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Kaleidescape does have another level of cost involved in the content they serve because of the handling, processing, and size of data they are serving. There's cost but also value added there that, honestly, I think we take for granted.

Then you need to consider elements like content owner/provider revenue split and volume. Apple, for example, sells a vastly larger number of a given movie than Kaleidescape does, thus they profit much more from that content because of that volume when costs are fixed. Profit = margin x volume.

Let me ask this. If full blown MA doesn't pan out, for whatever reason you conceive, but Kaleidescape were to offer a code or token or something that allowed a store purchase to be redeemed at another retailer, would that make folks happy?

I realize it doesn't address porting in. I want full 2-ways rights as much as anyone here as I'm sitting on a 1,078 count MA locker myself. But what other options could exist that folks would deem to be an acceptable measure?
 
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I guess I'm confused...why spend $24.99 just for Vudu's copy of this film, instead of buying the 4K disc for slightly more? You can then watch it in your Oppo in full quality, and you also get a digital copy in 4K in Vudu and HD in iTunes.
Two reasons IMO:

1. Some of us are done wanting physical media and don't want the discs or disc-handling experience anymore.

2. If you really want to build a forward-thinking media library where you will get access to the larger wealth of titles in the latest technology formats, I recommend starting your migration away from discs now. There are hundreds of movies in 4k/HDR/etc. on Kaleidescape, iTunes, etc. not on or likely ever coming to disc. Disc is not going to get you early access or day-and-date. Disc will not get you to 8k or whatever comes next. It's a dead end library path.

For all of us, Kaleidescape is only solution ready to serve us the benefits of #2 at higher levels of quality vs. streaming. This is why I'm growing increasingly more passionate to see them succeed. I've come to this conclusion for my own use and desire, especially as I now have a room really capable of making the most of high quality source content.

At this point in my media consumption, if Kaleidescape didn't exist thought, I'd just take the hit and go all iTunes and live with the quality reduction. But we still have an option for the digital, cutting edge experience and quality, so I want to use that plus iTunes.
 

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Some of us are done wanting physical media and don't want the discs or disc-handling experience anymore.
Fair point, but I rip all my discs to my NAS, so that essentially eliminates that issue.

For Rise of Skywalker specifically, the best quality version out there (all things considered) is probably the physical disc.
 

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A lot of things being said about K and MA is pure speculation. No one knows the real truth. Also, if more the merrier is the philosophy of MA, then pretty much all retailers should have been part of MA from the beginning. Why are the retailers being on board one at a time? And there are still some retailers who are not part of movies anywhere.

I think K can go with the idea of giving digital rights if you buy movies in the K store, but digital rights from other providers do not transfer over automatically for free. To get that you pay an additional fee, something like Digital to Disc pricing.

The reasoning for this is buying through K is the same as buying a disc. If you buy disc, you get the digital rights, but if you buy directly digital, you do not get the disc for free. Since K quality is comparable to Disc, this would be a better option.

So free digital rights through MA if you buy through K store but you pay an additional fee if you want to access digital movie purchases on K, win-win for all.

As for immersive codec, there is no reason for K to not include immersive audio if provided by studios. Their workflow is the same, so including immersive audio is no additional work from K perspective. My guess is the workflows from studio perspective will need changes, which is why it is taking longer. The movie studio are known to drag their feet. Hopefully this will be resolved soon for Fox with the purchase by Disney. Maybe universal will come around as well.

Reducing the pricing of hardware is a no brainer in my opinion to increase the base of K, thereby increasing the sales of movies from K store. No idea why K is not following this route.

One reason could be they do not want to become a competitor for a shark like Apple, Vudu etc, which could lead the sharks to start their own version of service. If it ends up there, K will be wiped out pretty quickly. Again my 2 cents.

I just wish someone like Apple will provide 4k streaming with their video but with lossless audio. This should be doable without much increase in file size. Heck they can even force us to download movies for this option and only stream compressed version. If they did this, they will own the market.
 

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Fair point, but I rip all my discs to my NAS, so that essentially eliminates that issue.
It doesn't though. You can't rip what you can't buy. You're on the same dead end path because DIY ripped servers depend on having the discs to begin with.

A ripped NAS only gives you inconvenient access to the content from your discs. You can't get a movie in 4k that the studios won't sell. You won't get early releases or day-and-date when it comes. Eventually, you will get shut out due to lack of availability, improved copy protection, or your hard drive array is going to fail and all that ripped stuff and the time you spent on it says goodbye.

I don't mean that to sound harsh, just realistic. I know because I was on the same path. I had 1,500+ movies on a 12-bay Synology. I've done every HTPC, jailbroken Oppo, Zappiti, Infuse, Plex, and more. But I feel I understand the shortcomings of all that and the so many lost hours spent doing it.

We are entering an inflection point in home entertainment and movies and a lot is going to change. It already was and COVID will accelerate it.
 

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It doesn't though. You can't rip what you can't buy. You're on the same dead end path because DIY ripped servers depend on having the discs to begin with.

A ripped NAS only gives you inconvenient access to the content from your discs. You can't get a movie in 4k that the studios won't sell. You won't get early releases or day-and-date when it comes. Eventually, you will get shut out due to lack of availability, improved copy protection, or your hard drive array is going to fail and all that ripped stuff and the time you spent on it says goodbye.

I don't mean that to sound harsh, just realistic. I know because I was on the same path. I had 1,500+ movies on a 12-bay Synology. I've done every HTPC, jailbroken Oppo, Zappiti, Infuse, Plex, and more. But I feel I understand the shortcomings of all that and the so many lost hours spent doing it.

We are entering an inflection point in home entertainment and movies and a lot is going to change. It already was and COVID will accelerate it.
My original comment was specifically about why spend $24.99 to get Rise of Skywalker from Vudu ONLY, when $29.99 would give the disc PLUS Vudu/iTunes. :)
 

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For Rise of Skywalker specifically, the best quality version out there (all things considered) is probably the physical disc.
It's not. Kaleidescape is. :)

It's an 80.8GB download with lossless Atmos on Kaleidescape. On disc, it's a BD-66.
 

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It doesn't though. You can't rip what you can't buy. You're on the same dead end path because DIY ripped servers depend on having the discs to begin with.

A ripped NAS only gives you inconvenient access to the content from your discs. You can't get a movie in 4k that the studios won't sell. You won't get early releases or day-and-date when it comes. Eventually, you will get shut out due to lack of availability, improved copy protection, or your hard drive array is going to fail and all that ripped stuff and the time you spent on it says goodbye.

I don't mean that to sound harsh, just realistic. I know because I was on the same path. I had 1,500+ movies on a 12-bay Synology. I've done every HTPC, jailbroken Oppo, Zappiti, Infuse, Plex, and more. But I feel I understand the shortcomings of all that and the so many lost hours spent doing it.

We are entering an inflection point in home entertainment and movies and a lot is going to change. It already was and COVID will accelerate it.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I disagree with almost all the points you made here (for how I consume media...nothing inconvenient about it). Main one being: if we think relying on a company to hold (securely) our movie libraries on our behalf, that's dangerous. If K went under tomorrow, you'd have nothing for all the money you spent.
 
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For example, I recently bought Star Trek: The Rise of Skywalker in 4K Atmos quality from Vudu. That way it is part of our digital library, which it would not have been if I had bought the film from Kscape.
WOW! You got the upcoming 4th Star Trek movie from Vudu and they haven't even started to shoot it yet! :D:D:D
 
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We'll have to agree to disagree. I disagree with almost all the points you made here (for how I consume media...nothing inconvenient about it). Main one being: if we think relying on a company to hold (securely) our movie libraries on our behalf, that's dangerous. If K went under tomorrow, you'd have nothing for all the money you spent.

Of course we will. As long as the hardware functions the content will be available to playback.


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Let me ask this. If full blown MA doesn't pan out, for whatever reason you conceive, but Kaleidescape were to offer a code or token or something that allowed a store purchase to be redeemed at another retailer, would that make folks happy?
Yes, this would get me buying new titles from the K store again.

I don’t mind paying a premium over iTunes/Vudu prices for K quality. What I refuse to do is pay K prices on top of iTunes/Vudu prices. I have one location where I can watch K movies, and 7 locations where I can watch iTunes, plus tablets and phones. I buy one or the other, and right now it’s 90/10 iTunes/K.

That doesn’t address any content I collected prior to buying into K. I got the majority of stuff ported in via UV before that went belly up, but there’s still some missing. Perhaps a one-time-per-account import from MA to K? Or an upgrade fee from MA to K? I have no idea if that’s possible, but I’m just thinking of future owners with large digital owners buying into K for the first time.

One last thing about pricing. I mentioned the Bond films in my last reply. I own the BD box set - I think I paid $100-$150 for it years ago. 23 films for the cost of 3-4 on K. So make a box set on K for $200 (mark up to cover the work involved in making the K ‘magic’) and I’d be all over it... if I hadn’t already bought the BDs...


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We'll have to agree to disagree. I disagree with almost all the points you made here (for how I consume media...nothing inconvenient about it). Main one being: if we think relying on a company to hold (securely) our movie libraries on our behalf, that's dangerous. If K went under tomorrow, you'd have nothing for all the money you spent.
I'm with you. If K fails, K owners are "toast" when their equipment fails. And with lack of digital rights, they are completely screwed. If the studios no longer produce discs, at least I still have both the ripped version and the shiny disc. And I am in the process of backing up my ripped files to store off site.

And if studios quit producing discs (certainly a real possibility) what is their motivation for generating specialty files for this tiny, tiny little company called Kaleidescape? I would be willing to bet that the profits from shiny discs certainly exceeds whatever they that earn from K.

K most certainly has some nice advantages, but the downside far exceeds (IMO) the downside of me ripping discs. And I can watch my movies on any device that support Plex.

And as it relates to this survey, if K would just become transparent and state their position on each of the items that have been recommended, it could certainly be a step in the right direction. But if their answer continues to be "it's the studio's fault", that won't earn many points. On the other hand if it really is the studio's fault, then shame on K for not clearly thinking this whole thing (move to 4K) through prior to the launch. Their continued lack of open AND honest communication is doing them no favors.
 

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I'm with you. If K fails, K owners are "toast" when their equipment fails. And with lack of digital rights, they are completely screwed. If the studios no longer produce discs, at least I still have both the ripped version and the shiny disc. And I am in the process of backing up my ripped files to store off site.

And if studios quit producing discs (certainly a real possibility) what is their motivation for generating specialty files for this tiny, tiny little company called Kaleidescape? I would be willing to bet that the profits from shiny discs certainly exceeds whatever they that earn from K.

K most certainly has some nice advantages, but the downside far exceeds (IMO) the downside of me ripping discs. And I can watch my movies on any device that support Plex.

And as it relates to this survey, if K would just become transparent and state their position on each of the items that have been recommended, it could certainly be a step in the right direction. But if their answer continues to be "it's the studio's fault", that won't earn many points. On the other hand if it really is the studio's fault, then shame on K for not clearly thinking this whole thing (move to 4K) through prior to the launch. Their continued lack of open AND honest communication is doing them no favors.

As I know from an article I read K is not dealing with the disc devision with studio the same digital devision that provide for the streaming service so I think if the studio pull off and this not very soon also K will not had a problem as they deal as a digital provider

I agree with all the fearing but since 2003 till now they are survive and work a month of problem thing happen but I think they are in good matter not sure how strong but from what they add since 2016 till last thing adding the bond collection and hope thing come to me it’s a good sign that they are in good financial condition and wish for them the best with all respect to all opinion


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WOW! You got the upcoming 4th Star Trek movie from Vudu and they haven't even started to shoot it yet! :D:D:D
Thanks for the “Gotcha!” I’m sure others appreciated it as much as I did. Anyway, I have corrected my original post to say “Star Wars.”
 

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I'm with you. If K fails, K owners are "toast" when their equipment fails. And with lack of digital rights, they are completely screwed. If the studios no longer produce discs, at least I still have both the ripped version and the shiny disc. And I am in the process of backing up my ripped files to store off site.

And if studios quit producing discs (certainly a real possibility) what is their motivation for generating specialty files for this tiny, tiny little company called Kaleidescape? I would be willing to bet that the profits from shiny discs certainly exceeds whatever they that earn from K.

K most certainly has some nice advantages, but the downside far exceeds (IMO) the downside of me ripping discs. And I can watch my movies on any device that support Plex.

And as it relates to this survey, if K would just become transparent and state their position on each of the items that have been recommended, it could certainly be a step in the right direction. But if their answer continues to be "it's the studio's fault", that won't earn many points. On the other hand if it really is the studio's fault, then shame on K for not clearly thinking this whole thing (move to 4K) through prior to the launch. Their continued lack of open AND honest communication is doing them no favors.
I believe in other service failings and mergers (Target Ticket, CinemaNow, and upcoming with VUDU/Fandango), owned content was transitioned by the studios through arrangements to another service. I am confident enough for myself that if Kaleidescape failed, store content would get honored in iTunes or FandangoNOW by the studios.

A lot folks make assumptions that Kaleidescape get disc-based assets from similar workflows and contact points that work with the physical media releases, but that's not the case. Just because it's on a disc doesn't mean it is a slam dunk, copy/paste effort for Kaleidescape to get it. I do agree this is an area where they could share some more information with the technically minded segment like us, and I hope to try and make that happen at some point.
 

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I just want to add my thoughts about K.

I have had a 10TB Strato for about 2 years now, and I loved it when UV was still around. With the end of UV, and the concern about K’s long term stability, I have been hesitant to buy many titles on the K store for fear of having them locked into a close system.

About two month ago I decided to buy an Alto, so I could do “disc to digital” offers and upgrades. It also allowed me to move many HD only movies off my Strato and leave the Strato HDD for 4K HDR only.

The ability to load a Blu-ray into the Alto and either convert it to Digital HD or upgrade to 4K HDR at a discounted price is really nice. I then decided to pickup a DV700 for my Blu-ray Disc that didn’t offer “disc to digital”.

The way the DV700 works with the Alto is great. It doesn’t “rip” the movies to the HDD, but instead plays the disc directly from the DV700, leaving all the HDD space available for HD movie store downloads. So the DV700 with the Alto really works as a 320 bluray changer. There is only a short maybe 10 second delay to start playing the disc in the vault, but besides that, it plays just as if it was copied to HDD. It can start right from the movie, skipping all the opening warnings and additional junk, and it has direct scene access just like the movie downloads.

If K can’t sort out the Movies Anywhere issue, or the lack of immersive audio on some titles, it would be so nice to see a 4K disc vault that could work with the Strato, just as the Alto does. It wouldn’t have to rip the movies, which then doesn’t require a server with massive hard drive space.

With that setup, movies that have Atmos could be bought directly from K, but for titles where they don’t have 3D codecs, you could load those 4K disc in a vault, no disc ripping required. That would allow for seamless operation between K movie downloads and physical 4K Blu-rays with their great user interface. That also would allow the digital codes that are sold with the physical disc to be redeemed and shared with family thru iTunes or Vudu, etc.

I love the K interface, and would love to see a 4K disc vault. Again, I have no interest having it work like the old premier systems, where every movie has to be ripped to hard drive. Just allow the vault to play the disc, acting as a 320 disc 4K Blu-ray changer and leave the HDD space available for K store purchases.



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Of course we will. As long as the hardware functions the content will be available to playback.
I'm pretty sure it does a license check before playback. Maybe not always, but I'd be shocked if the answer was never. Has anyone tried running a Strato that is disconnected from the Internet for an extended period of time? That would most likely settle this.
 

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I'm pretty sure it does a license check before playback. Maybe not always, but I'd be shocked if the answer was never. Has anyone tried running a Strato that is disconnected from the Internet for an extended period of time? That would most likely settle this.
Been answered somewhere else (probably on KOwners site) - but can't be bothered trying to find the post. AFAIR the only connection that it makes is to receive updated "movie guide" details (movie metadata). Other than that - no the playback of files does not require to contact the "mother ship". All the security measures of ownership are contained within the Kaleidescape units/software.
 

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The way the DV700 works with the Alto is great. It doesn’t “rip” the movies to the HDD, but instead plays the disc directly from the DV700, leaving all the HDD space available for HD movie store downloads. So the DV700 with the Alto really works as a 320 bluray changer. There is only a short maybe 10 second delay to start playing the disc in the vault, but besides that, it plays just as if it was copied to HDD. It can start right from the movie, skipping all the opening warnings and additional junk, and it has direct scene access just like the movie downloads.

If K can’t sort out the Movies Anywhere issue, or the lack of immersive audio on some titles, it would be so nice to see a 4K disc vault that could work with the Strato, just as the Alto does. It wouldn’t have to rip the movies, which then doesn’t require a server with massive hard drive space.

With that setup, movies that have Atmos could be bought directly from K, but for titles where they don’t have 3D codecs, you could load those 4K disc in a vault, no disc ripping required. That would allow for seamless operation between K movie downloads and physical 4K Blu-rays with their great user interface. That also would allow the digital codes that are sold with the physical disc to be redeemed and shared with family thru iTunes or Vudu, etc.
100% agree. If K had released a 4K version of the DV700, I would still be a customer (I had an Alto and DV700 and LOVED IT). While there may (or may not) have been 4K drives when K moved to 4K, there has been for many years. As others have stated, the current K business model requires you to buy your media from them, at premium pricing, regardless of the fact that they may not have the proper audio - and a 4K DV700 would allow you to buy elsewhere. I'm pretty sure you will never see a 4K DV700. K has made that abundantly clear.
 

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If K offered a one-way voucher that permitted highest-quality-available rights transfer "out to" the MA world, my first take is I would likely be ok with this.

I've never been aggressively seeking not buying from K to save $5, but much more desirous of access to my purchases wherever and whenever I want - and protection of that library should K unfortunately fall on hard times.

Having said that, I'm unaware that MA offers such a one way option. Not saying it does not exists, but I believe every partner thus far participates bi-directionally (gee that sounds odd!)

Nonetheless, a few caveats for me:

1- K would have to get the advanced codecs for 20th Century and NBCU up and running to make this fully fleshed out. I'm less likely to buy regardless of the one-way ticket if this is not part of the offering. Tangential to this: if if there is a 4kUHD ATMOS-unavailable KScape title that one "redeems" in MA (where the ATMOS version is available), what would one get?

2a - We would need to be really comfortable that K remains reasonably competitive with movie sell prices, as they are effectively soft-blocking the option of buying elsewhere (should one choose to follow this path).

2b - This postulated one way voucher should not increase the price of movies on K further, as they are already generally at a premium.


I understand that K has higher management, processing, storage and delivery costs as a percentage of revenues compared to the big boys, but let's not forget the sell price of their HW systems as helping pay for that ($7-15 thousand vs $199 for an Apple TV!). The HW itself is not exhaustively complicated nor does it feature exotics/expensive components, so there likely is a huge premium baked in to cover a number of expenditures (GUI/experience, infrastructure, etc.). I would so hope anyway...
 
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