Kef KHT 9000 ACE

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I'll try to help out here but don't take this personal because this is just one person's opinion ok. Before I bought my Kef Q1's I went to listen to B&W VM1, LM1, and 602. I said to myself if the VM1's sounded as good as my eggs or better I would probably get it since they look so cool. Well long story short the LM1, VM1, 602 all sounded thin, kinda raspy and not natural as the sound of Kef that Im normally use to. As matter of fact the Kef 2002(eggs) sounded a lot better than those B&W's to the point where it was not hard for me to make a decision.


Now on to the FPMs I haven't heard those but I hope they're better than the VM1's. You know what though, if you're very happy with your 601 then chances are the FPM's will suit your tastes just fine. But if you're just OK with your current 601 and feel something can be better then I would suggest you really consider the 9000 or 5005.

How you doing Harol my 9000 friend? Glad to hear you finally got your center stand. Now you have to break them in for another 2 weeks. You know it's crazy. There's a chap with the 5005 over at avtalk who said it took him 175-200hrs breaking them in until they opened up. Well you know what he was right on the money. This time I kept a journal to the minute the time and sure enough at around 170hrs they just started to open up and after 200hrs they just like took off.

You know this is ridiculous. I just don't know why we have to break these suckers in like this. I mean Kef should play these damn things for 200hrs in their factory and then shipped them out. We shouldn't have to do this. I nearly return my eggs couple yrs ago when I first took them out of the box and heard them after few days.

Ok now that I got that off my chest I will say the 9000 are absolutely delicious. I can honestly say now that I no longer have the upgrade virus in my body with the 9000 and Denon 3805. Completely 100% content.

I feel like that onebgyn gentleman in the ultra high-end gear thread with his Wilson Audio X2's. What's that phrase he likes to use...."I feel like I've reached audio nirvana".

I have to interject guys,


The PSW-4000 is one mother of a woofer, and will benefit greatly from the "parametric" EQing in your receiver. The biggest thing about great bass response is sub placement- you'd be surprised just how good you can make a mediocre sub sound when you place it right.


I've had the 9000s since March basically- and I haven't really noticed that they've "opened" but then I did torture them before the review.


Bottom line: you need at least a 12" driver to fill a mederately sized room. My personal preference is still mutiple sealed-cabinet subs. That seems to me to be the best way to get even bass at every seat.


Just my .02


Dan


Oh, and Dsq:


The 9000 has the same imaging abilities as the last 601 (S2) that I listened to, but you'll find that the midrange is more neutral. There's also a layer of airiness that you get from the Uni-Q tweeter that you don't find in the 601s. Another factor is that the 601s can play reasonably-well to the mid -40s, whereas the 9000s are very over at 70 when it comes to bass. I don't know if that's an issue in your system or not- but something to consider.

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Yes, that maybe so Dan but we're not talking about the PSW4000 . We're talking about harol's 2500 and my previous 3000. I mean do you know how large my room is? Do you have 18ft sloped ceilings? Is your room "L" shaped? My PSW300 was a 10" with mere 250W sub, where am I going to place it that's going to make a diff? It just got eaten up in the large room. And my 3805 can only do so much, it can't give power(wattage) to the sub.


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Well I don't know many hrs you mean by torturing them but I do know mine were "asleep" for at least 160hrs. After 200hrs they took on another life form. They became SO MUCH more FLUID and transparent anybody can tell. Not only that, I did not have to turn up the volume so much for it to play louder. So 2 things became very apperent: silky -smoother--transparent sound playing at higher levels, no doubt about it. Over at the Brit forums like avtalk and avforum they're experiencing the same thing so I know it's not just just me.

The room that I have that particular sub in is 23 feet by 52 feet by 8 acoustically- that's 9424 cubic-feet roughly, and yes there is a section that is L-shaped. I isn't about more power, the 500W amp inside the PSW-4000 makes a 3db difference, that's it. I placed my woofer where it would negate the first 2 axial modes (length and width), it is at roughly the

ACOUSTICAL center of the room. For a small sub in a large room- especially in the case of the 3805 or the 2400; where there are some self-diagnostics, put the woofer close to the listening area, like as an endtable or behind the couch- that way you're so close to the woofer that the acoustic energy hasn't dissipated yet- that makes blending the woofer to the mains more difficult but it can work, especially if you happen to have your couch near a boundary (wall).


Kef actually recommends the PSW-2500 with the 9000s, now what type of room that's in is beyond me, but I doubt that they would recommend a sub that performs poorly in most rooms. I'm not in your room, and I don't know exactly what type of levels you're trying to get out of your sub, but I can tell you from almost a dacade of installation experience, and the acoustics training I've gone through that it can be done. A RS spl meter cannot give you the frequency response of your system from 20Hz to 80Hz accurately, and even if it could- how would you know what was the sub versus the sub/room interaction (modes)?


Funny, you didn't quote me when I said that you really need at least a 12" driver to fill a moderately-sized room, and that I prefer to use multiple subs

(4 or more). My mention of the PSW-4000 was in respose to your comment that Kef isn't known for their woofers- well that kind of goes without saying since Kef has only recently put effort into marketing ANYTHING in this country (ads). The 4000 and the 5000 are a step well-above the other woofers from Kef, no doubt. Sure companies like SVS or HSU that only make woofers, can have plenty of performance, but there are plenty of other loudspeaker mfrs that are in the same boat as Kef: Paradigm didn't really make a musical woofer (excepting the servo-15) until the PW-2200, and PW-2500. PSB has 2 worthwhile woofers- their 2 highest priced models, both 15s. M&K has been an exception because most of their woofers were 2-12" drivers in tandem. Jamo (the 3rd largest speaker maufacturer on the planet) has exactly 1 good-sounding woofer, and it doesn't hit 20Hz.


If you want a great woofer; buy the DD-15, or a ContraBass, or 4 Sub Miramars from CAT, or the Krell beast, or Wilson, or Dunlavy- anything else is making a compromise. I'm just trying to be real here- if someone can afford 2700 for a front stage (without stands) msrp- then they can pop for a 1000+ sub too.


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Well I don't know many hrs you mean by torturing them but I do know mine were "asleep" for at least 160hrs. After 200hrs they took on another life form. They became SO MUCH more FLUID and transparent anybody can tell. Not only that, I did not have to turn up the volume so much for it to play louder. So 2 things became very apperent: silky -smoother--transparent sound playing at higher levels, no doubt about it. Over at the Brit forums like avtalk and avforum they're experiencing the same thing so I know it's not just just me.

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I wasn't saying that you did or did not experience what you say about the 9000s at "200 Hrs" I'm saying that I didn't notice it with mine, that's all .


Dan

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Ok let me get this straight, how in the world can Kef recommend the PSW2500 without knowing the room’s dimensions. I don’t get it. I pasted these specs straight from Kef website – 33hz – 150hz.

So let’s say we go with your theory about sub placement. So I find the magical best possible spot in the room, will that change those numbers of 33hz – 150hz. Will it be able to go lower than 33hz? Now even with 2 PSW2500, can it go lower than 33hz?

Im sorry Dan but 33hz is not going to cut it. Forget about it… why bother with it. Even the entry HSU STF2 goes down to 25hz. When I had the PSW3000 I felt nada, zilch. I put the SPL1000 in the same spot...BINGO! It’s that simple, my eyes and ears don’t lie.


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Yea, no thanks I’ll pass. I never said Im in need of a great sub. You must be mistaken me with Harol, he’s the one not too happy with his PSW2500.

Im completely satisfied with my SPL1200II or my old SPL1000.

Well, you should know about the reviews on the Kef site- since you were the one who told me MY review was there. Under the UK reviews, the title is "ACE Technology" or something very similar.


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"But it is as a full home cinema package that the speakers really shine,and, in any case, we recommend you use the PSW2500 matching subwoofer...."


I checked the specs on your Velodyne through the website- and I noticed that there are some specs conspicuously missing: at 20Hz how many db+/- is the SPL1200MKII? is that on or off-axis? the Kef 2500 is 3db down at 33Hz 15 degrees off-axis:


which means it WILL BE MAKING SOUND AT 20Hz- but it will probably be in the 6-8db down range.


I'm not doubting that your woofer is also making moise at 20, but YOU AREN'T LOOKING AT THE WHOLE PICTURE, you have to understand what these specs mean; 3db down is a notable reduction in sound level, 6db down is HALF the volume, and so on.


I find it a little dubious that you can't match the Velodyne specs apples to apples with the Kef. (That's not dubious on your part, but rather Velodyne's)


Don't just look at numbers on one site, then numbers on another site and assume that because one is reported lower that it's better- which is obviously what you did. There are lots of woofers out there that you could "truthfully" say have frequency response down to 20Hz- as in any wooofer that is within -10db of signal level at 20Hz....does that mean that they all perform well?


I also have no doubt that your SPL1200MKII is perceptibly better than the PSW3000 that you had- but what exactly does the frequency response of your room look like from 80Hz-down? How do we know that the sealed versus ported design change wasn't what actually made the difference?

There are so many more factors at work than just woofer A vs woofer B, and that was the point that I initially tried to make- and then AGAIN in my second post, and now ONCE AGAIN in my third.


I won't continue to argue acoustics here since I know where you and I stand on that- and so do you...and if you don't remember- just ask yourself WHY you even have stands for those 9000s.


I wasn't trying to make this some one at the other correspondence- and I wasn't using sarcasm or belittling language. Not to mention YOU were the one who mentioned to Harrol that he needed a better woofer- I just suggested another Kef woofer.


that's it