[audioexcels]

Curious if any have any thoughts about the 5080 with regular standard coax feed from satellite and how it looks by comparison to any other plasma on the market. A lot of what I watch is hockey and it is broadcast pretty poorly in standard definition. Just curious what to expect for standard definition.


Next thing is looking into the future...


Person that reviewed the 9G sets at CES said their is an 80 percent increase in black levels and overall, an 80% increase in performance over the 8G set on display. He commented how the breakthrough with the 8G sets vs. the 7G sets is dramatic, and I know many hear agree that the 8G sets are a "major" leap over the 7G sets. Will we be seeing the same kind of massive leap with the 9G sets or can we expect to see relatively similar sets, with a bit of an increase in the PQ of the 9G sets?


Given what has been said about the 9G sets, is now the time to get an 8G set or is it best to wait it out? Curious if waiting it out will be worth it for such "dramatic" increase in PQ or if the difference will not be what all has been said.


Thanks for your help on this one. I'm just about to go for the Kuro 8G set, but I need to be sure.

 

[Zinthar]

There is always newer and better technology around the corner. After the 9G, Pioneer's 10G might include the theoretically infinite contrast ratio (from having 0.000 ftL blacks), and then you'll have an even bigger leap. And by then, 10 lumen tech will mean lower power consumption and better brightness and white detail. And then a year after that, maybe OLED will start coming on strong and getting cheaper and completely destroy the PQ of all plasmas.


D-Nice is probably the only one able to fully answer your 9G specific questions. But from what I understand of it, Pioneer may be foregoing all of their 768p sets for the 9th gen (not sure if they'll have a 5090? Can anyone confirm this), so they may be moving further into the niche market.

 

[sonyfan]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinthar /forum/post/12853720


And then a year after that, maybe OLED will start coming on strong and getting cheaper and completely destroy the PQ of all plasmas.

from the little I've read about Sony's OLED will completely destroy ALL displays. no wonder Sony bailed from making Plasmas and now RPTVs. I think they are just trying to keep the name plate alive via LCD until OLED is ready for prime time.

 

[Nambit]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan /forum/post/12854056


from the little I've read about Sony's OLED will completely destroy ALL displays. no wonder Sony bailed from making Plasmas and now RPTVs. I think they are just trying to keep the name plate alive via LCD until OLED is ready for prime time.

Sony are not the only ones with OLED, and even then, they can't produce a panel large enough to use, yet. Also, I recall seeing Sony plasmas and they

were pretty terrible! They had to bail because, well, they just plain old sucked. They are doing okay in the LCD field, but it's disputable if their LCDs are

the best. I haven't been following on things but Samsung and Toshiba seem to be the ones pushing LCD's ahead, while Sony is in for the ride.


What worries me about OLED is some of the comments I read regarding their rate of degradation. Not sure if I read right, but it didn't look promising. We

also don't know what weaknesses may exist (eg: we know plasma can have image retention, LCDs can have clouds and motion artifacts, etc). This

could be said for just about any new technology, but when it comes to TVs, it's quite the expensive risk. Factor in the SONY brand, and we can be

dealing with two-fold expensiveness. I'm still interested in OLED just as much as the next guy, but I gotta admit, the current technology is still doing

well in advancing.


For me, the big challenge is *CONTENT*. HD broadcasts shouldn't be at a premium down the road, and this format war has *GOT* to end. I don't think

the transfer to HD media is as good as it could be, partially because it's still quite the investment for a studio to consider a release. There are still way

too many artifacts and such on releases, both for HD-DVD and BLU-RAY. Regular movies should look as good as the animated stuff but the closest thing

is still James Bond. Because of this, many people are looking to their TVs to narrow the gap in PQ. Notice how a HD broadcast of a football game looks

amazing on just about any TV? That's how things should be.

 

[audioexcels]

Thanks Nambit. I think everyone including D-nice are on their weekend breaks

.

 

[xrox]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit /forum/post/12854122


What worries me about OLED is some of the comments I read regarding their rate of degradation. Not sure if I read right, but it didn't look promising. We

also don't know what weaknesses may exist (eg: we know plasma can have image retention, LCDs can have clouds and motion artifacts, etc).

My thoughts (and industry thoughts for that matter) on OLED change daily. Mostly because PDP and LCD are improving so rapidly. With PDP 10-lumen tech, ultra thin, and zero luminence, OLED benefits are shrinking, but currently here are the benefits and drawbacks with respect to next gen PDPs IMO.


Drawbacks:

-Cost

-IR and BI (due to aging and charge trapping)

-Mura/uniformity (due to current based driving)

-Blurring (due to long duty cycle)


Benefits:

- color (due to EL materials and no PWM driving)

- brightness

- flicker (due to long duty cycles)

- bright room contrast due to black electrode designs

 

[Detox]

Ok so no one is touching your question on Standard Definition so I will (I recently bought the 5080).


The Pioneer probably handles SD better than most PDP. But it's not that it handles SD well, it's that it handles it better than the other plasmas. Catch my picture?


Occassionally I do seem to get a decent broadcast that looks like my old CRT, but for the most part if it's not in HD, I won't be watching it, too painful.


Unless it's a REALLY big game.

 

[audioexcels]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Detox /forum/post/12859138


Ok so no one is touching your question on Standard Definition so I will (I recently bought the 5080).


The Pioneer probably handles SD better than most PDP. But it's not that it handles SD well, it's that it handles it better than the other plasmas. Catch my picture?


Occassionally I do seem to get a decent broadcast that looks like my old CRT, but for the most part if it's not in HD, I won't be watching it, too painful.


Unless it's a REALLY big game.

Yeah....I seem to spin threads into OLED discussions

What are your thoughts on this new 9G technology and if it will indeed surpass the 8G technology to the same extent that the 8G surpassed the 7G tech?


Cheers and thanks!

 

[xb1032]



Quote:
Originally Posted by audioexcels /forum/post/12859388


Yeah....I seem to spin threads into OLED discussions

What are your thoughts on this new 9G technology and if it will indeed surpass the 8G technology to the same extent that the 8G surpassed the 7G tech?


Cheers and thanks!

No ones thought here really matter much as we haven't seen the 9Gs

. But I think the 80% increase was specifically directed at black levels. Until you watch in a darkened room (unless the glass is tinted more) you'll probably only see a very small difference. The 80% increase will likely be when you watch in a darkened room.


I still haven't heard any official word to say if the 9Gs will be brighter than the 8Gs. My fingers are crossed!

 

[johnnybrulez]



Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 /forum/post/12859752


No ones thought here really matter much as we haven't seen the 9Gs

. But I think the 80% increase was specifically directed at black levels. Until you watch in a darkened room (unless the glass is tinted more) you'll probably only see a very small difference. The 80% increase will likely be when you watch in a darkened room.


I still haven't heard any official word to say if the 9Gs will be brighter than the 8Gs. My fingers are crossed!

So if there is a brightness bump... You're upgrading again?

 

[16x9enhanced]

I thought the press release said NO new Kuros anytime commercially in 2008. Is that right? I mean it's going to be quite a wait for new models right?

 

[audioexcels]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 16x9enhanced /forum/post/12860305


I thought the press release said NO new Kuros anytime commercially in 2008. Is that right? I mean it's going to be quite a wait for new models right?

I just read the report and they said the 9G panels to be released sometime likely around the same time the 8G's were released in 2007. So about another 8 months or so?

 

[6SpeedTA95]

I've read mixed things about the 9G. I've read that it will be just the 8G with visual changes...I've also read that some of their new black improvements will be implemented. Black levels of .001 to .002 instead of the current .004 to .008. That is a substantial change but would only be noticable in a dark room. The current KURO's are so black that with fairly low amounts of ambient light it looks totally black.


Keep in mind that these coming improvements are a great thing I'm all for it but there's only so much that the human eye can perceive. I believe the static contrast limitations of the average human eye is just over 10,000:1, the KURO is already there with some content and has measured around 3500:1 on the ANSI checkerboard...a damn impressive number. Cutting black levels to the point they are claiming would result in something between 7000 and 14000:1 on this same test. The latter of course being beyond what the human eye can perceive.


Furthermore this ANSI checkerboard typically makes plasma numbers less than they would be in typical film content due to the way plasma power supplies limit current (which as a result limits the brightness of the panel). So while these changes are definately good they'd likely only be noticable in low and no light conditions.

 

[audioexcels]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 /forum/post/12863095


I've read mixed things about the 9G. I've read that it will be just the 8G with visual changes...I've also read that some of their new black improvements will be implemented. Black levels of .001 to .002 instead of the current .004 to .008. That is a substantial change but would only be noticable in a dark room. The current KURO's are so black that with fairly low amounts of ambient light it looks totally black.


Keep in mind that these coming improvements are a great thing I'm all for it but there's only so much that the human eye can perceive. I believe the static contrast limitations of the average human eye is just over 10,000:1, the KURO is already there with some content and has measured around 3500:1 on the ANSI checkerboard...a damn impressive number. Cutting black levels to the point they are claiming would result in something between 7000 and 14000:1 on this same test. The latter of course being beyond what the human eye can perceive.


Furthermore this ANSI checkerboard typically makes plasma numbers less than they would be in typical film content due to the way plasma power supplies limit current (which as a result limits the brightness of the panel). So while these changes are definately good they'd likely only be noticable in low and no light conditions.

I think it's good to also note what is considered to be a black room or a dimly lit room that we are watching the set in. Does a dull light above along with close to no light around the tv qualify as a dark room?


Just saw the Samsung in store again and after fine tuning it, on a standard definition feed, it is superior to anything I have seen with either my Panasonic 77U or 700U sets. I don't know why and I don't know how I could make a picture look "much better" just doing quick dial ins without any knowledge of the set's built in features, but I have never seen any SD content with either Panasonic show this level of sharpness and also color accuracy. The Panasonic "may" have better black levels, but that's irrelevent to me after seeing what the Samsung can do for sharpness/color/overall presentation.


Sorry to be a little off course, but I am curious more about your opinion regarding black levels and what exactly is referred to when speaking of lighting conditions (Under candelight, no lights at all, a night light on, a small lamp on, etc. etc...many conditions can take place to have a "dark" room).


Best!

 

[6SpeedTA95]

A calibrated 71 and sony XBR have black levels on par with panasonic's plasmas. Both have recorded black levels in the .014 and .018 range. Right in there with panasonic so I do not find what you're saying to be unreasonable at all.



If you have lights close to the tv or slightly behind the tv that makes it harder to discern the darker blacks. You'll find that a few people on the board put a dim light behind their set, this makes the blacks appear darker than they really are increasing the perceived contrast of the set.

 

[gus738]

like the op i too am thinking of getting this set, to say the least is it due to the fact of picture quality and i currently have a panasonic 42'' TH-42PX75u 720p plasma, So reason why im holding back? i saw how cnet stated while the pio 5080 may have the best blacks and what not it does NOT do well in color accurcy therefore defeats the purpose of my upgrade between my curren panny TH-42px75u to the pionner PDP-5080. currently the pio is on the lowest price from bb while this price is already the reg price of the 42'' version their is a coupon flying around the net for an addtional 12% off which brings it to a even cheaper price then what the 42'' is on sale!


but despite the price sale is the change a dramatic diffrence or its more of my cash going away then its noticeable?

 

[audioexcels]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 /forum/post/12863515


A calibrated 71 and sony XBR have black levels on par with panasonic's plasmas. Both have recorded black levels in the .014 and .018 range. Right in there with panasonic so I do not find what you're saying to be unreasonable at all.



If you have lights close to the tv or slightly behind the tv that makes it harder to discern the darker blacks. You'll find that a few people on the board put a dim light behind their set, this makes the blacks appear darker than they really are increasing the perceived contrast of the set.

Very interesting about putting a light behind the set. I'm going to try this tonight and see how it does.


The Samsung I actually tweeked to look better than what I am seeing with my Panasonic 700U which is superior than the 77U I replaced (all my opinion from personal use) was the 720P plasma, the 4254. I am pretty certain the Panasonic has quite darker black levels, but all other things considered, I just do not see the other attributes of the Samsung in the Panasonic. I want very badly to have the 700U produce an equally sharp image, with better colors, but it doesn't to my eyes. I don't want to say the Panasonic is a bad plasma, but it's just not a $2000 set and I don't even think it is in the same category as the Samsung for accuracy w/exception of black level which I do not find all that attractive with these panels (fine black level, but blacks aren't exactly what I "subjectively" would consider "solid/concrete/stable/accurate" blacks). I'm sure the Kuro, which I will see tomorrow, will enable me to see what a real black is supposed to look like. I will be finding a store with good lighting to see the blacks of the Kuro.

 

[xb1032]



Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrulez /forum/post/12860139


So if there is a brightness bump... You're upgrading again?

If the PQ is significantly better and finances are sound then yes(assuming the prices are at least a little better than the current models). Even though black levels are MUCH better I am still distracted by black levels not being dark enough in dark scenes. And since I got into plasma I'm distracted by inadequate brightness. The more you get into this as a hobby the more flaws you notice. I'd really like a bigger TV but I'm going to likely stay in the 60" range until I can make it count when black levels have reached perfection.

 

[Zinthar]



Quote:
Originally Posted by audioexcels /forum/post/12864315


Very interesting about putting a light behind the set. I'm going to try this tonight and see how it does.


The Samsung I actually tweeked to look better than what I am seeing with my Panasonic 700U which is superior than the 77U I replaced (all my opinion from personal use) was the 720P plasma, the 4254. I am pretty certain the Panasonic has quite darker black levels, but all other things considered, I just do not see the other attributes of the Samsung in the Panasonic. I want very badly to have the 700U produce an equally sharp image, with better colors, but it doesn't to my eyes. I don't want to say the Panasonic is a bad plasma, but it's just not a $2000 set and I don't even think it is in the same category as the Samsung for accuracy w/exception of black level which I do not find all that attractive with these panels (fine black level, but blacks aren't exactly what I "subjectively" would consider "solid/concrete/stable/accurate" blacks). I'm sure the Kuro, which I will see tomorrow, will enable me to see what a real black is supposed to look like. I will be finding a store with good lighting to see the blacks of the Kuro.

The Panasonics suffer in ambient light conditions compared to other plasmas.


You really need to see them in the dark to get a true feel for what they're capable of.


I asked some ISF calibrators for their opinion on the 75U series vs. the Samsung 54's and not a singe one would recommend picking up the Samsung. There's a certain point where you just have to trust that what you see on the showroom floor of a bright B&M store is not going to equate to similar PQ when you get it in your home. Certainly under darker conditions, the Panasonics crush the Samsungs.

 

[Zinthar]



Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 /forum/post/12864645


If the PQ is significantly better and finances are sound then yes(assuming the prices are at least a little better than the current models). Even though black levels are MUCH better I am still distracted by black levels not being dark enough in dark scenes. And since I got into plasma I'm distracted by inadequate brightness. The more you get into this as a hobby the more flaws you notice. I'd really like a bigger TV but I'm going to likely stay in the 60" range until I can make it count when black levels have reached perfection.

Then you should probably just wait -- brightness will probably improved in a major way in the next 2 years. Kuro's are brilliant plasmas, but bright they are not (even compared to other plasmas).