while JVC has provided a good default HDR curve in the next generation, our generation was /is apparently never going to get that fix, even though it truly is a bug or broken versus just about every other commercial HDR offering out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
Arve's tool is awesome and I use it with the speed guide (links in my sig) but the real breakthrough began when Manni figured out how to load a custom curve using the JVC autocal tool. It took longer, and had fewer control points and options, but with effort and time, it achieved 90% of the Arve tool.

Either way, between the two of them, they have taken what was an untenable situation with HDR and given us a lot of life out of these projectors, which is AWESOME -- because while JVC has provided a good default HDR curve in the next generation, our generation was /is apparently never going to get that fix, even though it truly is a bug or broken versus just about every other commercial HDR offering out there.
Thanks Nathan. You are correct. Manni's work certainly pioneered the way, and we wouldn't be where we are without his efforts. I'm not sure whether Arve was already developing his python app independently at the time. Bit of a "chicken and egg" scenario. Using the AutoCal software was a stroke of genius on both their parts, and actually reflects poorly on JVC for not doing something similar for their own product.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,838 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,906 (Edited)
The spyder 5 does not measure peak luminance.
You will need one of these for that:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005A0ETXY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Or spend more for better. But it does the job for me.
You can't use the Spyder 5 with the JVC Autocal to get peak luminance, but you can can use it with another calibration software supporting it (HCFR, ArgyllCMS, Calman, Chromapure, Lightspace) to get a good approximation of peakY. A light meter will be more precise if it's a good one, such as the Minolta T10. Others will also vary in accuracy. If it's only to evaluate peakY, I would use the Spyder 5 aiming at the screen (to take gain into account) with a free (or paid ofr if you already have one) software.

You are probably correct there. It was discussed earlier in the thread, but JVC only have a history of "fixing issues" in firmware, not introducing new features.
As there is a new series, there is little likelihood of JVC doing much with regard to firmware with the 2015/2016 series.
That is why Arve's tool has been welcomed as "The Saviour". Without it we would be been stuck with Gamma D and HDR would have been a lost cause for us.
Arve's tool is awesome and I use it with the speed guide (links in my sig) but the real breakthrough began when Manni figured out how to load a custom curve using the JVC autocal tool. It took longer, and had fewer control points and options, but with effort and time, it achieved 90% of the Arve tool.

Either way, between the two of them, they have taken what was an untenable situation with HDR and given us a lot of life out of these projectors, which is AWESOME -- because while JVC has provided a good default HDR curve in the next generation, our generation was /is apparently never going to get that fix, even though it truly is a bug or broken versus just about every other commercial HDR offering out there.
Thanks Nathan. You are correct. Manni's work certainly pioneered the way, and we wouldn't be where we are without his efforts. I'm not sure whether Arve was already developing his python app independently at the time. Bit of a "chicken and egg" scenario. Using the AutoCal software was a stroke of genius on both their parts, and actually reflects poorly on JVC for not doing something similar for their own product.
Thanks guys, it's only has a limited interest but for the record here is the history (as I remember it!):

- I had been bugging Spectracal to give us HDR suppport for projectors for a long time, but nothing was coming as there was no standard for the EOTF for projectors, so we were stuck with SDR BT2020 using the Integral, at least with the Pana UB900, as Gamma D had too many limitations.
- A Calman user called @mkoper posted a really good idea to use a multiplier in Calman to be able to display the measurements in a meaningful way. He was using meter profiling to do this, which was complex and had limitations. @Chad B and I started picking up on his idea at about the same time. This was in the Spectracal forums http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=6122
- I came up with the idea of using the screen multiplier instead of profiling. This made things much simpler and both Chad B and myself obtained very good results with manual HDR calibrations.
- I started sharing a few of my custom gamma calibrations using the export feature of the JVC Autocal in the owners's thread, to allow others users with a similar set-up to get better results than with Gamma D. At the time it took around 30 minute for each manual calibration, which made it difficult to issue calibrations for others than those with a similar set-up as mine.
- @arve saw this early work and posted about his tool in the owners thread. I downloaded it and immediately saw the potential, as it allowed to achieve in a few minutes what took 30 minutes manually. Plus it offered lots of options that a manual calibration didn't offer, as well as a better resolution (33 point instead of 21), which makes a difference to shape the main control points of the curve accurately. I am convinced that Arve had already started developping his tool a while ago, but we just didn't know about it. Otherwise we wouldn't have wasted hundreds of hours doing manual calibrations! Arve has since developped his tool further and has implemented many suggestions offered here. I stopped doing manual HDR calibrations (except for verification and fine-tuning purposes) as soon as I first used Arve's tool, and suggested right away that people use it to create their own curves instead of downloading mine. It was really a game changer. I and others posted parameters for their curves, and I exported a few using the JVC Autocal to share with the community, as it was now easier and faster to create curves that would work well in different set-ups. I created and shared a Dolby Vision Emulation curve using the same peakY as Dolby Cinema (106nits) so that those who didn't want to create their own custom curve, or who had a similar peakY, could get accurate results by setting peakY close to 106nits and using that curve.
- We were left with two main limitations: JVC forced Gamma D whenever HDR content was detected, which meant we had to reselect our custom gamma curve every time we pressed play or resume, and the dynamic iris was disabled when playing HDR. @stanger89 and I had the same idea at about the same time: what if the HD Fury Integral could fool the JVC into thinking it was still receiving SDR? I explained the issue to @HDfury (I beta test for them), asked them to develop a solution, and helped them to implement it in the Linker (it wasn't possible in the Integral due to hardware limitations). In just a few days, they delivered the option to disable HDR in the linker in order to fool the projector into thinking it was getting SDR, so that we could keep our custom Gamma at all time and enable the dynamic iris in HDR if we wanted to. That gave us BETTER than the new models, as they still can't use the DI with HDR content, even if their implementation of HDR is better out of the box than Gamma D (but not better than a custom gamma curve).
- I had to go back to work so I left it to others to pick up the mantle and explain how it all worked to newcomers.
- @lovingdvd (Ric), who had a limited peak brightness (under 50nits) but was determined to get HDR in his set-up rather than SDR BT2020, came up with a quick guide to use the auto set-up feature of Arve's tool which really helped those with similar low brightness or those who wanted a more automated way to end up with a good curve.
- All along, others such as @Wookii, @zombie10k, @stanger89, @Javs, @nathan_h, @claw and others posted screenshots, parameters, advice, guides helping to share the knowledge and progress the research and development.

All the relevant links, including download to Arve's tool, were added to the first post of this thread.

This community effort happened very quickly (mostly in the owners thread starting here), over a few weeks, but it gave our models the ability to display as good or better HDR than more recent models, giving them a second lease of life. I certainly put many hours into this because I had been looking for better than gamma D HDR for a long time (like others I had been using SDR BT2020 up to that point), but I'm convinced that @arve would have posted about his tool at some point or the other, and that users like @stanger89 would have come up with the idea of using the Integral to get rid of Gamma D and get the DI back. We were all figuring it out at the same time and feedback from others helped a lot. It was really a joint effort. So I might have contributed to make it happen a bit faster and to share the fruits of this effort, but I don't think I have invented anything (unlike @arve who has created a wonderful piece of software and is generously sharing it with others).

To me it illustrates the great things (well, it sure is a first world problem, but you know what I mean) we can accomplish with a community like this. I learnt most of what I know about projectors and calibration in this forum from current and past users, so I'm happy to be able to give something back to the community when I can. That makes up (partially) for the time when I annoy everyone. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
221 Posts
You can't use the Spyder 5 with the JVC Autocal to get peak luminance, but you can can use it with another calibration software supporting it (HCFR, ArgyllCMS, Calman, Chromapure, Lightspace) to get a good approximation of peakY. A light meter will be more precise if it's a good one, such as the Minolta T10. Others will also vary in accuracy. If it's only to evaluate peakY, I would use the Spyder 5 aiming at the screen (to take gain into account) with a free (or paid ofr if you already have one) software.

To me it illustrates the great things (well, it sure is a first world problem, but you know what I mean) we can accomplish with a community like this. I learnt most of what I know about projectors and calibration in this forum from current and past users, so I'm happy to be able to give something back to the community when I can. That makes up (partially) for the time when I annoy everyone. :)
Thanks Manni, I wasn't aware the Spyder had a bit more potential.

Your contribution to this forum, ( along with a select group of others ) makes it probably the preeminent source of information in the world for AV enthusiasts. I for one greatly appreciate your work and that of your compatriots.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,130 Posts
If it's only to evaluate peakY, I would use the Spyder 5 aiming at the screen (to take gain into account) with a free (or paid ofr if you already have one) software.
FWIW, when pointing at the screen, you don't need to account for gain, what comes off the screen is the "real" brightness that you see. If you use an illuminance meter, like the cheap Dr Meter some of us have, or the Spur Scientific Craig (or was it Mike?) found, then you need to multiply that by gain, because those measure the light falling onto the screen, not the light coming off.

Great summary of the HDR calibration journey BTW :cool:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
577 Posts
Arve's tool is awesome and I use it with the speed guide (links in my sig) but the real breakthrough began when Manni figured out how to load a custom curve using the JVC autocal tool. It took longer, and had fewer control points and options, but with effort and time, it achieved 90% of the Arve tool.

Either way, between the two of them, they have taken what was an untenable situation with HDR and given us a lot of life out of these projectors, which is AWESOME -- because while JVC has provided a good default HDR curve in the next generation, our generation was /is apparently never going to get that fix, even though it truly is a bug or broken versus just about every other commercial HDR offering out there.
Hey Nathan, i assume when you are talking about using AutoCal to load custom curves, you are downloading curves from this or the rs600 thread and trying those? I am a beginner, but every curve i downloaded (even ones upload by lovingdvd titled "Bright") were to dim for me. Is there another way i should be using autocal? Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,936 Posts
Hey Nathan, i assume when you are talking about using AutoCal to load custom curves, you are downloading curves from this or the rs600 thread and trying those? I am a beginner, but every curve i downloaded (even ones upload by lovingdvd titled "Bright") were to dim for me. Is there another way i should be using autocal? Thanks!
Yeah, there is a pre-made curve that Manni posted called "Dolby Vision" or something similar. You can use the auto-cal software to upload that one. That shouldn't be too dim, even on large screens, if you can get up to 100 nits in peak output (for me, that means running in high lamp mode, with the iris fully open).

That said, it is almost as easy, and even more effective, to use the Arve tool and the process linked in my sig, the speed guide, to get a custom curve for any projector. I find that this is the closest to perfection, requires ZERO measuring, though you do need to have a suitable bright scene from a UHD disc on hand to set the contrast parameter and you do need to buy the test patterns (masciola) to set the black point, accurately, by eye.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,838 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,911
FWIW, when pointing at the screen, you don't need to account for gain, what comes off the screen is the "real" brightness that you see.
Yes, that's precisely why I suggested to use the Spyder 5 pointing at the screen when measuring PeakY, so that the screen gain is taken into account.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
With CalMAN Spyder support how to optimize

Just about to receive my Spyder 5 Pro today so I can get an optimum gamma on my RS500 projector. I plan to follow the procedure to use the JVC calibration software for this. Given that I have CalMAN Enthusiast, ColorMunki Photo and i1Display OEM and Lumagen Pro, I'd like to know a few things.

How can I determine with my setup how well the Spyder is performing (relative to gamma, etc.)? And if it's not "in the ballpark" of decent results, do I return it to the seller or Datacolor? Should I ever consider using the Spyder in lieu of the i1Display (profiling the Spyder against the ColorMunki)?

Net: as always, trying to get the most from my video system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,081 Posts
Yeah, there is a pre-made curve that Manni posted called "Dolby Vision" or something similar. You can use the auto-cal software to upload that one. That shouldn't be too dim, even on large screens, if you can get up to 100 nits in peak output (for me, that means running in high lamp mode, with the iris fully open).

That said, it is almost as easy, and even more effective, to use the Arve tool and the process linked in my sig, the speed guide, to get a custom curve for any projector. I find that this is the closest to perfection, requires ZERO measuring, though you do need to have a suitable bright scene from a UHD disc on hand to set the contrast parameter and you do need to buy the test patterns (masciola) to set the black point, accurately, by eye.
thanks for this post as its been very helpful , I know repetitive questions probably get eye rolls here lol with that said is Arve's tool linked at the beginning of this thread ? I have found that for most titles that are around 1000 nit the image is too dark or crushed with the curves provided here , though my screen is only 109" 2.35, I thought about editing the curve in text to brighten it but I'm not sure what values to adjust , oddly the V2 curve posted back in April works perfectly for 4000 nit titles on my screen and i guess I'm trying to figure out why that is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,866 Posts
Just about to receive my Spyder 5 Pro today so I can get an optimum gamma on my RS500 projector. I plan to follow the procedure to use the JVC calibration software for this. Given that I have CalMAN Enthusiast, ColorMunki Photo and i1Display OEM and Lumagen Pro, I'd like to know a few things.

How can I determine with my setup how well the Spyder is performing (relative to gamma, etc.)? And if it's not "in the ballpark" of decent results, do I return it to the seller or Datacolor?
You can use CalMAN to verify performance of the projector after running the JVC AutoCal. If necessary, you can use the verification results to correct the Spyder 5 errors by creating a custom profile. Both Chad B and Manni have posted their ways of doing that.

Should I ever consider using the Spyder in lieu of the i1Display (profiling the Spyder against the ColorMunki)?
I would use i1Display Pro; I don't think CalMAN even supports Spyder5.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,838 Posts
Discussion Starter #1,917
I would use i1Display Pro; I don't think CalMAN even supports Spyder5.
The latest beta of Calman 2017 does finally support the Spyder 5, after intense lobbying :)

I tested it and it works great, but my Spyder 5 unit was just as bad as the four units I tested before it, so I stayed with my golden Spyder 4 once more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
You can use CalMAN to verify performance of the projector after running the JVC AutoCal. If necessary, you can use the verification results to correct the Spyder 5 errors by creating a custom profile. Both Chad B and Manni have posted their ways of doing that.


I would use i1Display Pro; I don't think CalMAN even supports Spyder5.
So are the "verification results" shown in JVC AutoCal, or in running CalMAN?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
The latest beta of Calman 2017 does finally support the Spyder 5, after intense lobbying :)

I tested it and it works great, but my Spyder 5 unit was just as bad as the four units I tested before it, so I stayed with my golden Spyder 4 once more.
Was your testing of the two Spyder colorimeters done strictly within CalMAN? I'm trying to make effective use of the Spyder 5 in the JVC calibration, and know if it's a dud or not, and if so, how best to deal with that. Getting it from B&H today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,866 Posts
So are the "verification results" shown in JVC AutoCal, or in running CalMAN?
To verify the accuracy of the Spyder 5, you would have to use another (trustworthy) meter. Which also means another app, as JVC AutoCal V7 only supports Spyder.
 
1901 - 1920 of 4389 Posts
Top