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Epson has always been on the bargain price of things so I could see them waiting a while.

Craig, did Epson say much about the LS? Some have speculated the sales are poor on those and wonder what their plans are for the long term with them.
 

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I discussed this with JVC yesterday. Maybe we will see a laser eshift projector in a couple of years.
Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.

1) Clever JVC: they provide a f/w update for all their clients owning a 2015+ model solving EVERYTHING that can be solved by f/w (ST2084 curve, HDR bright/HDR color, DI enabled in HDR, etc). All this can ALREADY be done on these models with third party software/not so expensive bit of hardware. No one in their right mind is going to update just for these "features", which are simply fixes for stuff that was broken or not enabled for no good reasons. They won't lose any customers doing this. Those who want to upgrade because they want the low lag in game mode, or because they like the new eshift-5, will still do. But what they will achieve doing this is REWARD their EXISTING customers. Many of these not only buy PJs, they also advise their friends to do so. Then next year, they release a NEW range with laser. Almost everyone will upgrade to these, because that will be a real upgrade, especially if the resale value of their existing model has not plummeted, thanks to the f/w fix. And they won't be afraid to do so with a first gen chassis because they will think that JVC will support their products, and will fix what needs to be fixed. Otherwise some will wait to see what the bugs are, and won't buy until the bugs that matter are fixed.

2) Dumb JVC: they don't provide the f/w mentioned above for existing models, they keep alienating their customers who won't upgrade anyway as they can see there is no significant upgrade. They don't release a PROPER upgrade next year, which is either laser or native 4K, and don't stop the exodus that is going to start this year with many flocking to the appeal of "native 4K" vs "better on/off". This will especially be the case if the new lens on the new Sony model resolves closer to 4K on the screen. I can see where that would end (and I don't hope it will).

My take is that what's new on the Sony side of the street isn't new technology (except possibly with the new lens) but a dramatic cut in prices (MSRP in EU and street price in the US, let's forget about the SURE price travesty). This is what's going to hurt JVC hard this year, and I hope they will be ready for laser under 10K next year (I doubt 4K under 10K with enough on/off will happen).

So if you're talking to JVC and if they listen, I would tell them to show good will, treat their existing customer with respect, invest a bit of time in getting these f/w out, and put this laser model on the fast track. If they release another eshift model with bulb without a laser at least as the flagship, I think they'll regret it. There are not enough people understanding the difference between the two technologies to resist the appeal of "native 4K" with just e-shift. A couple of years will be too late. It's next year or they'll be in real trouble, especially if Sony keeps undercutting them on price with "native 4K".

Just to give an example of what I call good product support: I've bought an X7200WA 18 months ago (once it had the HDMI 2.0a fitted in factory, some bought the X7200W a few months earlier because it had an upgrade path to HDMI 2.0a). In 18 months dozens of minor bugs have been fixed, they provided a layout compatible with all three immersive audio formats, they fixed a bug that prevented playing a track with any upmixer, and a few months before its end of (shelf) life next Spring, three years later, they are going to offer a f/w enabling Dolby Vision pass through. I don't care about this personally because I plan to sell it immediately afterwards, but it will really help its resale value. Which means it makes it easier for me to sell it and buy a new model. This is clever customer support. I will buy the replacement without any hesitation (provided it has HDMI 2.1 out of the box or a full hardware upgrade path to it). I know, when I buy it, that anything that doesn't work on it will be fixed (if technically possible) up until the very end of life of the unit. That gives me three years of peace, knowing I'll be able to get the best technology. Okay, they only do this for so long on the flagship, but to me it's worth the price difference with the lower model, which will only be supported for a year. D&M don't have the same customer support as Lumagen or HD Fury, who are very close to their users, keep implementing new features based on user feedback, fix things even years after the end of life of a product. They can do that because they are smaller. But as a main CE manufacturer, D&M got this right.

JVC would be inspired to change the way they treat their customers, especially regarding the midrange and flagship models. They should support these much better, even if that means hiring a couple more people in their projector software team (I know it's a very small team, they are probably stretched, I'm certainly not blaming them but that shouldn't be the problem of the customer).

These products are expensive toys. They are not throw away gadgets (at least not to me). I think expecting support over the life of the warranty cover (which happens to be the amount of time between upgrades for me anyway) is not unreasonable. So I would expect 3 years of proper support, and I'd like to see what can be fixed with a f/w update to be fixed over that period of time. It's a win-win if JVC sees this as an investment in customer satisfaction/loyalty, rather than simply as an expense.

I strongly believe that JVC would sell MORE, not LESS if they did this, but I have little hope to see this happen. :)

Agreed. They really need to move to online updates via Ethernet or USB.

When talking with their lead engineer from here in the US, he stated that this update required patching into somewhere else on the projector (not the RS-232 on the back) for the update, which is why it was done in house. He said that depending on what is being updated on a projector, the procedure is different. He also confirmed again that last year's models did require a new motherboard compared to the models before.
Yes, that already happened a while ago (I forgot for which part of the f/w and on which models, but I think it was HDMI related). In the UK, dealers were allowed to do the upgrade because they had the special kit used to update that specific chip. In the U.S. it was a return to base. Looks like the same issue.
 

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+1 Manni, I said it by before that JVC need to take care of its customers. Even though I do not need them to do it for me since I have everything except eshift 5, but they need to show support for their customers who spent thousands of dollars to buy their product. At least the CMD fix is coming, which is a hassle sending it in though.
 

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Wait, wait, wait...

:confused: They plan to still be making 1080p e-shift projectors in a couple of years? :confused:
I have no idea - they don't discuss plans for the future with me or anyone else. But it's possible, and Epson too indicated eshift for the foreseeable future. After all, BenQ, Optoma, Vivitek all have " 4K " chips that seem to work well enough for lots of folks, that aren't native 4K.
 

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Epson has always been on the bargain price of things so I could see them waiting a while.

Craig, did Epson say much about the LS? Some have speculated the sales are poor on those and wonder what their plans are for the long term with them.
Not really - they did say no native 4K until chip prices come down. That's all they said.
 

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Thanks for the feedback. Can you please elaborate on the "new advanced replacement program"? Also how are they planning to fix CMD since it required a new chip apparently?

Thanks
You send the projector in and JVC corrects the CMD problem.
 

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Both of these have been addressed already, I don't know if you missed it because it's in the other thread (these threads really need to be merged)....



It's like Epson now, you have the option of JVC shipping you a replacement instead of sending your machine in for repair.

I don't know what it is exactly, some have said it's not a new chip, but it's a warranty repair, you send your machine in and it gets whatever is needed to fix CMD.

Can I throw out a conspiracy theory (Craig/Mike/Kris)....

I don't suppose the "repair" for CMD on the x20 line is a new motherboard (with CMD chip) from the x40 line is it? And if so, would that mean a repaired x20 machine would then have the x40 software (HDR modes, DI, etc)?
No it is not. All of the current to be shipped RS420/520/620 projectors have been corrected for CMD and motherboards were not replaced.
 

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Just a thought, have you confirmed with certainty you do not have gamma droop on the JVC? They all do it and it meeds to be corrected.
That could be a little part of it as I've put 1,000 hours on lamp since ChadB calibrated it but the bright scenes have hardly ever had that "pop" effect that I see on DLP. I need to get my Eye One Display 3 recalibrated and then check it out to see if I need to touch up gamma.

Thanks for suggestion.

I'm loving it. I forgot how good it can be to have a lampless projector. It's my third DPI projector and they throw a great picture. Crazy how you can get these high end DPI projectors on eBay for $1000.
You got lucky finding that one. I look on there regularly and never come across one anywhere near that price. I see there is one in the classifieds here but it's $4k and has a lens I can't use and the lens I need is $2k. You be sure and let me know if you ever want to sell that one or see another one for sale for around same price.

Thanks guys,
Mike
 

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Put me in the eshift+laser camp. I'd personally much rather have laser before native 4k. I was hoping to see a laser eshift model this year, but sounds like we are still 1-2 years away which is fine as the RS540 will be great for me until then. :cool:

Better product support as Manni suggests above would be fantastic as well. As mentioned, these aren't cheap throw away toys, or at least they shouldnt be.
 

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It's not unreasonable to have a firmware update that might brick the unit if done in the field. Especially considering their procedure for updates is a bit long in the tooth.
This update is performed internally. So, much greater risk if done wrong and you would have to take the projector apart to even do the work, so no way this can be done by an end user.
 

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how long does it usually take to send in a projector to JVC and get it back?
 

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Not to start an argument about the number of people that use CMD but if they incur enough expense because of this it might finally provide enough incentive to improve their capabilities in this area.
I am sure a different update procedure is in the works and I expect it to be in the next model that requires a new housing design. just like they have for the RS4500. Updates for the 4500 are done by USB, same as the Sony projectors.
 

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Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.

1) Clever JVC: they provide a f/w update for all their clients owning a 2015+ model solving EVERYTHING that can be solved by f/w (ST2084 curve, HDR bright/HDR color, DI enabled in HDR, etc). All this can ALREADY be done on these models with third party software/not so expensive bit of hardware. No one in their right mind is going to upgrade just for these "features", which are simply fixes for stuff that was broken or not enabled for no good reasons. They won't lose any customers doing this. Those who want to upgrade because they want the low lag in game mode or care about the CMD fix, or because they like the new e-shift-5, will still do. But what they will achieve doing this is REWARD their EXISTING customers. Many of these not only buy PJs, they also advise their friends to do so. Then next year, they release a NEW range with laser. Almost everyone will upgrade to these, because that will be a real upgrade, especially if the resale value of their existing model has not plummeted, thanks to the f/w fix. And they won't be afraid to do so with a first gen chassis because they will think that JVC will support their products, and will fix what needs to be fixed. Otherwise some will wait to see what the bugs are, and won't buy until the bugs that matter are fixed.

2) Dumb JVC: they don't provide the f/w mentioned above for existing models, they keep alienating their customers who won't upgrade anyway as they can see there is no significant upgrade (unless they are gamers or care about CMD). They don't release a PROPER upgrade next year, which is either laser or native 4K, and don't stop the exodus that is going to start this year with many flocking to the appeal of "native 4K" vs "better on/off". This will especially be the case if the new lens on the new Sony model resolve closer to 4K on the screen. I can see where that would end (and I don't hope it will).

My take is that what's new on the Sony side of the street isn't new technology but a dramatic cut in prices (MSRP in EU and street price in the US, let's forget about the SURE price travesty). This is what's going to hurt JVC hard this year, and I hope they will be ready for laser under 10K next year (I doubt 4K under 10K with enough on/off will happen next year, or even in 2 years).

So if you're talking to JVC and if they listen, I would tell them to show good will, treat their existing customer with respect, invest a bit of time in getting these f/w out, and put this laser model on the fast track. If they release another eshift model with bulb without a laser at least as the flagship, I think they'll regret it. There are not enough people understanding the difference between the two technologies to resist the appeal of "native 4K" with just e-shift. A couple of years will be too late. It's next year or they'll be in real trouble, especially if Sony keeps undercutting them on price with "native 4K".

Just to give an example of what I call good product support: I've bought an X7200WA 18 months ago (once it had the HDMI 2.0a fitted in factory, some bought the X7200W a few months earlier because it had an upgrade path to HDMI 2.0a). In 18 months dozens of minor bugs have been fixed, they provided DTS:X support, they provided a layout compatible with all three immersive audio formats, they fixed a bug that prevented playing a track with any upmixer, and a few months before its end of (shelf) life next Spring, three years later, they are going to offer a f/w enabling Dolby Vision pass through. I don't care about DV support personally because I plan to sell my X7200WA immediately afterward, but it will really help its resale value. Which means it makes it easier for me to sell it and buy a new model. This is clever customer support. I will buy the replacement without any hesitation (provided it has HDMI 2.1 out of the box or a full hardware upgrade path to it). I know, when I buy it, that anything that does work on it will be fixed (if technically possible) up until the very end of life of the unit. That gives me three years of peace, knowing I'll be able to get the best technology. Okay, they only do this for so long on the flagship, but to me it's worth the price difference with the lower model, which will only be supported for a year. D&M don't have the same customer support as Lumagen or HD Fury, who are very close to their users, keep implementing new features based on user feedback, fix things even years after the end of life of a product. They can do that because they are smaller. But as a main CE manufacturer, D&M got this right. I didn't feel stupid over the 3 years for having bought the flagship. I felt like it was kept up to date, as much as technically possible, and I didn't feel like more recent and cheaper models had superseded it.

JVC would be inspired to change the way they treat their customers, especially regarding the midrange and flagship models. They should support these much better, even if that means hiring a couple more people in their projector software team (I know it's a very small team, they are probably stretched, I'm certainly not blaming them but that shouldn't be the problem of the customer).

These products are expensive toys. They are not throw away gadgets (at least not to me). I think expecting support over the life of the warranty cover (which happens to be the amount of time between upgrades for me anyway) is not unreasonable. So I would expect 3 years of proper support, and I'd like to see what can be fixed with a f/w update to be fixed over that period of time. It's a win-win if JVC sees this as an investment in customer satisfaction/loyalty, rather than simply as an expense.

I strongly believe that JVC would sell MORE, not LESS if they did this, but I have little hope to see this happen. :)



Yes, that already happened a while ago (I forgot for which part of the f/w and on which models, but I think it was HDMI related). In the UK, dealers were allowed to do the upgrade because they had the special kit used to update that specific chip. In the U.S. it was a return to base. Looks like the same issue. I agree they need to move to IP/USB update, but I'm not sure it would solve it in this specific case, as they need to update the f/w of a specific chipset/board, rather than the main/sub f/w of the PJ itself, so it's a different (internal) connection.
JVC's policy has always been: Firmware updates to fix things, never to add features. With the 400/500/600 projectors being two generations back, I doubt anything will be done to them. It is not like they installed a broken version of HDR, since HDR standards were not even set when those projectors came out. Nobody else at that time even came close compared to JVC, for HDR on a projector.
 

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Thanks. Here is my take on this. I think JVC should really consider these two options very carefully.
Agree 100% and in my opinion... customers like Manni should get a free projector for their wonderful contributions.

Also, they should improve bridges/prices/customer support/availability for international customers with their chosen foreign sellers.

Thank you and keep up the good work JVC
 

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how long does it usually take to send in a projector to JVC and get it back?
I assume they'd use Mendtronixs for this update/fix? If so, I started a thread on their service awhile back. I'll see if I can find and add it to this post. I would plan on 3 weeks from your house and back. This is based on my experience....but they have a couple of different repair centers, so could be a week less or a week more (this is assuming they don't have a large inventory of repairs).

If it is Mendtronixs....make sure you specify you want them to reuse the JVC packing/box you sent the projector in ...otherwise, they will toss the box and use their own box/packing, which is no where near the quality of the JVC box.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1842417-mendtronix-repair-parts-lamps-center-reviews-feedback.html
 

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JVC's policy has always been: Firmware updates to fix things, never to add features. With the 400/500/600 projectors being two generations back, I doubt anything will be done to them. It is not like they installed a broken version of HDR, since HDR standards were not even set when those projectors came out. Nobody else at that time even came close compared to JVC, for HDR on a projector.
I've never asked about new features. I've asked for fixes. Gamma D was broken. The DI was disabled in HDR for no good reason. I don't blame them for not releasing a proper HDR mode before UHD Bluray was released and have already said so in earlier posts. I just regret the way they are passing f/w fixes as "new features". Come on, I uploaded the BT2020-F and BT2020-NF colour profiles for the 2015 models more than a year ago, before they even released their identical BT2020 profile. And now they are trying to sell as "new features" the ability to choose between HDR "bright" and HDR "color"?

I personally don't care about any of this, I do all this already with my rs500 and my HD Fury Linker/Vertex, but it's not because it's their policy that it's the right policy.

Gamma D should have been fixed (they didn't implement it properly, even with their new f/w that used 4000nits instead of 10000nits). The DI shouldn't have been disabled in HDR. It's fine to have that option. Both of these should have been fixed on the 2015+ models, or JVC should have communicated and explained why it wasn't technically possible, which would be very difficult to do because it IS technically possible, we are doing it!

I am a fan of JVC and I like their products, I will still buy them if I prefer them to those of the competition, but I don't like the way they treat their customers.

I have been burnt a few times, and now I simply don't buy a JVC projector if it doesn't do what I want and if I can't try my specific unit before I buy. This means that I wait sometimes a year, sometimes more, before buying one of their products, because I have zero confidence in their will to fix problems. I wish I could trust their product support so that it provides fixes. I would buy earlier, and probably more often.

It's not because it's their policy that they can't change it for a better policy, especially when as far as Gamma D they didn't follow their policy (the black crush/raise black floor with Gamma D is a bug, not a feature, and it's an easy one to fix). :)
 

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That could be a little part of it as I've put 1,000 hours on lamp since ChadB calibrated it but the bright scenes have hardly ever had that "pop" effect that I see on DLP. I need to get my Eye One Display 3 recalibrated and then check it out to see if I need to touch up gamma.

Thanks for suggestion.



You got lucky finding that one. I look on there regularly and never come across one anywhere near that price. I see there is one in the classifieds here but it's $4k and has a lens I can't use and the lens I need is $2k. You be sure and let me know if you ever want to sell that one or see another one for sale for around same price.

Thanks guys,
Mike
I had a DPI HC 260 that I bought for $900, which looks almost identical image wise except with 2000 lumens. I'll try to contact the person I sold it to. Nothing like having a high end DLP and LCOS combo.
 
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