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Some LCD's measure mid 400-450:1 ANSI contrast but have lower native ON/OFF (2000-4000:1 without iris?). IIRC there are some DLP's with 600:1 ANSI contrast. So many scene's in movies have mixed brightness levels, appearing not completely dark, nor overly bright. How is it that projectors like the JVC's with low ANSI contrast do so well in terms of being liked vs others with higher ANSI contrast and lower ON/OFF (without iris)? Is it simply that the native ON/OFF affects the picture quality more? Why is this? Lower black levels in darker scenes? High brightness in brighter scenes? Are LCD and DLP projectors with good iris's able to acheive enough full ON/OFF contrast such that their ANSI CR then gives the necessary 'pop' for a given scene?


How do people feel about ANSI contrast ratio's vs full ON/OFF ? What is going on here? Is the jump from 200:1 to 450 and 600:1 ANSI contrast just not enough of a difference compared to the higher ON/OFF of the JVC projectors? I guess we could compare a JVC D-ILA pj with low ANSI contrast to one of the Sony SXRD which has higher ANSI contrast and see how people feel about the image. It would be nice to compare similar technology (LCOS) projectors with different ANSI contrast and see what people think. I also wonder what the ANSI CR of the Mitsubishi SXRD and new reflective LCD Epson's projectors will be.
 

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Ask yourself why CRT's are considered reference quality in many areas but have the worst ANSI CR and then start to question whether ANSI CR matters much. My view is that the DLP pop isn't due to ANSI CR at all. After all, it has only been the last few years that ANSI CR really increased with DLPs but that DLP "pop" terminology has been around a long time. There is reason to believe that DLP's pop has more to do with the edge sharpness (wrong term?) than with ANSI CR.


Also, when dark areas are near bright areas, they almost always look black even if they are much brighter than really black.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans /forum/post/19449234


Ask yourself why CRT's are considered reference quality in many areas but have the worst ANSI CR and then start to question whether ANSI CR matters much. My view is that the DLP pop isn't due to ANSI CR at all. After all, it has only been the last few years that ANSI CR really increased with DLPs but that DLP "pop" terminology has been around a long time. There is reason to believe that DLP's pop has more to do with the edge sharpness (wrong term?) than with ANSI CR.


Also, when dark areas are near bright areas, they almost always look black even if they are much brighter than really black.

The above answer pretty much is right on the money, IMO. I have several projectors set up including a gamma corrected Sony G90 CRT projector, 2 dlps and 2 LCDs. The DLP and LCD projectors have significantly higher ANSI CR, but what you'll notice is the amazing range that the CRT has from complete black all the way up giving the image a very satisfying and smooth appearance that is very comfortable to watch. CRTs' problem is that it does not produce nearly as sharp an image as digital, but that's another story. IMO, ANSI CR's value is way over stressed and full on/off is much, much more important to picture quality - ever suffer through a dark scene with a digital? Only with the best digital projectors are these scenes even tolerable, yet for a properly set up CRT these scenes are a walk in the park!
 

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I know blacks look really black when there is some brightness in the scene but if one looks at a checkerboard ANSI pattern, the black squares look pretty gray.


I left the CRT world a few years and had many CRTs highly modified with all sorts of things including gamma circuits. and gamma means many things including correcting the gamma of the blue tube to make it perform more linearly with respect to to light output as well as overall gamma of the projected image.


Each technology has its benefits but to me in many many ways good digital is better and I am not at all bothered by relatively low on off.
 

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Basically there is no one parameter that determines how good a projector will work. Sure the JVC's have relatively low ANSI, but in about every other regard that excel. So really it is a cumulative process on what parameters determine overall quality.
 

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My advice on things, it is better to trust your eyes than just look at statistics that suggest otherwise. I am a dedicated DLP owner (Brighter for larger screens, cheap), but like most videophiles, a dark scene is not as satisfying to watch as in a CRT for example. I want to get one of the JVC projectors for this case (as well as portability and brightness), but price is the main problem for me.
 

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JVC RS PJ's are the closest you'll get to a CRT or "film-like" picture which is why they have been so popular by so many users over the years since the intro of the RS1.


DLP has a look which you either like or dislike, I used to like DLP until I saw the JVC's. Not that I don't like DLP anymore but for movie watching there is no comparison at any price point and yes I've seen them all to the cream of the crop DLP's. ANSI contrast is all DLP fanboys have to argue over the D-ILA line of PJ's and can claim they have a higher ANSI yada yada yada but in a side by side test and I've done many over the years most of then chose the JVC as having the better picture. It's what one sees on the screen that matters not any number that may or may not mean anything in real world viewing.


The only reason to spend $40,000 or more on a high end DLP is for a bigger picture, one has no choice if he/she needs a big screen, one of my close friends here has one of the best DLP PJ's you can get the Christie HD10K-M which retails for $70,000 and he prefers the RS20's picture over it, but with his 35ft wide screen he had no choice in the matter. He does have an RS20 btw only in a smaller theater in another room projecting on a 12ft wide screen.


All in all ANSI contrast is just a number and doesn't equate to a better picture on the screen. To me DLP and LCD look too digital in comparison to D-ILA and can never go back, I'm only waiting for laser LCOS machines to surface before making any serious jump where PQ will really show off but hey, what do I know, I just say it as I see it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas
JVC RS PJ's are the closest you'll get to a CRT or "film-like" picture which is why they have been so popular by so many users over the years since the intro of the RS1.


DLP has a look which you either like or dislike, I used to like DLP until I saw the JVC's. Not that I don't like DLP anymore but for movie watching there is no comparison at any price point and yes I've seen them all to the cream of the crop DLP's. ANSI contrast is all DLP fanboys have to argue over the D-ILA line of PJ's and can claim they have a higher ANSI yada yada yada but in a side by side test and I've done many over the years most of then chose the JVC as having the better picture. It's what one sees on the screen that matters not any number that may or may not mean anything in real world viewing.


The only reason to spend $40,000 or more on a high end DLP is for a bigger picture, one has no choice if he/she needs a big screen, one of my close friends here has one of the best DLP PJ's you can get the Christie HD10K-M which retails for $70,000 and he prefers the RS20's picture over it, but with his 35ft wide screen he had no choice in the matter. He does have an RS20 btw only in a smaller theater in another room projecting on a 12ft wide screen.


All in all ANSI contrast is just a number and doesn't equate to a better picture on the screen. To me DLP and LCD look too digital in comparison to D-ILA and can never go back, I'm only waiting for laser LCOS machines to surface before making any serious jump where PQ will really show off but hey, what do I know, I just say it as I see it.
That for personal use? Damn, you have an awesome friend! Tell him I like to visit his place.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/19449137


Is it simply that the native ON/OFF affects the picture quality more?

Yes.


ANSI contrast is a worthless measurement as far as I'm concerned.


correction: It's good for marketing purposes only.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/19449964


Yes.


ANSI contrast is a worthless measurement as far as I'm concerned.


correction: It's good for marketing purposes only.

I disagree. If you ignore ANSI contrast then that would mean that a projector in a white walled room would look just as good as a black pit. It doesn't. Although you would still be able to benefit from the lower black level of a higher on/off contrast projector even if the walls were white, but I'd hate to watch such an image myself.


I used ANSI measurements to see which room treatments made the most difference to my picture. It's also clear to see that when I measured 230:1 it looked much better than the bare room which measured 75:1. What I wasn't able to measure was if more ANSI contrast at the projector would make any difference in the untreated room: In theory closing the iris and changing the lamp power to high should have given the same brightness but it should have lower ANSI for the high lamp/closed iris scenario...I guess this was more a limitation of my measurement method/device.
 

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After testing ANSI contrast my conclusions have been unless you make a full magnitude in performance it is likely imperceptible to human vision.


So my conclusions of you thinking 230:1 was noticeable from 75:1 is probably argument of placebo effect.


Now if you said you could tell the difference in picture from 75:1 to 750:1 I might think this is possible.



And of course going from 230:1 you would need to go to 2300:1. So, for some manufacturers to claim there's a significant difference between a 350:1 machine to 800:1 machine is simply marketing and or fanboy hyperbole.


Just my thoughts after testing this with darinp2 and Kris Deering.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk /forum/post/19449520


Basically there is no one parameter that determines how good a projector will work. Sure the JVC's have relatively low ANSI, but in about every other regard that excel. So really it is a cumulative process on what parameters determine overall quality.

Sure there is: the power button. If you press it and it comes on, bingo!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/19450334


After testing ANSI contrast my conclusions have been unless you make a full magnitude in performance it is likely imperceptible to human vision.


So my conclusions of you thinking 230:1 was noticeable from 75:1 is probably argument of placebo effect.

Without wishing to turn this thread into a slanging match, I can definitely see the difference and it's not placebo: If I put my screen down without putting up my 'tent' and other dark throws the image looks awful...like an old LCD projector. It takes me about 10-15 minutes of faffing about to setup these room 'treatments' but if I do the image has some much more depth to it and blacks within the image really do look black rather than grey. I wouldn't bother doing it if I thought there was no difference (I'd much rather just lower the screen and turn on the projector). Put it another way, are you really saying that a projected image in a white walled (or just very light grey in my case) room looks the same as one in a black pit? While my 'treated' room is a little way off a full bat cave, it's only the back wall some 6 metres from the screen that isn't covered in black once I'm setup.


I measured the ANSI contrast out of interest to see what the difference was between the two room setups (and some in between to judge how effective, say covering the floor in front of the screen was in addition to the 'tent'). The bare room measured 75:1 and with all the treatments and dark throws I could find I measured 231:1.


I had some help regarding the light meter and it's usefulness from darin on another thread, so I'm surprised at your comments. But bear in mind it was the same projector for both tests, no changes to any settings, so not marketing hyperbole, just a measurement done out of personal interest to help me optimise the room and plan for something a little quicker to setup, given how much I prefer the image presented this way.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Well folks, those were some useful responses. I actually almost put my flame suit on before reading the replies, but, thank-fully, you all took my question seriously. I don't doubt that differences in ANSI contrast due to room treatments makes some difference. I guess the bottom line is that although it is measure-able, it's not a determination of overall picture quality. One way to look at LCD projectors with 400:1 ANSI contrast and higher is that perhaps this helps LCD the most because their native ON/OFF is usually quite low compared to LCOS. When compared to DLP, I can't recall if the ON/OFF of a comparably priced DLP has higher ON/OFF vs LCD. Like I said, comparing the Sony with high ANSI to the JVC with low ANSI could prove something, but...the fact that CRT projectors look great and have low ANSI CR is a good point. Plasma displays have great ANSI too, but that's another display altogether.


Anyhow, I am not going to decide against getting a JVC because they don't have high ANSI CR. I am just getting very close to pulling the trigger after teasing far too many forum readers with my 'plans' to buy a projector. After going through a projector a year for many years starting back in the early 2000's...I went AE100>AE200 (fluke upgrade due to insanely low priced used AE200)>AE300 (tried it, was defective...and first gen smooth screen too soft for me anyways) and then the Hitachi TX100 and then TX200. Wow, what a nice sharp projector. Very sharp, but...remember vertical banding and peak-a-boo scanlines? Those were fun times! ...and still comparatively low contrast and high black levels. Then a bigger jump in performance with the Epson Home 1080, and again the jaw-dropping low black levels and high contrast (at the time) of the 1080 UB Pro. I couldn't deal with the soft picture and weirdness, so I bailed.


So now I sit, deciding between the Mits HC7000, the JVC HD250 or the RS40...or possibly a used RS20 or 25...probably not a used RS15. No, I don't think ANSI contrast will affect my decision anymore, but thanks for the feedback. Although it is possible that higher ANSI can make a picture better, it won't be a deal breaker or maker for me.


I'm going to try and have a look at a Mitsubishi HC7000 if they are still in the stores I saw them in, and then the HD250 and hopefully an RS20 and/or 25 and then I'll make a decision based on what I see. I just had to clear up my reservations as I was reminded of the whole low ANSI CR issue. My main concerns with chosing a projector right now are: 1) sharpness 2) colour reproduction. Bulb life and overall unit quality, other issues etc are things I'll just have to accept as they are with whatever I choose.
 

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Kelvin - one difference is that not having your room treated tends to wash out your entire picture which is different than having a lower native ANSI cr. I wholly agree that eliminating reflections is the way to go but tend to disagree that room reflections and lower native ANSI have the same effect.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans /forum/post/19452627


Kelvin - one difference is that not having your room treated tends to wash out your entire picture which is different than having a lower native ANSI cr. I wholly agree that eliminating reflections is the way to go but tend to disagree that room reflections and lower native ANSI have the same effect.

My point was that measuring the ANSI contrast in these two room setups showed a difference of approximately 3 times better. Tryg made a ridiculous statement that this would purely be placebo and I couldn't actually see it.
However, I know that I can tell the difference (I can't bear to watch anything remotely serious without setting the room up), so thankfully don't have to rely on Tryg's permission to watch a film this way.



I don't follow why poor native ANSI contrast (ie less than 100:1) would give different results to poor ANSI contrast caused by a light room...they'd both be a disapointing result: The black squares would be lit up by washout whether caused internally by the projector or by reflections from the room.


However, in the case of the JVC that started this debate, it might well be that 300:1 (or whatever it measures) is sufficient to provide a good image in a bat cave anyway. Not only this, the high native on/off contrast of these models would help in certain scenes as well, allowing a higher gamma which helps give more apparent depth/contrast in brighter scenes. As a side issue, I wonder just how many owners of JVC DILA projectors actually get close to the 300:1 ANSI contrast in room anyway?
 

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An additional point is...room matters! To take these measurements you need zero reflections in the room. Deep black! Secondly you need to know how to take them correctly.


I'm not saying that ANSI can't have an affect. Just like changing to a cleaner lens or any better component that might make the ANSI go up.


I am saying it's unlikely you see the difference. AND with the sliding scale of different rooms that aren't labs, in the real word there's virtually no valuable difference between a 200:1 ANSI projector and a 1000:1 projector.


ON/OFF CR is what matters!
 

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Thank you for you clarification Tryg. I thought you meant I couldn't see the difference between my 75:1 and 230:1 room setups, which I know I can. I wish it was placebo so I could save the hassle of setting up, with a bit of brainwashing.



I've been unable to test whether a higher native ANSI projector can show much difference in my room as I only own the one projector. I may be involved setting up a home cinema for a friend soon and it could be a DLP model due to price. If so, I'm going to try to borrow it just to measure it in my room, but more just out of interest. I'd never get anywhere near the specified measurements, but I wonder how close to 75:1 and 230:1 it would be given approx twice the ANSI to start with and as you say whether it would even be noticable?
 

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Here are some experimental results for real room ANSI measurements http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=966 that some may find interesting.


The brighter and higher contrast the image is the more important ANSI contrast is. The dimmer the image the more important On/Off contrast is. Overall light output is also key. Many projection systems are too dim to display colors well because they are falling further into the mesopic or even the scoptic region. I do find there is a point of diminishing returns on both ANSI and On/Off contrast.
 

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I think both on/off and ANSI are important, but they are only two aspects of image quality - you can't make an image without other aspects, and if if colour accuracy is important, you can do a search and see what some owners thought of the oversaturated primaries of the early JVCs and the threads here that were generated. Nobody seemed to mind about the low ANSI then.



Once you've seen the halos and streaking that some air coupled CRTs produced, you'll see why owners wanted to upgrade to liquid coupled lenses with higher ANSI contrast - ANSI does matter.


I've seen both colour and brightness change in the dark areas of a CRT when it had bright areas on screen, and found it quite distracting. A lower on/off digital did a much better job in that respect (same room) but then the blacks were disappointing in scenes that required close to full blackout. In an untreated room the blacks on the CRT looked worse than the blacks on the digital in a treated room. So as has already been said, to get the best of the ANSI metric you need a good room. Having said that, even in a poor room, the pj with the higher ANSI CR will still have a higher ANSI CR than the pj with lower, but unless it's really bad (halos etc). you may not notice the difference.


Gary
 
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