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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was lead to believe from the KenwoodUSA site that the 5900M would, in fact, have bass management facilities for DVD-Audio discs. However, in the recent update to HomeTheaterHIFI.com, few (or none?) have bass management built-in for DVD-Audio outputs.


Can someone (preferably an owner/reviewer) bring some clarity here?


Thanks.
 

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Jon,


I don't have a 5900M, but I have it's manual.


On page 78 of the manual, on the right half of the page it explains how to set custom speaker settings. Here it shows menu settings to adjust a low cut filter on the center, left front, right front, right surround, and left surround speakers. You can also set size and volume level for all of these and you can set time delay for the center and surrounds.


On page 79 of the manual, at the top right it explains how to set the volume level of the subwoofer.


Is any of this what you mean by bass management?


Of course the features shown in advertising material for the 5900M say it has "bass management".
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
PNichols,


Thanks for the reply. Yeah, all DVD players that have Dolby Digital and DTS have bass management facilities. The big "?" is if the unit also implements bass management (as you described below) for the 6 analog outputs that send hi-resolution DVD-Audio to your pre-amp/receiver.


Most units do NOT do this, and limit bass management to the digital outputs. I was thinking that the Kenwood also implemented bass management to the analog outputs...


Still looking for clarity.
 

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Jon,


The 5900M has minimal bass management functionality, but it does have some. Not sure how it compares to other DVD-A players. You can set the 5 main speakers (L/R/C/LS/RS) to SMALL or LARGE. Setting a speaker to small invokes a 100 Hz x-over. This is the only x-over point implemented on the 5900M. Setting a speaker to LARGE runs it full range. Levels can be set for each speaker from 0 to +12 dB. There is a built-in test tone generator for level setting. Delays can also be set for the C, LS, and RS speakers. The subwoofer can be set to ON or OFF and level can also be adjusted from 0 to +12. There's no mention in the manual of bass redirection to the sub if individual speakers are set to SMALL. Also, each speaker can be turned OFF if you're using less than a full 5.1 array. That's about it. Fairly minimal flexibility here, but it sounds as if the Kenwood gives you more bass management options than some other DVD-A players out there. Certainly it's nothing compared to the bass management options in my Theta processor. Wish these companies would get off their butts and agree to a high res digital transmission standard for DVD-A and SACD transports. If we could do all this processing in the digital domain in the receiver or pre/pro it would be so much better. What we have now is such a kludge!


Tom
 

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Jon,


These bass management settings definitely apply to the analog outputs only. The manual states so. I can't see why they wouldn't apply for DVD-A signals output on the 6 CH analog outputs also.


Tom
 

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Jon,


Here are two clarification paragraphs from page 76 of the manual that refer to the sound setting section running from pages 76 through 79.:


""SOUND" is to be selected when you want to set the audio output method when system components are connected using the digital audio output connector of the players".


(The above is what you just said and not what you are looking for.)


Now - this may be what you are looking for,


"When the system is connected using the 6CH OUTPUT jacks of the player, also select "SOUND" to set the speakers, audio output during DVD or VCD search, dynamic range control function and audio filters."


This 2nd paragraph sure sounds like the bass management stuff on pages 77 through 79 applies to the 6 channel audio outputs.


By the way I failed to mention in my earlier post, on page 77 it shows how to adjust the Audio Filter to 60 kHz or 110 kHz to protect speakers.
 

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I believe the 100Hz crossover for Normal sized speakers and the volume level settings apply to DVD-Audio as well. But the manual states that the time delay settings apply only to Dolby Digital (which probably also includes DTS, I would think, but not DVD-Audio).
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the clarity! I'm relieved to hear that the 5900 has DVD-A bass management. Stacy, would you say that the 5900 is the only unit on the market with DVD-A bass management? It sure seems like it.


That would put it, again, in a class by itself. Who would think Kenwood would be so ahead of the curve?!


Still, I wonder if the delays for the surround channels are implemented in the analog domain. If so, that's a HUGE issue that is resolved per HomeTheaterHIFI's DVD-A article that was recently posted.
 

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Quote:
Still, I wonder if the delays for the surround channels are implemented in the analog domain.
The Bass Management on the Kenwood does not include Time Alignment. As the DVD-Audio article says, this is not feasible in the analog domain.


As for other players, the Denon DVM-4800 has quasi Bass Management. It's not a good solution in my opinion. It merely duplicates bass from all the channels into the sub without filtering out any bass from the mains and surrounds.


I believe Meridian is now supporting DVD-Audio in their higher end line, with Bass Management all in the digital domain even. Of course it's very expensive.
 

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According to postings here by Buzz Goddard of Tag McLaren (and he ought to know :) ) currently available DSPs simply don't have enough horsepower to do both MLP decompression and bass management simultaneously in the digital domain. As a result, it'll be at least a year or so before digital bass management, timing and amplitude calibration will be available for DVD-A source material.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Selden Ball
According to postings here by Buzz Goddard of Tag McLaren (and he ought to know :) ) currently available DSPs simply don't have enough horsepower to do both MLP decompression and bass management simultaneously in the digital domain. As a result, it'll be at least a year or so before digital bass management, timing and amplitude calibration will be available for DVD-A source material.
Hmmmm. Are you talking about performing those functions in the pre/pro or in the player itself? If the former, the Lexicon MC-12 will do all of those today, if you choose to convert the 6-channel analog signal to digital at a very transparent 96/24. If you choose the analog bypass path, you're limited to the player's capabilities, of course. However, the A/D is very clean, and the benefits of the additional processing are readily audible. It only drives home the point of how compromised these formats are with analog only player outputs.


Cheers,

Philip Brandes
 

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Quote:
According to postings here by Buzz Goddard of Tag McLaren (and he ought to know ) currently available DSPs simply don't have enough horsepower to do both MLP decompression and bass management simultaneously in the digital domain. As a result, it'll be at least a year or so before digital bass management, timing and amplitude calibration will be available for DVD-A source material.
True, but one can employ multiple DSPs to get the job done. Meridian does the MLP decompression in the DVD player and the bass management in the surround processor. They have their own proprietary digital link with encryption.
 

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Philip and Craig,


Buzz was referring to doing the corrections in the player, since Meridian's DVD-A player is the only one that (so far) has an authorized copy-protected digital output.


Of course, given the appropriate processor capacity, one can redigitize and process the result as necessary. Unfortunately, that capability seems to be limited to a very few models of high-end audio processors at the moment.


Many people are rather unhappy at the thought of having to spend a lot more money replacing players and pre/pros when "they" finally decide on a standard copy-protected high resolution digital audio output.


Don't mind me. I'm just whining ;) (and making do with DAD discs in the meantime)
 

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Philip,


Why in the heck would I want to do a D/A in the player, an A/D on the input, followed by more DSP touching and finally yet another D/A conversion? Too many domain switches has a subtractive effect. A 3rd Generation copy is a poor substitute for the original.


If you're happy doing this, that's fine, but I certainly won't espouse the use of this technique just to gain bass management. I'd rather add an ICBM for that task and not go through extraneous A/D and D/A conversions.


Just my thoughts on the subject.


Regards,
 

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I'm glad many of the participants read the article we wrote on DVD-Audio, and encourage all who haven't yet to do so.


No player, with the exception of the Meridian 800/861 is offering time alignment on DVD-Audio. This is a weakness to be sure.


I don't know that Sony's multi-channel SACD players are providing time alignment either. Are their entries available for speaker distances in the multi-channel players from Sony?


The Philips and Marantz multi-channel SACD units do not have bass management or time alignment options at this time.


Regards,
 

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Jon,


To answer your original question, the article was prepared prior to the introduction of any players with bass management capability.


Since the article was written, the Kenwood 5700/5900, Denon 4800 and the EAD Theater Vision Ultra, all have been released.


Regards,
 
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