Has anyone viewed the Key Digital Leeza and the TAW Rock + and discerned any performance differences in terms of video and film mode? Outside of having more inputs/outputs, are there any other advantages going with the Leeza?
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Key Digital Leeza - TAW Rock-any performance differences?
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Video Processing is the same.
The LEEZA does not have Y/C delay adjustment (not sure which other processors do).
KD uses slightly more advanced hardware on the LEEZA, as I understand, so PQ *could* be effected by it.
The main difference is of course inputs and output options. LEEZA has ALOT (SVideo/Composite/component on different inptus, SDI and RGBHV passthrough), and - of course 3 outputs (DVI, component and RGBHV).
I know of no other scaler that has this variety of inputs and outputs (although Vigatec comes close).
The LEEZA does not have Y/C delay adjustment (not sure which other processors do).
KD uses slightly more advanced hardware on the LEEZA, as I understand, so PQ *could* be effected by it.
The main difference is of course inputs and output options. LEEZA has ALOT (SVideo/Composite/component on different inptus, SDI and RGBHV passthrough), and - of course 3 outputs (DVI, component and RGBHV).
I know of no other scaler that has this variety of inputs and outputs (although Vigatec comes close).
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My take on Y/C adjustment:
It was very important with laser disc. A lot of disc's were mastered with a chroma delay bug. Because laser disc was an NTSC format the delay could have been induced from the NTSC decoder in the player or your TV.
I have yet to see a dvd with chroma delay. If there is one it is a needle in a hay stack.
We have yet to hear of any chroma delay issues with DSS.
On the other hand your own equipment can induce Y/C delay. Cables, tv decoder ect. Still I think this is moot.
Would I want this feature in my scaler? Yes.
Would I still buy a scaler if it lacked this feature. Yes.
One thing to remember is no other scaler to date has this feature
not even the Faroudja so it seems none of the larger manufactures think its important.
We've done without it for this long so concider any scaler with this feature to be a feather in its cap.
Regarding the Leeza don't forget it also has KD's transcoder built in as well. This allows you to feed it component or rgb from a HD receiver or progressive dvd player to its pass through.
Both units are outstanding products and offer outstanding performance. Its a win win for the consumer no mater which unit he chooses.
It was very important with laser disc. A lot of disc's were mastered with a chroma delay bug. Because laser disc was an NTSC format the delay could have been induced from the NTSC decoder in the player or your TV.
I have yet to see a dvd with chroma delay. If there is one it is a needle in a hay stack.
We have yet to hear of any chroma delay issues with DSS.
On the other hand your own equipment can induce Y/C delay. Cables, tv decoder ect. Still I think this is moot.
Would I want this feature in my scaler? Yes.
Would I still buy a scaler if it lacked this feature. Yes.
One thing to remember is no other scaler to date has this feature
not even the Faroudja so it seems none of the larger manufactures think its important.
We've done without it for this long so concider any scaler with this feature to be a feather in its cap.
Regarding the Leeza don't forget it also has KD's transcoder built in as well. This allows you to feed it component or rgb from a HD receiver or progressive dvd player to its pass through.
Both units are outstanding products and offer outstanding performance. Its a win win for the consumer no mater which unit he chooses.
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Since LEEZA adds no Y/C delay on its own, it is not a big problem.
Y/C delay gives you the ability to correct Y/C delays that might be present in other equipment or sources. If you have Y/C delay in cabling or from your source (e.g., a problematic satellite receiver) - Y/C delay can remove it.
As Alan said - it's a very "nice to have" feature. However, it's not a "make or break" issue if the scaler doesn't have it.
It is always better to try and correct your source, instead of trying to fix inherent problems with it. Sometimes that's not possible (e.g., your projector has inherent Y/C delay you need to correct), so Y/C delay is helpful.
If your sources have no Y/C delay problems (this can be easily tested) - you don't need to use it.
One of the problems with the Rock is that, contrary to what TAW believes, it does not look that attractive. It might be nice on a rack with equipment facing away from you. It simply doesn't fit my particular tastes.
Unfortunately, LEEZA has followed suit. The front panel is a bit boring. I'm hopeful they will fix that in the next production run. That, along with the other small fixes (See Ericbee's thread) will make LEEZA one of the most attractive scalers we've seen.
Y/C delay gives you the ability to correct Y/C delays that might be present in other equipment or sources. If you have Y/C delay in cabling or from your source (e.g., a problematic satellite receiver) - Y/C delay can remove it.
As Alan said - it's a very "nice to have" feature. However, it's not a "make or break" issue if the scaler doesn't have it.
It is always better to try and correct your source, instead of trying to fix inherent problems with it. Sometimes that's not possible (e.g., your projector has inherent Y/C delay you need to correct), so Y/C delay is helpful.
If your sources have no Y/C delay problems (this can be easily tested) - you don't need to use it.
One of the problems with the Rock is that, contrary to what TAW believes, it does not look that attractive. It might be nice on a rack with equipment facing away from you. It simply doesn't fit my particular tastes.
Unfortunately, LEEZA has followed suit. The front panel is a bit boring. I'm hopeful they will fix that in the next production run. That, along with the other small fixes (See Ericbee's thread) will make LEEZA one of the most attractive scalers we've seen.
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Quote:
Alan,
Doesn't the Crystal Image have a Y/C delay adjustment. I seem to remember adjusting this on my setup.
| On the other hand your own equipment can induce Y/C delay. Cables, tv decoder ect. Still I think this is moot. ... One thing to remember is no other scaler to date has this feature |
Doesn't the Crystal Image have a Y/C delay adjustment. I seem to remember adjusting this on my setup.
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Quote:
Maybe I'm weird, but I tend to look at my screen, not my scaler.
My Rock's up in the rack and I never notice it.
I guess my priorities are all screwed up.
| One of the problems with the Rock is that, contrary to what TAW believes, it does not look that attractive. It might be nice on a rack with equipment facing away from you. It simply doesn't fit my particular tastes. |
My Rock's up in the rack and I never notice it.
I guess my priorities are all screwed up.
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Quote:
I had a friend once who said he would not get a certian product because it looked like a heath kit. I said, "who cares what it looks like, look at how great it performs." He was more concerned with the products looks. Oh well.
| I guess my priorities are all screwed up. |
Let's be honest, we all prefer good looking components over ugly ones. You can all BS each other but, that's a fact. If a component works and is ugly, that's one thing, I am not suggesting we all ONLY buy components because they are good looking. Many components sell SOLEY due to their looks, look at Bang and Olfson. Overpriced, underperforming and very cool looking. Doesn't seem to hurt their sales. My point is that I think the Leeza is ugly and I still bought it. Do I think that more people would buy it if it looked like a $6000 scaler rather than a $1500 PC, you bet I do! Some Leeza pals and I have already begun a "revamp" of the units cosmetics, we would prefer a more elegant looking unit. It is unfortunate that people like Patrick have to "hide" or "bury" their units deep in their racks. I bet they would be less likely to do so if their units looked better. My 2 cents anyway.
Lets face it when your paying $5000 for a High end audio component your usually getting a very attractive package including 1/2 inch thick aluminum front plate and pride is apparent in the workmanship.It seems when your buying a scaler you are getting a thin aluminum project cabinet with sharp corners.I know it's what's inside that counts but this is not an inexpensive item and should not look like one.Just my opinion. Tom.W
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There's no 'hiding' anything in my Rack. It's just the simple fact that the only time I'm even next to my Rack is when I'm putting in a DVD.
I'm just not sure why it would be any different for others.
Is the Rock+ the best looking thing in my Rack? Heck no?
Do I care in the least? Nope, not at all.
I'd take it over a (much nicer 'looking') Faroudja NR any day
Whether you think it's BS or not, the looks of a unit will always be dead last on any list of mine
I'm just not sure why it would be any different for others.
Is the Rock+ the best looking thing in my Rack? Heck no?
Do I care in the least? Nope, not at all.
I'd take it over a (much nicer 'looking') Faroudja NR any day
Whether you think it's BS or not, the looks of a unit will always be dead last on any list of mine
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Ignoring the firestorm that is likely to follow Mr. Haflich's post(unless people realize that the topic has already been discussed to death, without anyone coming to full agreement, and move on)...
...I wanted to comment on the aesthetics question. To me, the problem is not so much that the Leeza looks bad, but rather that it will look different than other pieces of equipment on the rack. For that matter, every piece tends to look different than the others.
If you're lucky, they'll all be black, but they'll still be styled differently: different textured fascias, different colored lights and displays, different organization, etc.
That's why the Leeza could look as pretty as [insert favorite car here] and I'd still want to hide it. The heterogeneity that bugs me.
Now if one manufacturer with a single unified sense of style made every piece of equipment I want to buy, well then I might want to actually display them.
...I wanted to comment on the aesthetics question. To me, the problem is not so much that the Leeza looks bad, but rather that it will look different than other pieces of equipment on the rack. For that matter, every piece tends to look different than the others.
If you're lucky, they'll all be black, but they'll still be styled differently: different textured fascias, different colored lights and displays, different organization, etc.
That's why the Leeza could look as pretty as [insert favorite car here] and I'd still want to hide it. The heterogeneity that bugs me.
Now if one manufacturer with a single unified sense of style made every piece of equipment I want to buy, well then I might want to actually display them.
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Mark H,
You always seem to be popping up all over the place saying how much the LEEZA will be downgraded and the Rock+ improved. I don't want to flame you (believe me I'm really trying to contain myself), but you are hardly an objective observer here.
As discussed here before - there is no official word on the LEEZA software issues - so please stop spreading slurs, crap and misinformation in the guise of being forthcoming. Your adgenda as a Rock sales person, is quite obvious.
mcg1969,
I agree with you completely. The subject was already mulled to death. However, I guess Mark H. doesn't think so, and keeps providing misleading slurs to his heart's content. I really thought this was resolved before, but Mark H. persists.
Patrick,
There are people that like to set aside a rack and put their equipment there. Those people (I guess you included) wouldn't care if a particular set of equipment looks like a brick.
Some of us (incl me) have their stuff up front staring at the viewer. Each and every piece of equipment for such systems needs to look like "WOW". In particular the scaler, since most people are already used to high end receivers and DVD players. You want something like the Faroudja NRS or Terranex that your guest will walk up to and exhale a big "WOW - what the heck is that" statement. That's still a big part of the magic of HT.
I have a good friend that decided to go with the RP91 over the RP56 for the primary reason of how the unit looks. RP91 looks like high-end equipment, and the RP56 looks like it was designed and manufactured somewhere in the rice fields of China.
What people want is a $5000 piece of equipment that looks like a $10,000 unit, not a $1000 PC.
You always seem to be popping up all over the place saying how much the LEEZA will be downgraded and the Rock+ improved. I don't want to flame you (believe me I'm really trying to contain myself), but you are hardly an objective observer here.
As discussed here before - there is no official word on the LEEZA software issues - so please stop spreading slurs, crap and misinformation in the guise of being forthcoming. Your adgenda as a Rock sales person, is quite obvious.
mcg1969,
I agree with you completely. The subject was already mulled to death. However, I guess Mark H. doesn't think so, and keeps providing misleading slurs to his heart's content. I really thought this was resolved before, but Mark H. persists.
Patrick,
There are people that like to set aside a rack and put their equipment there. Those people (I guess you included) wouldn't care if a particular set of equipment looks like a brick.
Some of us (incl me) have their stuff up front staring at the viewer. Each and every piece of equipment for such systems needs to look like "WOW". In particular the scaler, since most people are already used to high end receivers and DVD players. You want something like the Faroudja NRS or Terranex that your guest will walk up to and exhale a big "WOW - what the heck is that" statement. That's still a big part of the magic of HT.
I have a good friend that decided to go with the RP91 over the RP56 for the primary reason of how the unit looks. RP91 looks like high-end equipment, and the RP56 looks like it was designed and manufactured somewhere in the rice fields of China.
What people want is a $5000 piece of equipment that looks like a $10,000 unit, not a $1000 PC.
Oferlaor: I agree with your above post.
In regards to Marks post about upgrades: let's assume for some reason Key cannot allow software upgrades via the net, an assumption I disagree with, because of an agreement with TAW. Now they offer one: what is TAW going to do, sue? Do that and you better find a new source for deinterlacing because I doubt suing your supplier will make your production easier. What will Key lose? An operating system? Probably not becuase Mark was an independent contractor/designer who was paid for his work. Even if he wasn't, do you think no one else can write an operating program? Try APEX tech or any other B university with programming 101, it's not Windows XP you know. Not to mention that writing algorithyms is a little more important and difficult to learn and implement. I'm tired of hearing this scare tactic to potential Leeza buyers at AV Science Forums. Get lost. Don't you have a TAW forum with over 11 members to go push your crap to? We understand, no upgrades, were screwed. The Leeza is no good and will be obsolete withing 3 months. That news should start a huge backorder list for Rocks. Oh by the way, there is a new Rock Plus for sale on Audiogon for $3500 and the guy is from New York City. Gotta wonder what he saw to make him want to sell such a gem at 30% off, go figure.
http://gonmain.iserver.net/cgi-bin/c...deo&1010766801
Thanks, Buh Bye!
In regards to Marks post about upgrades: let's assume for some reason Key cannot allow software upgrades via the net, an assumption I disagree with, because of an agreement with TAW. Now they offer one: what is TAW going to do, sue? Do that and you better find a new source for deinterlacing because I doubt suing your supplier will make your production easier. What will Key lose? An operating system? Probably not becuase Mark was an independent contractor/designer who was paid for his work. Even if he wasn't, do you think no one else can write an operating program? Try APEX tech or any other B university with programming 101, it's not Windows XP you know. Not to mention that writing algorithyms is a little more important and difficult to learn and implement. I'm tired of hearing this scare tactic to potential Leeza buyers at AV Science Forums. Get lost. Don't you have a TAW forum with over 11 members to go push your crap to? We understand, no upgrades, were screwed. The Leeza is no good and will be obsolete withing 3 months. That news should start a huge backorder list for Rocks. Oh by the way, there is a new Rock Plus for sale on Audiogon for $3500 and the guy is from New York City. Gotta wonder what he saw to make him want to sell such a gem at 30% off, go figure.
http://gonmain.iserver.net/cgi-bin/c...deo&1010766801
Thanks, Buh Bye!
once and for all, again, the Leeza literature and maual clearly states that firmware upgrades will be available over the internet.
Mark: how do you explain that? it doesn't say "fixes", it says upgrades. Once again, what basis do you have to say otherwise? if you could back up your claims, then we could have a discussion; otherwise its written word vs. your opinon, and that is definitely flavored by your taw association. the burden is on you to put up or shut up. all of us would appreciate more information, but so far your credibility in this matter sucks.
Mark: how do you explain that? it doesn't say "fixes", it says upgrades. Once again, what basis do you have to say otherwise? if you could back up your claims, then we could have a discussion; otherwise its written word vs. your opinon, and that is definitely flavored by your taw association. the burden is on you to put up or shut up. all of us would appreciate more information, but so far your credibility in this matter sucks.
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Ok, Mark, I'll bite. What do you mean that the Leeza is "not allowed" to be improved via internet downloads?
Do you mean there is a specific state or federal statute prohibiting the download of such upgrades? I'm not aware of any (which doesn't mean they don't exist), so tell me if they do exist.
Do you mean that there is a contract between KD and someone--TAW possibly--containing a clause which would permit TAW to sue for breach, if the download were available? If so, then of course KD is "allowed" to download. They would simply be subject to a breach of contract action. However, such a clause has no meaning whatsoever unless the aggrieved party seeks enforcement. Tell me that KD is not allowed to download after there's a suit filed, seeking injunctive relief, and a court order prohibits KD from doing it. Until then, it's naive to speak in terms of what they're "allowed to do."
Legally, there is an issue called standing. This essentially deals with the question of who is in a position to assert what rights. If TAW had a contract with KD, and claimed breach, it would have standing to sue. If, however, some stranger to the contract, possessing no rights under it, would attempt to assert them against KD, that person would have no standing to sue. That person would be considered an interloper.
So, I guess my point is, when I hear about TAW asserting its rights, I'll take the comments seriously. Otherwise, gratuitous assertion by strangers to the contract should be recognized as meddling.
Nick
| Originally posted by mark haflich Also, the Leeza is not allowed to be improved (as distinguished from fixed)by internet down loads. I know my post will upset some here and that is not my intent. One should not buy one over the other and then be surprised. I am absolutely certain of what I say here. |
Do you mean there is a specific state or federal statute prohibiting the download of such upgrades? I'm not aware of any (which doesn't mean they don't exist), so tell me if they do exist.
Do you mean that there is a contract between KD and someone--TAW possibly--containing a clause which would permit TAW to sue for breach, if the download were available? If so, then of course KD is "allowed" to download. They would simply be subject to a breach of contract action. However, such a clause has no meaning whatsoever unless the aggrieved party seeks enforcement. Tell me that KD is not allowed to download after there's a suit filed, seeking injunctive relief, and a court order prohibits KD from doing it. Until then, it's naive to speak in terms of what they're "allowed to do."
Legally, there is an issue called standing. This essentially deals with the question of who is in a position to assert what rights. If TAW had a contract with KD, and claimed breach, it would have standing to sue. If, however, some stranger to the contract, possessing no rights under it, would attempt to assert them against KD, that person would have no standing to sue. That person would be considered an interloper.
So, I guess my point is, when I hear about TAW asserting its rights, I'll take the comments seriously. Otherwise, gratuitous assertion by strangers to the contract should be recognized as meddling.
Nick
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