[Andrew11]

Hi Everyone,
I know on paper the ANSI contrast is way better for the JVC than this Samsung. I am curious about your subjective opinion about contrast and picture dynamics. JVC is famous about picture dynamics and how the colors pop and feels like more 3D than washed out colors. Some folks told me the Samsungs beats the JVC in that, and even the ANSI contrast numbers are low, when you watch a movie on a Samsung the contrast you « feel » seems better than the JVC. Is this what you experienced as well?
I looked the JVC in the local store and compared with other model (epson 5050) and I could clearly see the the contrast makes a difference, colors pop and the picture has more 3D effect. I did side-by-side comparison with JVC and EPSON LS500 and JVC was clearly better.
I am about to buy my new projector and don’t know which one to pick, JVC or Samsung. I’ll use the projector in our living room, but I’ll only use it at night watching movies and tv series. I would get a 150inch SI Slate 1.2 for JVC (however I don’t know how it will perform with HDR movies) and for Samsung a 130inch UST screen.
Thanks for the help in advanced.

 

[Mike Garrett]

The Samsung has the higher ANSI contrast. The JVC has the higher native contrast. But the native is so low on the Samsung, that you need to use a gray based screen with it to help with the black levels. If you are doing a light controlled dedicated room, I would not use the Samsung. If you are doing a media room, and going to use the projector as a TV, then I would go with the Samsung. These are two completely different machines.

 

[Aztar35]

Hi. I think you meant the on/off contrast because I would expect the ANSI to be better on the Samsung. But the JVC will have much better on/off, yes. I've seen the NX5, LSP9T, and LS500 in action.

I thought the LSP9T looked best on a white screen, but then you give up a more convincing appearance of black. The Sammy is tri-laser and you'll get bright colors all the way up to the particular content's color grading, excellent motion handling, and you won't have to worry about changing bulbs to maintain brightness (which should hold up for many thousands of hours) especially if you're using it as a T.V. You might see rainbow effect and, depending on seating distance, speckle.

The JVC will have more dynamic range and better black levels. The JVC will give you more of a cinematic experience and is full native 4K. The tone mapping firmware goes a long way with HDR. However, for that size gray screen of 150 inches, you will need sufficient brightness. It will light it up in high lamp, but you may want to consider a smaller screen because as the lamp dims, you may be going through lamps sooner than later.

 

[Aztar35]

The Samsung has the higher ANSI contrast. The JVC has the higher native contrast. But the native is so low on the Samsung, that you need to use a gray based screen with it to help with the black levels. If you are doing a light controlled dedicated room, I would not use the Samsung. If you are doing a media room, and going to use the projector as a TV, then I would go with the Samsung. These are two completely different machines.

Mike, it's been a while since I've seen the NX5, but on the specs, it should be able to light that screen up in high, right?

 

[Mike Garrett]

Mike, it's been a while since I've seen the NX5, but on the specs, it should be able to light that screen up in high, right?

Yes, will be able to get around 30/31FL for HDR.

 

[Andrew11]

Thank you for both of you for the explanation! I am not an expert in home theatre, I would like to ask a bit silly question, because something is not clear for me and I don't know what is the missing part that I don't get:
I've read this article about ANSI and On/Off contrast, and it helps me to explain how the two different contrast is measure. They mention dynamic contrast as well, but that's the part I don't follow. For the two projectors (JVC and Samsung), it seems the details are the following:
JVC: better On/Off contrast -> which results deeper blacks
Samsung: better ANSI contrast and better color space -> I would assume that the combination of these two results better dynamic range, however JVC has better dynamic range. Can you help me understand the reason / mechanics behind it?

Let's take one example this scene from 1917:

My understanding is, and please correct me if I am totally wrong here:

• The ANSI contrast, which is measured using the chessboard palette, shows how good the details will be on a darker part of the image relative to the bright part. Which means a projector with higher ANSI contrast will have more details in the trench and the sky will be also more detailed in the picture above. Detailed means here in my context that, you will be see more info in the picture.
• The better On/Off contrast would mean the blacks would be more darker, more closer to a real black than a grey.

So my understanding is this (it seems I am wrong with this understanding):

• If you have better On/Off contrast that means you can have deeper blacks, however doesn't mean you will have more details in the dark areas of the screen above.
• If you have better ANSI contrast that means you can have more details in the picture above, however doesn't mean you have deeper blacks.

Is the dynamic range characteristics of the projector based on the combination of ANSI, On/Off contrast and color range? Or it is only based on ANSI contrast (which was my original thinking).

If I would look at the following picture on a Samsung and JVC what would be the difference in terms of dark scene detail, black level, colors? Assuming I will have an ALR screen for both and I would watch the movie at night in my living room, without any light.

 

[Aztar35]

It can get complicated, but I was going by sequential contrast/on/off so, in general, the JCV NX5 will have more dynamic range in large part due to its black floor. Let's say, hypothetically, that one display measures 228:1 ANSI contrast while the other's ANSI measured 682:1. Those figures are disparate from one another; however, unless you have a fairly optimized room, it may be difficult to notice the improvements the higher ANSI brings. Furthermore, for most content, Average Display Luminance is below the 50% area.

You should really try to get a demo in a room similar to yours. That will give you the best idea. There are also differences in the way each technology displays its images that is difficult to place in words.

 

[Andrew11]

It can get complicated, but I was going by sequential contrast/on/off so, in general, the JCV NX5 will have more dynamic range in large part due to its black floor. Let's say, hypothetically, that one display measures 228:1 ANSI contrast while the other's ANSI measured 682:1. Those figures are disparate from one another; however, unless you have a fairly optimized room, it may be difficult to notice the improvements the higher ANSI brings. Furthermore, for most content, Average Display Luminance is below the 50% area.

You should really try to get a demo in a room similar to yours. That will give you the best idea. There are also differences in the way each technology displays its images that is difficult to place in words.

Thank you! In your example above with the two hypothetical projectors, when you say fairly optimized room, do you refer here to a totally dark theater room? A living room at night, without any lights, would be that much worse? I know the totally black theater room is the best but if you need to score them in a 1 to 10 scale and let's say the dark cave is 10 and the living room at daytime when the sun is directly shines to the screen is 1, where would you put the living room at night with total darkness, and no lights turned on on a 1 to 10 scale? If there is so much difference between a living room setup (even if it is totally dark) and a dark theater cave, maybe I would be better off to just buy the new LG HU810 or XIAOMI 4k 1S and spend more money on a great display?

"... difference in the way each technology displays its images..." <- that's true. It's really hard to understand / judge a projector just by reading the reviews. I'll try to find place where I can see more projectors live. Thank you for the explanation about the different contrasts.

Thank you again for the info, this is very helpful for me.

 

[Drexler]

ANSI contrast has a very subtle effect on the picture. It gives a little more pop in bright scenes, but is also severely negated by any reflections in the room (i.e you need a black pit of a room to take advantage of it). I would not worry about that metric. The on/off contrast sets the black floor and is the all dominating factor in dark scenes. Without good on/off everything will look washed out in dark scenes. Neither ansi nor on/off is determining the amount of shadow detail. That is a calibration thing. It is true that a high on/off projector can make details close to black harder to see, but that is because the details can be rendered much darker. You can always change the calibration (gamma, or black floor) to get more details out if you wish so.

The DLP will look MUCH more washed out in dark scenes. But can have some advantages in bright scenes, maybe feeling a bit more crisp (not due to ansi but rather higher inter pixel contrast giving sharper edges). Some people are not bothered by the black floor and love the crispness of the dlp image in bright scenes and loves its vibrant image on tv, sports etc. Others cant stand the poor dark performance and are taken out of a movie everytime the image gets slightly dark. The preference depends on you. 😉

 

[burnsniper]

I have a NX 7 in a media room/playroom with the entire north wall of the room being windows (and two additional windows facing west). Other than a black (chalk paint) screen wall with in wall speakers (and Atmos speakers and two subwoofers that serve as end tables lol) that go behind a drop down AT screen (over an OLED), the room is more of a living room (white ceiling, cream shag rug, neutral colored drapes, light toned paint, hardwood floors, etc). I am astonished at how much better the NX 7 black levels (we watch in the evening) and contrast are than my old LCD projector. Only downside I can see to the NX 7 is that it is huge and doesn’t really “blend in” to the space the way a smaller projector would. That being said, I would love to put two black acoustic panels right in front of the screen on the ceiling which IMO would substantially improve the picture but WAF...

 

[Aztar35]

Thank you! In your example above with the two hypothetical projectors, when you say fairly optimized room, do you refer here to a totally dark theater room? A living room at night, without any lights, would be that much worse? I know the totally black theater room is the best but if you need to score them in a 1 to 10 scale and let's say the dark cave is 10 and the living room at daytime when the sun is directly shines to the screen is 1, where would you put the living room at night with total darkness, and no lights turned on on a 1 to 10 scale? If there is so much difference between a living room setup (even if it is totally dark) and a dark theater cave, maybe I would be better off to just buy the new LG HU810 or XIAOMI 4k 1S and spend more money on a great display?

"... difference in the way each technology displays its images..." <- that's true. It's really hard to understand / judge a projector just by reading the reviews. I'll try to find place where I can see more projectors live. Thank you for the explanation about the different contrasts.

Thank you again for the info, this is very helpful for me.

A fully optimized room would basically be a black pit with no reflections. But a room close to that could still be considered optimized.

Scoring a living room would be difficult here. Factors like wall color and other reflective surfaces can make a big difference. On darker/low light scenes, the projectors, especially with the black levels of the JVC, will output less light, so you would have less light to reflect. But in general, the more light control, the better the projected image will be.

Conversely, the Samsung tri-laser projecting on a UST screen is made for a living room type of environment.

So, yes, try to find a place for demonstrations.

 

[SaulP]

Andrew: The best advice you’ll get here is to try to spend time viewing both projectors in settings as close to what you expect at home as possible. Comparing these two projectors is like comparing apples and oranges (or maybe apples and pears). They are very different and will perform differently with respect to different metrics. Compared to the Samsung, the JVC is larger and will be more conspicuous in a living room. The JVC has better contrast. The Samsung will be sharper and have a wider color gamut. Depending on your set-up, the Samsung will likely be brighter. The JVC can be fit with an Panamorph (anamorphic) lens; the Samsung cannot.

I’ve owned projectors for almost 20 years. In my main home I currently have BenQ LK990 projector with a Panamorph lens throwing to a 130” cinemascope screen in light-controlled room (but not a dedicated HT). Like the Samsung, the BenQ has less contrast compared to the JVC. But, it is brighter and sharper than the JVC. FWIW: I have never once thought while watching a movie, “These blacks don’t look black enough.” I have thought while watching the re-mastered Lawrence of Arabia, “Wow, I can see Peter O’Toole’s mascara.” In other words, at the end of the day, it’s the overall picture and experience that counts and only you can decide what is best.

BTW: I’m building a second home. For that, I am going to buy a UST projector because I can hide it and the screen in a custom credenza I am building.

I’m sure you’ll love whatever you chose.

 

[Mike Garrett]

Thank you! In your example above with the two hypothetical projectors, when you say fairly optimized room, do you refer here to a totally dark theater room? A living room at night, without any lights, would be that much worse? I know the totally black theater room is the best but if you need to score them in a 1 to 10 scale and let's say the dark cave is 10 and the living room at daytime when the sun is directly shines to the screen is 1, where would you put the living room at night with total darkness, and no lights turned on on a 1 to 10 scale? If there is so much difference between a living room setup (even if it is totally dark) and a dark theater cave, maybe I would be better off to just buy the new LG HU810 or XIAOMI 4k 1S and spend more money on a great display?

"... difference in the way each technology displays its images..." <- that's true. It's really hard to understand / judge a projector just by reading the reviews. I'll try to find place where I can see more projectors live. Thank you for the explanation about the different contrasts.

Thank you again for the info, this is very helpful for me.

With the room you describe, I doubt you would be able to get an actual in room ANSI of 200:1. So I would not give much weight to ANSI differences. Also the ANSI test pattern is 50%. That does not relate well to movies since 50% of all movies have an average ADL below 5%, 80% of all movies have an average ADL of 13% and 90% of all movies have an average ADL below 20%. Here is a good read on the subject: Brightness of movies (ADL) and contrast measurements - ProjectionDream.com.

Keep in mind this article provides a nice pretty graph, but what it does not talk about is the black floor sets what gamma the projector can do. And that effect carries well beyond the 2% crossover that the graph shows. And that is why I would pick a high native contrast projector over a low native contrast/high ANSI contrast projector.

Even in a black pit of a room, it is hard to tell differences in ANSI. This is because as you get more brightness on the screen, that brightness causes your pupils to close down, making projected black look black.

 

[Aztar35]

With the room you describe, I doubt you would be able to get an actual in room ANSI of 200:1. So I would not give much weight to ANSI differences. Also the ANSI test pattern is 50%. That does not relate well to movies since 50% of all movies have an average ADL below 5%, 80% of all movies have an average ADL of 13% and 90% of all movies have an average ADL below 20%. Here is a good read on the subject: Brightness of movies (ADL) and contrast measurements - ProjectionDream.com.

Keep in mind this article provides a nice pretty graph, but what it does not talk about is the black floor sets what gamma the projector can do. And that effect carries well beyond the 2% crossover that the graph shows. And that is why I would pick a high native contrast projector over a low native contrast/high ANSI contrast projector.

Even in a black pit of a room, it is hard to tell differences in ANSI. This is because as you get more brightness on the screen, that brightness causes your pupils to close down, making projected black look black.

Happy Easter, Mike, and to all others who also observe.

So, what about "silhouetting"? That effect is where darker foregrounds like faces against very bright backgrounds look washed out, like a silhouette, with little to no details showing in the faces when compared to the actual screen grab.

Do the lower ANSI machines have silhouetting where the higher ANSI machines do not, or at least have it to a lesser extent?

 

[Andrew11]

Thank you everyone for the help. I have read the article Mike have, it was pretty useful, thank you!

I also heard good things about the new LG 810p and I think for my living room it would be a good fit, even though I will watch movies and TV series at night I might need able to watch sport during daytime if I buy the right ALR screen with it.

The way I was thinking if I would spend 6k, there is no way I would spend it on Samsung and not on a JVC. However because of my setup the LG would be a better choice and I could spend the extra money on better and bigger screen. 150 screen with LG will be better than 130 with Samsung.

I’ll find a place to check out these projectors live before I make the decision but I like the LG so far based from what I read about it in this forum.

 

[markmon1]

Happy Easter, Mike, and to all others who also observe.

So, what about "silhouetting"? That effect is where darker foregrounds like faces against very bright backgrounds look washed out, like a silhouette, with little to no details showing in the faces when compared to the actual screen grab.

Do the lower ANSI machines have silhouetting where the higher ANSI machines do not, or at least have it to a lesser extent?

Do you have any photos of this phenomena?

 

[Aztar35]

Do you have any photos of this phenomena?

No I don't.

 

[Aztar35]

Do you have any photos of this phenomena?

Mark, I found this pic from the movie Lucy, that I posted in a DLP projector thread a few years back to show that notwithstanding the background brightness of the projector on this scene that I could still make out all the details in the foreground image. For whatever reason, my LCos did not present this scene as well, but again it may not be related to ANSI. Could it have been my room? Who knows. Not that the scene looked bad on them, but this scene just looked really good on the DLP.

 

[markmon1]

Mark, I found this pic from the movie Lucy, that I posted in a DLP projector thread a few years back to show that notwithstanding the background brightness of the projector on this scene that I could still make out all the details in the foreground image. For whatever reason, my LCos did not present this scene as well, but again it may not be related to ANSI. Could it have been my room? Who knows. Not that the scene looked bad on them, but this scene just looked really good on the DLP.

View attachment 3119503

Do you know the timestamp on this? I'll test that tonight here.

 

[Aztar35]

I don't, sorry. I think it's either when she is in the lab and begins to merge into the computer or at the end.