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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,


I seem to have come to the conclusion that I want to purchase a JVC G15, but I am VERY confused about a few things:


1. What do I need to get a 16:9 image on the screen?? I want to watch DVD's, and I am hoping the image would fill and entire 16:9 screen with no letterboxing??


2. I also want to play videogames.. Can I switch between aspect ratios until I have a 4:3 image???


3. What would be the best prossecor for this projector? I read the bigpicture review of the G15, and read about problems with one???


4. AND MOST importantly, I have 20 feet of distance from lens to screen, what is the LARGEST (16:9 and 4:3) screen size I can achieve??


Please forgive me for being stupid, I have just recently started getting into projectors, I saw the Sony VW11HT ad in Sound and Vision, and the thought of having a HUGE SCREEN has completely taken over my mind!!!


Thanks for listening!!


[This message has been edited by King Rygar (edited 09-28-2001).]
 

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1. Assuming no anamorphic lens, the native panel is 4:3, so it will be letterboxed within the panel, but the 16:9 image will fill the 16:9 screen. Different aspect ratios will be letter boxed on a 16:9 screen, however.


2. Yes, the G15 has 4:3/16:9 switch in the menu. I'm not into video games, so this may be a matter of differing values, but I would have to seriously consider if games were worth the (roughly) $0.80/hr bulb cost.


3. Maybe others could chime in here. Currently I'm not using a processor, only a progressive scan DVD player. I may go to a processor someday if I become interested in other sources that would need one.


4. Mine is at 18' and produces a max 100" wide image. At 20' you could probably get it up to about 110". There is no difference in width between 16:9/4:3, just height (unless you pillar box the 4:3 into the 16:9 screen as I do).


-Ted-
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks!!!!


What are the benefits of an anamorphic lens?? Would the screen be wider??? Would DVD's with different aspect ratios sometimes be letterboxed?? (i.e. 2.35/vs. 1.81 or whatever http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


I am wondering if their is a projector out there similar to this one in regards to price and performance, with these features built in???

 

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Panamorph squishes the 4:3 image into 16:9 (width will be the same but height will be shorter) using entire panel for more resolution, smoother imaging, less screendoor, and brighter picture. It has lots of shipping problems howerver search for Panamorph and you'd see. Those that use it love it. It's going for $1K or more (retail 2K).


Isco stretches the 4:3 image to make 16:9 (width will be wider and height will be same)--model I was the first lens, cheaper, does not stretch as well as Model II; model II is more expensive, more accurate ratios, more brightness, and has less distortion. Model I can be had for 1K used and 2K for model II new. Those that have this lens love it also but I think the consensus is Panamorph may be slightly better.


As far as comparable model I'd look at the newest 16:9 DLP over 10K, light cannons LCD or DLP, or the 3 chip DLP to compare. I don't have a DILA but from reading its specs and all the raves, I'd bet you'd be happy with a DILA.


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Huey ;-]
 

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Yes, what Huey said, and...


The projector does have a built in scaler that will do the job, but this is digital. The anamorphic lenses do an optical compression (or expansion), thus making better use of the projectors pixels... pushing more pixels into a given space, thus increasing all kinds of things like resolution, brightness, contract, and minor distortions.


DVDs come in many different ratios, some are more popular than others. With a fixed size screen you will always have pillarbox or letterbox at some point, there is no way around this... unless you crop the image. You can also go with screens with variable masking that will adjust to the different ratios, but I would suggest getting your feet wet first before you go off in that direction.


Also, the G15 has much better control of scaling, cropping, and positioning through the serial port than through the menu. There is a product called Dilard which will connect to that port and handle all of this. I use it and could not imagine using the projector without it, the menu is just too limited in my opinion.


-Ted-
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks Huey and Ted,


Ok, after reading your responses, I am now almost tempted NOT to purchase the G15, even though something inside me tells me I'll regret it....


Buying a "Hard to Get" panamorph lens on top of the DVD player, Speakers, and Processor I wanted, goes WAAAAY way past the 10k-12k I am willing to spend.... (that includes cables, DVD's to watch, Room mods, and Beer..)


Hell, I couldn't sell my truck and even afford just the projector!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif The $700 bulb for the G15 didn't bother me, heck, the one for the Sony VW11HT is $500, even though they last longer....


I want the image quality of the D-ILA, but I want my screen filled, and 110 inches isn't quite what I had in mind... More like 130-150 inches at least. I know I may have set my expectations to high for this price range, but you gotta have standards right???


What do you guys suggest from this point??? I don't want anything the has Rainbows, Screen Door, Dead Friggin pixels, 10 lenses, and a bulb contract to boot!!!


So what do I do?? Huey, you mentioned the DLP projectors over 10K, could you be referring maybe to the Seleco HT300...


Would it be wise for me to just wait for that???


I am feeling my way through the dark here guys, and I very much appreciate all your suggestions and help...


But damned be, the craving for a projector gets stronger and stronger everyday, and I can't even decide what I want!!!


I just wish I could go somewhere and see a JVC G15 with the lens and such, then maybe I could justify the pain!!!!


Hope to hear more from yall!!


King Rygar
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by King Rygar:


Ok, after reading your responses, I am now almost tempted NOT to purchase the G15, even though something inside me tells me I'll regret it....


Buying a "Hard to Get" panamorph lens on top of the DVD player, Speakers, and Processor I wanted, goes WAAAAY way past the 10k-12k I am willing to spend....


I don't want anything the has Rainbows, Screen Door, Dead Friggin pixels, 10 lenses, and a bulb contract to boot!!!


King Rygar
King,

Welcome to the world of Front projection. Hold on tight, this is going to be a bumpy ride! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Don't get too caught up in the number of tweaks available for the D-ILA projectors. Things like HTPC, panamorph, scalers are all really nice additions but are absolutely NOT required to enjoy your D-ILA.


I've had my G11 for almost a year now, and I'm still just using a progressive scan DVD and DTC-100 HDTV receiver. No tweaks, no calibrations, no special lenses. Not even DILARD (yet) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


When it comes to issues like screen door and rainbows, the D-ILA technology is far above DLP and LCD at eliminating these. Although I have seen a few postings about dead pixels (there was a thread about this specifically a week or so ago), it seems that they are fairly rare.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The projector is the largest single investment of equipment in my theatre. It looks great out of the box. I'm only happy to find that there are ways to make it look better and better.



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DVI/HDCP makes your HDTV not ready


[This message has been edited by jhill32 (edited 09-29-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by King Rygar:
Buying a "Hard to Get" panamorph lens...
You don't need a panamorph lense, especially with the G15. The G15 is already quite bright and has practically no screen door. A panamorph will certainly make it a whole lot better, but, the G15 is great to begin with.

Quote:
...WAAAAY way past the 10k-12k I am willing to spend....
Yup, I got mine for $9,500 back in August, and that price would eat just about your entire budget. However, I purchased mine new, you might be able to find quality B-stock at a lesser price.

Quote:
I want the image quality of the D-ILA, but I want my screen filled, and 110 inches isn't quite what I had in mind... More like 130-150 inches at least. I know I may have set my expectations to high for this price range...
Well, the max image size has nothing to do with the price range. It is a function of the projectors distance from the screen and the focal length of the lense. A contributing factor is the projectors light output, since, the larger you make image the fewer lumens you'll have per square inch. If your image size is being limited by the distance of your back wall from the screen, then, you'll have this problem no matter what you pay for a projector (depending on the projectors lens). If, on the other hand, the image is too dim once you HAVE reached the desired size, then you can start blaming the projector.


JVC has a S15U model which has a center aligned, fixed focal length lens of 1:1 which is designed mostly for rear projection. It is inflexible due to the lack of zoom, and the fact that the center of the lens must be aligned with the center of the screen, but will throw a 150" diagonal image at a distance of around 10'.

Quote:
I don't want anything the has Rainbows, Screen Door, Dead Friggin pixels, 10 lenses, and a bulb contract to boot!!!
Your probably going to have to accept certain compromises. It really depends on your budget. Dead pixels are a reality of most technologies. Sometimes you're lucky and get a perfect unit, other times you might get one with a dead pixel or two. Different manufacturers have different standards for dead pixels, like how many and where they are on the screen. Also, the more dense the pixels per screen square inch the less you will notice them. My G15 has 2, there on the left edge. I can not see them at normal viewing distance, I had to be about 4' from the screen running a white background test pattern.

Quote:
Would it be wise for me to just wait for that???
Waiting can't hurt, and certainly will save you money. I did reach a point where I felt that I was waiting for perfection, and that in that mode I'd be waiting for the rest of my life. I finally settled on the G15 and am quite happy with it. From there I am able to asses where I would benefit from incremental upgrades. Until you own a projector your going mostly on what people are saying, lacking in personal experience. Once you get used to a piece of equipment you get a feel for what you would change. But, the question remains what to pick as a starting point.


I can tell you one thing for sure, with the rate that technology moves, we will all be sitting here waiting for and talking about the next best technology for a long time to come... every time someone delivers some new technology we will already be all over its limitations, and be waiting for the next best thing... the cycle never ends.


-Ted-


[This message has been edited by tlum (edited 09-29-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks Don O and Ted-


That cleared quite a few things up for me!!! I am now starting to put things together here, but regretfully I must inform you your responses brought up some new questions I want to ask yall!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


1. What is the "Chromabug"


2. The projector must be aligned with the center of the screen??? The beams of light would be going through my head! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif My ceiling height is only 8feet, 4feet off the ground sounds low to me??? Is there any way around that with a scaler??


3. With an external device like the quadscan, could I run devices such as the old Nintendo (with S-Video out mod), Super Nes (Svideo), and expect a "decent" image in 4:3??? What would the Quadscan do to an image source such as those I just mentioned ??? ( All S-Video capable mind ye.)


Thanks again guys for helping me out....


Finding this forum has been a miracle, without it, who knows, I'd have gone after an RPTV, and missed all that heavenly glory!!!


King Rygar-
 

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King,

the chroma bug is essentially a malfunction of the MPEG decoder built into the DVD players. Go here to find the real story.


With a ceiling mounted projector, the mid-point of the lens is mounted at the same height as the top of the screen. It is understood that the projector is mounted in the middle of the screen with respect to horizontal (side to side) axis, and that the lens face is parallel to the screen. No lens at the height of your head!!



I am unsure of the ability to run these gaming machines through the quadscan, but they should work if they put out a standard 480i NTSC signal. The only thing I would be worried about, is potential loss of synch.



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Don O
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks Dan O,


Indeed I once owned a player that had that same problem so bad, I thought my RPTV was broken and had a technician even come out!!! I think he screwed up my focus and stuff, I watched him though, and opened it back up after he left and fixed it, but my RPTV had green trails behind moving whites ever after!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Anyways, I have one more question about aspect ratios...


Let's say I wanted to watch an "Anamorphic 1.85:1" DVD, and I had say a 150 inch diagonal 16:9 screen (with the Quadscan), would the screen be filled? Or will a 2.35:1 Anamorphic DVD fill it... I am just wondering which one will fill the entire wide image, without black bars top and bottom..


Also, does the G15 produce a widescreen, theater like image at all out of the box??? I just a scaler needed or a lens?? I am confused!! I am guessing that if I had a 140" diagonal (Wide-theater like http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif that if I was watching a anamorphic DVD, it would fill the wide image, and if I switched to 4:3 for my computer it would just shrink of cut of the sides making it a perfect square in the center of the screen..


Please forgive my idiocy!!!
 

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Hi King,

any projected letterboxed or anamorphic disk will produce a full width image. With 1.85 material on a 1.778 screen you will have a small area of screen without image below and above the screen (about 3%+) With 2.35:1 you will lose approximately 33% of the 16:9 image area. For instance with a 150inch diagonal, 130 inch width 16:9 screen you will have an image height of 55 inches with 2.35:1 material, and 73 inches with 1.78:1 material, and 70.3 inches with 1.85 material. Because so many disks are 2.35:1 many people like the idea of a 2.35:1 screen for constant height, and variable width with vertical masking panels.


Cheers.


PS The D-ILA does have a 16:9 switch on the video inputs to restore the correct geometry of 16:9 enhanced (anamorphic) software. Component, Svid, composite.


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Don O
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Cool!


So I could connect just a good progressive DVD player without the chromabug http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif , directly into the G15 and select 16:9, and it will fill the screen!! Then all I have to do for like computer games is switch to that input , set at 4:3 and it will be the same height except the sides are cut? I hope I am right http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif This stuff is making me so excited!!! I want one RIGHT NOW!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Thanks again!
 

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Sorry, I threw some confusion in there. JVC has three versions of the 15U, a G15, a S15, and a M15. The G15, which is the most common, which we have been speaking about is "edge aligned". As pointed out previously, when ceiling mounted, the top of the image will be aligned with the center of the lens. The S15U I spoke about is "center aligned". While it has a shorter throw (will produce a larger image closer to the screen), the center of it's lens would be aligned with the center of the screen. Sorry for the confusion.


And no, you can not just flip the 4:3/16:9 switch in the menu and get the affect that you describe. All the menu switch does is control the compression. It will not cause the projector to pillar box the 4:3 image, you will need to use the zoom and probably the position to orient the image as well.


Heres the deal, I'll use my actual setup as an example. My projector is ceiling mounted, the center line of the lens hangs 10" below the ceiling. The top of my screen also sits 10" below the ceiling. At 18' distance from the screen the projected image is 100" wide and 75" tall. That area represents the entire 1365x1024 panel in the projector. My screen, however, is only 50" tall, so 25" of the image shoots below the bottom of the screen. This is not a problem because wide screen DVD images do not use the entire panel, so I would use a vertical shift to place the bottom of the displayed image at the bottom of the screen.


When you switch to a 4:3 source, suddenly the entire panel is in use, including the 25" below my screen. At this point I use the G15 optical zoom to orient the bottom of the image at the bottom of the screen (the top does not move), which also has the effect of reducing the width proportionately.


If you have the height you can use a taller screen, but I don't have it. Basically I maintain a 50" height across all aspects and allow the width to vary. You can use an external scaler to play these games so that you never touch the projector, but you'll suffer degradation in the image. Your much better off zooming the image optically that zooming digitally.


Also, each input has a memory. Component (from the DVD) can be set up for the 16:9 and composite (from the game) can be set up for the 4:3. As you switch the source it will remember the settings. You will, however, have to operate the zoom manually, the G15 does not have zoom memory.


-Ted-



[This message has been edited by tlum (edited 09-29-2001).]
 

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King Rygar,

If the lens is 20ft away from the screen, you should be able to achieve a screen width of about 126", resulting in a 144.5 " diagonal 16:9 screen. The 4:3 image "pillarboxed" inside the 16:9 screen would be about 71" high and 94" wide, resulting in a 118 inch diagonal.


I would suggest that you read through the D-ILA FAQ about mating a 16:9 screen with a 4:3 projector. The most important thing to understand is that the image shifts vertically as you zoom the lens in and out to go from a 16:9 to a 4:3 picture. There are many solutions to deal with this:

1) Scalers (with an image shift capability)

2) Dilard software to modify these source resolutions, producing images that are always top justified.

3) HTPCs

4) Use a 4:3 screen and avoid the issue completely

5) Use an anamorphic adapter

6) Be content to zoom and manually tilt the projector when going from 4:3 to 16:9 and back.


It is not necessary for you to purchase everything at once, but you will have some expenses that are mandatory.


Minimum:

1) Get the projector calibrated professionally or purchase the calibration software/sensor combo that Dilard offers.


2)Buy a progressive scan DVD player with AR control, like the the panny rp91. You get DVDA to boot. Or purchase a used/Bstock Quadscan scaler (this will allow fixation of the image vertically to the top or bottom of the screen for all scaled material) and an inexpensive DVD player without the chroma bug.

The only problem is that when you want to feed HDTV to the D-ILA, the image will not be vertically fixed on the screen. The 16:9 image will be mapped to the 1365*768 pixels in the middle of the screen.


If your budget is fixed, I would suggest you evaluate the new sharp XVZ9000. As the panels are native 16:9 and will not deal with any of the geometry mismatch issues.




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Don O
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Wow Ted,


With your mighty intelligence I think I actually get it!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


I am definitly going to get a G15 now, thanks to you guys!!!


I want to thank Ted, Dan O, and Huey for all your time and thanks for helping me come to a final decision!!!


You are all very wise in the ways!!!!


Have a good weekend!!!!!!!!!!


King Rygar-
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Dear Phil,


Thanks for your reply Phil, every little bit I learn opens up the vision that I am looking for!!!


Now or course you generated some questions for you: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


1. What are all the negatives to adding a ISCO II??


2. Will the ISCO II Do weird things to the normal 4:3 setting I will be using for videogames?


3. Where can I get an ISCO II?? How much usually??


4. What price is Dilard about to go up to??? Of course I have to have it!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


5. How do these lenses attach to the projector??



Thanks again Phil, I love hearing new things about the G15 setup, I'm so glad I finally have come to a conclusion about what stuff I want!!!


Thanks for bearing with a true idiot guys! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


King Rygar


[This message has been edited by King Rygar (edited 09-30-2001).]
 

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King,


If you want a wider image the panamorph will do nothing for you. The ISCO-2 will do a 1.33 width stretch so if you have a 100" wide image without the lens, you will have a 133" wide image with it.


In my own setup, I have a 12'x5', (2.40) screen with an ISCO-2. The projector is only 18' back. I could actually go with a wider screen but my room won't support it.


If you can afford it I would definitely get Dilard. It does so many nice things that you'll wonder how you could have lived without it. To be sure the G11 and G15 look great right out of the box but they can look simply awesome when tweaked to prefection.


If you are going to buy Dilard, get it now before the price goes up, even if you have to wait on the lens.


I think that the nice thing about D-ILA's is that they do look great out of the box with a standard player. Then as time goes by you can add tweaks and better equipment, (HTPC, etc.), that make the picture look better and better.


Hope this helps,

Phil
 

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King,


The Panamorph generates a slight barrel distortion while the ISCO-2 generates a slight pincushion distortion. It really isn't bad especially if you have a black surround on your screen.


Of course with both lenses, the further you are zoomed out the more the distortion will be. I think that the ISCO-2 is better off here since you have to zoom out less to get a wider picture, hence less distortion.


The ISCO-2 will do a 16:9 to your 4:3 screen so you will have to compensate somehow. With an HTPC you could play with the resolution, or with Dilard you could play with the panel resolution. Perhaps someone who is into games could help you more.


I got my ISCO-2 right here at AV Science. They are great guys to work with and I don't think that you will beat their prices. I think that it is the same, if not less than, the Panamorph.


Both lenses are mounted in front of the D-ILA. Mine is in a hush box clamped upside-down. Both lenses should be as close as possible to the D-ILA lens in order to minimize distortion.


I think that you will have a blast geting your G-15 set up. You can make it look better and better with each tweak and addition. It really is an amazing experience. By the way, I started with a G11 and moved up to a G15. Both had no dead pixels so they aren't as are as one might think.


Phil
 
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