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I am trying to decide between the following two speakers, I can get either for about $100 each and wanted to see if anyone knows which is better. If you want to recommend a different one to me, it is important that it has the invisible rim design (magnetic) like these two do, and that they can be had for around $100 each.


Revel C263
http://www.revelspeakers.com/Products/Details/196


Klipsch R-2650-C II
http://www.klipsch.com/R-2650-C-II


I am planning on using this for whole home audio (background music).
 

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From my experience with Klipsch consumer speakers, I'd go with the Revel's. Klipsch tweeters can sound harsh until you get into their THX Ultra2 and above models.
 

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Be careful with choosing Revel.


Revel floor-standers are horribly inefficient speakers, requiring gobs of power.


If their in-ceiling are also very inefficient - only 86 dB/w.

You will have a hard time getting them enough power with typical whole home amplifiers to get reasonable sound level if the room they are in is anything but tiny.
 

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Beware hearsay and statements regarding 86dB sensitive speaker requiring a lot of power.



My Phil3 speakers are 85dB/2.83v/m and 4 ohms nominal. Yet I only use a Denon 3312 w/o any ext amps at all (in 2.0 Pure Direct mode) to power them to deafening volume in my 18' x 20' x 12' family room that is open to kitchen, dinning, and formal living room.


I've heard Revel in-wall and in-ceiling speakers being powered with 60 WPC amps and sounded great.


So beware hearsay on forums.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23363864


Be careful with choosing Revel.


Revel floor-standers are horribly inefficient speakers, requiring gobs of power.


If their in-ceiling are also very inefficient - only 86 dB/w.

You will have a hard time getting them enough power with typical whole home amplifiers to get reasonable sound level if the room they are in is anything but tiny.

My brother has five NHT SuperZero (86dB/w) + SW2P sub and an old Harman Kardon 50 WPC AVR. His living room is 20' x 20' x 15' open to 3 sides. We can play to high volume all day long. Never an issue.


Same thing with my little inefficient ATC SCM7 bookshelf. No issue at all.


So have you actually used 86dB/w/m speakers or just repeating the hearsay floating around forums?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23364014


My brother has five NHT SuperZero (86dB/w) + SW2P sub and an old Harman Kardon 50 WPC AVR. His living room is 20' x 20' x 15' open to 3 sides. We can play to high volume all day long. Never an issue.


Same thing with my little inefficient ATC SCM7 bookshelf. No issue at all.


So have you actually used 86dB/w/m speakers or just repeating the hearsay floating around forums?

I actually owned the SW2P sub. Still have the box and amp, but replaced the driver and not using the amp. The original SW2P is a little boomy to me, but it was one of the first powered subs available. I do not own as many speakers as you, but I do have six different sets in my house right now. I have low sensitivity and high sensitivity speakers currently. My low sensitivity speakers can get unbearably loud, but I can listen to my high sensitivity speakers with much higher peaks. What happens when you have low sensitivity speakers, as the volume increases they start to soft clip. This is not something that you can hear. What happens, is you start to lose dynamics. In other words as you increase the volume, the lower levels increase, but the upper levels have already reach the max peaks the system can produce. So everything gets loud, distortion climbs and everything starts to get uncomfortable. With my high sensitivity speakers I can increase the volume and still maintain the dynamics. It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve. Not everybody is going to want to listen at loud volumes, but I will tell you this, a system that can play clean reference levels is a real eye opener.


Now with all of this said, For distributed audio, I think this would be less of a problem. You are not trying to produce movie peaks with this system.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23364118


I actually owned the SW2P sub. Still have the box and amp, but replaced the driver and not using the amp. The original SW2P is a little boomy to me, but it was one of the first powered subs available. I do not own as many speakers as you, but I do have six different sets in my house right now. I have low sensitivity and high sensitivity speakers currently. My low sensitivity speakers can get unbearably loud, but I can listen to my high sensitivity speakers with much higher peaks. What happens when you have low sensitivity speakers, as the volume increases they start to soft clip. This is not something that you can hear. What happens, is you start to lose dynamics. In other words as you increase the volume, the lower levels increase, but the upper levels have already reach the max peaks the system can produce. So everything gets loud, distortion climbs and everything starts to get uncomfortable. With my high sensitivity speakers I can increase the volume and still maintain the dynamics. It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve. Not everybody is going to want to listen at loud volumes, but I will tell you this, a system that can play clean reference levels is a real eye opener.


Now with all of this said, For distributed audio, I think this would be less of a problem. You are not trying to produce movie peaks with this system.

That's one train of thought.


I'm sure most speaker designers from Linkwitz, Revel, KEF, TAD, Focal, Dynaudio, Salk/Phil, and many, many others would disagree because their speakers are 85-90dB/2.83v/m sensitive, not 100-105dB/2.83/m.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23365032


That's one train of thought.


I'm sure most speaker designers from Linkwitz, Revel, KEF, TAD, Focal, Dynaudio, Salk/Phil, and many, many others would disagree because their speakers are 85-90dB/2.83v/m sensitive, not 100-105dB/2.83/m.

I think they would all prefer if their speakers were more sensitive though. The main reason sensitivity is low is because they manually pad down output on the crossover because the individual drive units all have different sensitivity specs--you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
 

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For me it would be klipsch hands down, even if the klipsch specs are a little generous they wouldn't be as abysmal as 86db sensitive. I'd like my speakers to hit reference without distorting and or melting.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23365032


That's one train of thought.


I'm sure most speaker designers from Linkwitz, Revel, KEF, TAD, Focal, Dynaudio, Salk/Phil, and many, many others would disagree because their speakers are 85-90dB/2.83v/m sensitive, not 100-105dB/2.83/m.

Some thing I should have added. Power handling comes into play. On cheaper low sensitivity speakers, you often get to their power handling limits early. In other words, throwing a larger amp on them is not going to do much. For some of the speakers that you listed, it will do a lot because these speakers can handle more power. As for high sensitivity. That has never been clearly defined. I think most people would agree a 100db sensitive speaker as high sensitivity, but many would consider 95db as high sensitivity. I consider 94 /95db as the starting point for high sensitivity. I like a speaker to have the capability of clean reference level peaks. Higher sensitivity makes it easier, but that is not the only way to get there. The KEF Blade lists 117db max SPL. If that is for one speaker at one meter, then it would be able to do clean reference in my room. Would take some power to do so, but power is pretty cheap these days.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23365419


Some thing I should have added. Power handling comes into play. On cheaper low sensitivity speakers, you often get to their power handling limits early. In other words, throwing a larger amp on them is not going to do much. For some of the speakers that you listed, it will do a lot because these speakers can handle more power. As for high sensitivity. That has never been clearly defined. I think most people would agree a 100db sensitive speaker as high sensitivity, but many would consider 95db as high sensitivity. I consider 94 /95db as the starting point for high sensitivity. I like a speaker to have the capability of clean reference level peaks. Higher sensitivity makes it easier, but that is not the only way to get there. The KEF Blade lists 117db max SPL. If that is for one speaker at one meter, then it would be able to do clean reference in my room. Would take some power to do so, but power is pretty cheap these days.

KEF list the 201/2 bookshelf as 110dB Max SPL & sensitivity of 86dB/2.83v/m.


So you don't need a sensitivity of 95dB to reach high SPL.


The Klipsch KL650 has a measured sensitivity of 92dB/2.83v/m, yet it can also output THX reference level.


Speaker engineering is about compromise. There's a good reason we don't see any confirmed 3rd party listening window frequency response measurement of +/-1dB, 2dB, or even 3dB from speakers with a measured sensitivity of 95dB/2.83v/m.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23366429


KEF list the 201/2 bookshelf as 110dB Max SPL & sensitivity of 86dB/2.83v/m.


So you don't need a sensitivity of 95dB to reach high SPL.


The Klipsch KL650 has a measured sensitivity of 92dB/2.83v/m, yet it can also output THX reference level.


Speaker engineering is about compromise. There's a good reason we don't see any confirmed 3rd party listening window frequency response measurement of +/-1dB, 2dB, or even 3dB from speakers with a measured sensitivity of 95dB/2.83v/m.

Doesn't a speaker with 86dB sensitivity need something like 250 watts to hit 110dBs? So why would KEF recommend an amplifier for these speakers that is "50-150 watts" ? I'm confused.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23367042


Doesn't a speaker with 86dB sensitivity need something like 250 watts to hit 110dBs? So why would KEF recommend an amplifier for these speakers that is "50-150 watts" ? I'm confused.

Probably because they don't want you to hit 110dB per speaker.



From 3m, 143 WPC could produce 98dB/speaker or 101dB/2 speakers and that's probably about as high as they want. Add subs capable of 115dB from 20Hz-80Hz and that adds up to VERY LOUD TOTAL SPL.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88  /t/1474651/klipsch-vs-revel#post_23367042


Doesn't a speaker with 86dB sensitivity need something like 250 watts to hit 110dBs? So why would KEF recommend an amplifier for these speakers that is "50-150 watts" ? I'm confused.
That's probably the minimum power recommendation. Since they claim a maximum output of 110dB that would indicate a thermal limit of 350w, though the actual thermal limit is curiously absent from their website. IMO the distortion level at 110dB from a speaker of that size would be nasty in any event.
 
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