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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I threw every DVD I own at the JVC, and am happy to report that I was very very impressed. So much that I think I can relax now and enjoy my movies. My first tests were on video and animated material. I had read that the JVC did not do as well with “video based†material such as XFiles DVD extras etc, BUT the JVC seemed to always go into film mode in progressive and the material looked incredible. Swapping to the Denon it looked a “bit†sharper, while the JVC had more of a “film†quality to the animation.


For a first test I inserted Harry Potter. This was the 1st movie I watched on my Denon 1600 and the one that made me return to the hunt for a different player. In particular I wanted to see the smoke coming from the Hogwarts Express train. Did it look like smoke, or a grey digital cloud? I was elated to see that it indeed looked just like SMOKE and not a crawlie cloud! Other scenes in this movie looked equally impressive. Now the JVC image was not as “sharp†as the Denon, that is to say it did not have a “hyper-crisp†and “eye-popping†look to it, BUT it resembled much more of a “window.†It looked more like a “movie window†than a “digital image.†Further tests included One Hour Photo, The Matrix, Fifth Element (no jagged red button either), Goldmember, Spiderman, LOTR, Signs, The Others and many others. The colors on The Wedding Singer were vivid and simply amazing! All had the same clear, filmlike quality. Crystal clear, and did not have a look like it was “trying†to make a great picture – it just does it.


Now, for scaling. The Denon does not scale, which irritated me on special features on some discs. The JVC does scale. On properly flagged discs, the image was properly adjusted to fit the 16:9 screen. There are two different 16:9 settings, Auto and Normal.


On improperly flagged discs, I wanted to give it a shot. I tested Titanic. In auto mode the disc was not scaled properly, however in normal, the movie scaled down and was displayed with black bars on all 4 sides of the image. This made the image scale properly, but was reduced in size on the screen. Enter the JVC zoom function. One click on the zoom and the screen was full with small black bars top and bottom with a proper image – no squished faces. There was also almost NO loss in PQ with the zoom used in this fashion. Titanic looked excellent here, with great detail, etc.


I did not test DVD-A, (no music discs!) but I DID hook it up. I am happy to see that after hooking up the 6 analog outs, I was able to access an audio menu that let me set speaker size (importance since I have satellites), delay, and decibel levels on the analog outputs. I would not use the JVC for music, but tested it anyway and it had excellent sound just as the Denon does.


Layer changes were very fast. As fast as the Denon, even with its reported 3 MB buffer. I compared layer changes on both players with Shrek, and the JVC was just as fast to me, and way faster than my old Toshiba.


Both players are excellent. Denon has better “digital reproduction†qualities and looks a tad better with animated stuff (and I mean a “tad†– my wife could see no difference when asked) On film stuff, the JVC smokes. The image is smooth, colorful, and looks like I am looking at REAL people, skies, mist, smoke, faces, etc vs. overly crisp digital reproductions. Wife confirmed this as well – and she was originally against the idea of this comparison testing.


Some other COOL features on the JVC - press the play button while watching the movie and you get am instant 5 second repeat of what you just saw. Excellent. If I had a dollar for everytime my wife said "what did he say?-rewind it!" I could pay for my entire setup. This feature scored high on the waf, and will prevent me from having to fiddle with rewind, play, etc...just one press. Another cool feature is that all of the setup screens are avaliable while the movie is playing. Color, contrast, etc can be tweaked while you watch the movie.


In my setup, and most importantly to my eyes, the JVC wins – no contest. With all respect to Secrets, etc reviews, this exercise proves to me that there is no substitute for seeing a player in your watching environment no matter what the chips are, stats, etc. I tested all of the same scenes they show on the secrets page and was happy with all of them on the JVC . Maybe the Denon has the better stats, innards, etc, but who cares if the image is not pleasing to my eyes. Maybe the Denon will “properly†play more discs….but again, no big deal. I will take a once a year non-properly-playing disc over an everday very sharp but almost 2-D looking image.


It is also a very nice looking player. I can also dim the display or turn it off completely. (cannot do that with the Denon) This was good as the unit sits just below my TV.


MY disclaimer for this review: try the player yourself from a place you know you can return it to. After all this, I am less likely to blindly recommend any player now. Seeing is believing.
 

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Yeah I really liked my JVC-500, same as the 600 just with out DVDA, it was inexpensive and provided a good picture. Alas my JVC died a coule days ago and the only other JVC-500 was in a crushed box so I decided not to chance it.


if you go over to vcdhelp.com/dvdrhelp.com and look at the player hacks some people are trying to enable multi-region on it. They haven't figured it out but they have been pretty close.
 

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You say there is no Chroma bug. Are you 100% positive of this. What is the chip used. Is it Sage/Faroudja?


Also, can you explain a bit more about sharpness. Is the JVC less sharp in comparison to Denon, or is it just not sharp to anyone randomly watching a DVD. I am wondering how subjective this comment is.


Thanks for the review!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Parent
You say there is no Chroma bug. Are you 100% positive of this. What is the chip used. Is it Sage/Faroudja?
Not sure of the chip, it is not Sage/Faroudja. I will find it, I knew it at one time....


I am positive of the chroma bug. Did not see it on my 42" plasma on any scenes.....



[/b][/quote] Also, can you explain a bit more about sharpness. Is the JVC less sharp in comparison to Denon, or is it just not sharp to anyone randomly watching a DVD. I am wondering how subjective this comment is.[/b][/quote]


I suppose the comment is somewhat subjective, since everyones setups vary - I would doubt that any two are exactly alike. I can say, and it has been posted on the forum as well, that the Denon looked much more "2-dimensional" in that it is VERY sharp. Like everything on the screen is ultra-sharp. I don't know about movies, but my REAL vision is good, but not as super sharp. The JVC seemed more like that "real" way I see. Others may differ. The Denon was so sharp that I had to turn down the sharpness on my plasma to - 10, and even then it still seemed to have much more "edge" than I like. The JVC is just as clear an image, but without the harsh sharpness (or edge) that the Denon produces. Granted, the Denon is a very nice image, but to me I like faces, skies, etc to look natural, not like a perfect digital reproduction.


If I had never discovered this forum, I likely would not have noticed so much and wouldn't want to test like I did. In a way, this forum can act as a poison: striking fear in me to buy anything since it will never be "the best" or "have all the features.". I thought the picture on my old Toshiba interlaced player was excellent until I saw a progressive one. And so it continues... :)


My wife commented on this after I switched back and forth between the same players as well. This is mostly apperant on film material, not animation.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Parent
You say there is no Chroma bug. Are you 100% positive of this. What is the chip used. Is it Sage/Faroudja?
The JVC uses the Mediamatics chip. Same as that in the Malata. I have a 602SL region-freed, and the only thing that bugs me is that on scenes with a brief burst of light (eg a flash), the progressive image rolls. there's another thread describing this problem. Otherwise, I really like this player. The PAL->NTSC conversion is top notch!
 

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You are definitely not the first to find the Panny-based output too digital/sharp looking and prefer the JVC's more film-like PQ. I've seen a few other posts here and on HTF that feel the same way, and they use different display types too, including CRT-based RPTV and digital FP.


Your review of the generall/overall PQ and your confirmation about scaling combined w/ all the problems of the Philips 963sa and lack good alternatives are really swaying me back towards getting a JVC 600. The other neat features like the 5-sec repeat sound super also--that's the first time I heard of it. Would've been preferable for me to have SACD than DVD-A, but the JVC is only 1/2 the price of the Philips and many others (eg. Denon 1600). I'd rather save the $$$ for something else given all the flaws w/ other players.


RE: the chip used, it's supposed to be a new revision of the Mediamatics Pantera 2 all-in-one chip (or so I hear). Too bad we don't have confirmation from the Secret's Shootout on whether it performs the same as the older JVC models (or maybe better), which used the original Pantera 2. The older models did not do well on the shootout and would frequently fall out of 3:2 pulldown due to bad flags and had mediocre video-based deinterlacing.


RE: the "poison" and "striking fear" bits, LOL, I'm sure plenty of us know what you mean. :D It's nice to see more firsthand comparison reviews like this one that puts things back into perspective.


Thanks a bunch. Think I just might run out and get the JVC to see for myself now.


BTW, I just heard that there's a problem w/ the JVC's handling movies that use subtitles for intermittent foreign language dialog. Seems to trigger them to turn on subs for the rest of the movie unless you manually turn them back off.


Anyway, thanks again for your thorough review post.


_Man_
 

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are we all sure there is no C-bug in there?
 

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The JVC players DO NOT have the chroma bug.


What are some properly flagged non anamorphic discs? Every non 16x9 disc I have tried hasn't scaled properly on my 600BK (Little Mermaid, Bug's Life, English Patient, Office Space, Nightmare Before Christmas)
 

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Peter,


But based on pcrx's review, you should be able to manually scale those DVDs. According to his review, you just set the player to 16x9 Normal (not Auto) and then use "one click on the zoom" for this. Have you tried that?


_Man_
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Peter,


I was able to change the 16:9 setting and then zoom. You have to zoom since it makes the image small on the screen, but it only took one click on the zoom. I did not try Nightmare Before Christmas....I have it and will try that one tonight.


Man,


Yes, the JVC does have a y/c delay adjustment, but I did not notice anything weird (using my eyes anyway) so I did not make any adjustments there.
 

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So just to make sure, when you used the 16x9 Normal mode w/ zoom on Titanic (and Little Mermaid), there was not excessive cropping. You had the correct OAR w/ normal TV overscan, correct?


Thanks again. I think I will finally buy a prog scan player now. :D


_Man_
 

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Nice review. Thanks for sharing. I don't at all mean to nit-pick, but I do want to point out that none of the films you mention are video material, and the only one that would have any chance of stressing the deinterlacer is Monsters Inc., because of its alternating progressive flag issue. The rest are properly-flagged films that don't really cause problems for any player. If you really want to see the largest differences, try watching a making-of documentary on the two players, like the ones on Lord of the Rings or some other feature-laden disc, or a TV show like X-Files or Buffy.


The JVC really does have excellent video quality when the films are flagged properly. It's when they aren't that things start to break down. It's a completely flag-based solution, and has no motion-adaptive video deinterlacing, so anything that's not marked progressive gets treated as video, producing a very soft picture, and in some cases the "soft combing" effect, which I find really distracting. All that said, in lots of cases the picture is quite watchable, even if it's not perfectly deinterlaced.


The basic video quality issues you mention are most likely the result of the video encoder and filters. Denon has a pretty darn flat frequency response out of the box, but that's not always a good thing. On some displays, especially CRTs, the results are often very pleasing. On a digital display which is inherently pretty sharp, the results can look "edgy" or "digital," which sounds like what you're describing.


This just underlines to me that there's no "perfect" player for everyone, and no perfect frequency response curve. The Denon does have some frequency response adjustments; did you try Cinema mode or adjusting the sharpness down in the Denon?


Best,

Don
 

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Isn't there also a film mode setting on the player to force 3:2 pulldown so it ignores the flags? I think that would be good enough for me since I don't watch true video-sourced content all that much. The few TV shows I'd watch on DVD are usually film-based also, eg. Sopranos, Band of Brothers, Star Trek TNG, etc. Even if the rare DVD I own requires video-mode deinterlacing, it's either no worse than my Panny RPTV's linedoubler or I can just fall back on that. And I can tolerate lower PQ for documentaries and extra features--it's really the movies and actual shows themselves that matter.


Given all the nice features, including scaling and option of getting region-free PAL->NTSC playback, at a nice price, I'd much rather sacrifice the PQ somewhat on the rare DVD I own and the occasional documentary/featurette. I'm sure I have plenty more non-16x9 DVDs than video-sourced content that matter much.


But thanks for the input, Don. Always nice to hear from your perspective around these forum sites.


_Man_
 

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Video material looks quite bad on this player (ST: TNG, Futurama, etc) even if you force the player into video or film based mode. I prefer to switch the player to interlaced when watching these. Dmunsil's assessment is accurate. When material is properly flagged, the JVC looks fabulous.
 

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Man,


The problem is that forcing the player to film mode fails miserably on material that was shot on film but transferred like video, because the frames as recorded on the disc are generally not actually progressive -- the wrong fields got paired when the disc was encoded. The X-Files, for example, looks completely unwatchable on most flag-reading players unless you force them into video mode, at which point you're not getting the benefits of progressive scan. On the other hand, a Genesis/Faroudja-based solution will recognize the film cadence and do a great job with the X-Files discs.


The only things I've seen forced film mode work on is the discs that have the alternating progressive flag like Monsters Inc and Austin Powers, and in that case the player really should recognize that pattern and go into film anyway.


Ultimately almost any player can be made basically watchable by switching to video deinterlacing mode, but it's a pain to have to switch (especially on the JVC, where you have to stop the disc), and if you have to use video mode you lose all the benefits of having a progressive-scan DVD player.


Me, I'd continue looking for a player that has good deinterlacing and the film-like picture you want, or see if you can get the picture to look smoother on the 1600 by adjusting the sharpness controls on the player, before I'd get the JVC. I owned a JVC for several weeks, and I really liked it on discs that it worked well on. But when it failed, it really was annoying.


Don
 

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Really? ST:TNG looks bad? Hmmm... It doesn't look so hot w/ my Panny TV's linedoubler either since it combs frequently. I'm actually a little confused by ST:TNG since it was originally shot on film, but is the only film-sourced DVDs I have that cause noticeable (and frequent) combing for my TV's linedoubler. Perhaps, they used 30fps film like Paramount tends(?) to do and/or used video-based editting/reprocessing throughout.


Only other network TV series I own so far is the first season of Mash, and I haven't actually tried that yet w/ the TV's linedoubler. Others I own are a few HBO series of which I've only tried Sopranos and Band of Brothers so far.


I really wish somebody would come out w/ a truly good all-around player at an affordable price. I could do w/out DVD-A and SACD, but scaling is a must. Alas, the Philips 963sa fell short of this despite sporting all the right hardware to yield exactly what I want, including my modest preference for SACD. Sigh!


_Man_
 

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Man-Fai Wong


Yes there is y/c adjustments. One of the major downfalss, well at least on the 500, was the fact that the zoom icon would stay on untill you zommed back out to regular view. This icon isn't tiny either it takes a nice chunk of relestate inthe top left corner of the screen. When asked why this was JVC responded, "So you don't forget you're in zoom mode".


LOL
 

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Peter,


So you've tried the zoom in 16:9 Normal mode, not Auto mode, like pcrx mentioned?


I keep getting conflicting reports about these JVC player's scale/zoom functions. The method mentioned by pcrx has also reportedly worked for at least one regular poster on HTF w/ an older model. IIRC, it also sounds similar to the methods used in the Panny RP91 and Tosh players to do manual scaling. If it really doesn't work for you (and some others), could this just be a firmware issue? Sounds like it might be.


_Man_
 
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