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LaVoce SAF184.03 18 Or 21" `

8339 Views 24 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  harrisu, 
H
I did a build thread a while ago for NF sub using PA460. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2980048-pa460-8-18-nearfield-sub-build-newbie.html. All came out ok but I didn't really get to use it much. Have been using 2 UXL-18 in Mini Marty. Very recently, I came across this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3076210-b-c-21ds115-4-21-vs-lavoce-san214-50-21-a.html that is discussion how well the pro subwoofers sound. After reading it, I got very curious and wanted to try pro sub driver. I already have PA460. So I decided to give it a shot. Calibrated my system with sub that I built for NF using PA and tried it out. LOVEEDDDDD how well the Mid-Bass sounded. Music sounded very good. Please note that I tried my best to EQ PA exactly how I did with UXL but since I have 2 UXL vs 1 PA, the FR wasn't as good as I had with UXL. Anyway, my little experiment got me super excited to really go ahead with Pro drivers.

Now, from the top of line, we have LaVoce SAN214.50 21". We also have B&C 21DS115-4 21" but in the thread mentioned above, it seems like LaVoce SAN214.50 21 delivers pretty much the same as B&C but with less cost. So ideally, I should just get LaVoce SAN214.50 21. The issue is that I'd need a box for them then. Devastator from John aka @LTD02 seems like the best fit but that'd cost me like around 950.00 + shipment for get it here in NJ. I already have 2 Mini Marty from GSG. Wouldn't it be great if I can just swap my UXL with LaVoce SAF184.03 18? So here comes my question
What's that main difference b/w using LaVoce SAN214.50 21 VS LaVoce SAF184.03 18? Please note that I'm not planning to run my system like 20dB hot. The most I"ll go is 12dB. Most likely 9dB for the most part. Also, I don't need anything below 20Hz since I use BOSS https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/2991522-hideaway-theater.html and it does a very good job to provide all the TR I need in low 20. I am on suspended floor and with 10dB hot, I get very decent TR across.

So it comes down to
LaVoce SAF184.03 18 In Mini Marty VS LaVoce SAN214.50 21 in Devastator to play 12dB loud max.
Note: I'm using INuke dsp 6000.
Room: 23x12x8 sealed.

@hd0823 is using B&C 21DS115-4 21 in a devastator along with his other subs and seems to be very satisfied but then he runs his system 20+db hot :D. @eng-399, would it be possible to mode these drivers and see what one has to loose if using LaVoce SAF184.03 18 In Mini Marty VS LaVoce SAN214.50 21 in Devastator to play 12dB loud?
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hd0823
harrisu said:
I did a build thread a while ago for NF sub using PA460. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...48-pa460-8-18-nearfield-sub-build-newbie.html. All came out ok but I didn't really get to use it much. Have been using 2 UXL-18 in Mini Marty. Very recently, I came across this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-...-c-21ds115-4-21-vs-lavoce-san214-50-21-a.html that is discussion how well the pro subwoofers sound. After reading it, I got very curious and wanted to try pro sub driver. I already have PA460. So I decided to give it a shot. Calibrated my system with sub that I built for NF using PA and tried it out. LOVEEDDDDD how well the Mid-Bass sounded. Music sounded very good. Please note that I tried my best to EQ PA exactly how I did with UXL but since I have 2 UXL vs 1 PA, the FR wasn't as good as I had with UXL. Anyway, my little experiment got me super excited to really go ahead with Pro drivers.



Now, from the top of line, we have LaVoce SAN214.50 21". We also have B&C 21DS115-4 21" but in the thread mentioned above, it seems like LaVoce SAN214.50 21 delivers pretty much the same as B&C but with less cost. So ideally, I should just get LaVoce SAN214.50 21. The issue is that I'd need a box for them then. Devastator from John aka @LTD02 seems like the best fit but that'd cost me like around 950.00 + shipment for get it here in NJ. I already have 2 Mini Marty from GSG. Wouldn't it be great if I can just swap my UXL with LaVoce SAF184.03 18? So here comes my question

What's that main difference b/w using LaVoce SAN214.50 21 VS LaVoce SAF184.03 18? Please note that I'm not planning to run my system like 20dB hot. The most I"ll go is 12dB. Most likely 9dB for the most part. Also, I don't need anything below 20Hz since I use BOSS https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-d...gn-construction/2991522-hideaway-theater.html and it does a very good job to provide all the TR I need in low 20. I am on suspended floor and with 10dB hot, I get very decent TR across.



So it comes down to

LaVoce SAF184.03 18 In Mini Marty VS LaVoce SAN214.50 21 in Devastator to play 12dB loud max.

Note: I'm using INuke dsp 6000.

Room: 23x12x8 sealed.



@hd0823 is using B&C 21DS115-4 21 in a devastator along with his other subs and seems to be very satisfied but then he runs his system 20+db hot :D. @eng-399, would it be possible to mode these drivers and see what one has to loose if using LaVoce SAF184.03 18 In Mini Marty VS LaVoce SAN214.50 21 in Devastator to play 12dB loud?
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I say do the 21 in lavoce In the devastator and build it yourself there really no harder to build than a ported box much easier than the other horns plus only takes 2 sheets of wood with MDF a tad over 2 with plywood I promise you wont be disappointed and I would message @Red Five he has the devastator model already and has been tinkering with the 18in lavoce in smaller designs

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H
Any source with easy instructions on how to build Devastator? Images are much easier to follow. LTD02 does it very well. He provided me the instructions for NF box and was easy to build
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hd0823
harrisu said:
Any source with easy instructions on how to build Devastator? Images are much easier to follow. LTD02 does it very well. He provided me the instructions for NF box and was easy to build
Click to expand...
If you need some help shoot me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call and send some pics of the order I went in. It really honestly was no harder than my cyclops I built.

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MKtheater
What mains do you run?
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H
hd0823 said:
If you need some help shoot me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call and send some pics of the order I went in. It really honestly was no harder than my cyclops I built.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Will do thx.
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H
MKtheater said:
What mains do you run?
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JBL 4722N https://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-2-way/4722_4722n#.XXRI5ChKj18
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MKtheater
Those 15s can do the same thing, just shape the response like hot subs and cross them over at 40hz to your uxls, or add more uxls or 24s. You already have pro woofers than do what you need.
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H
MKtheater said:
Those 15s can do the same thing, just shape the response like hot subs and cross them over at 40hz to your uxls, or add more uxls or 24s. You already have pro woofers than do what you need.
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I have done all this. I use Dirac which allows me to do define a custom curve. Unfortunately, my room on the front doesn't do well. Major peaks and dips. Doing so made the bass muddier. I also use REW so its not een like, I set teh crossover and done. I tweak teh delas to make sure I have proper crossover with nodips/peaks. minidsp 88a Dirac also has Bass Management which allows me to set any slope I want (BW, LW). Have done it all. But using UXL18 with Mini Marties + Mains couldn't get me the Midbass cleaness I got with PA460 right away. I mean I didn't have to do anything. Took a quick calibration, ran REW to make sure all is fine and played music and I was woowwww. What an amazing Midbass. Now this box that I'm using with PA460 is a small one and was built for NF so it really doesn't do much for low frequencies. UXL18 are amazing in low frequencies. They arn't bad with mid bass. No Sir. But PA460 just sounds crispier and resonated my in chest more. I use 100 crossover with BW24.
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MKtheater
Well, the NF removes the room which you can't do with the speakers. I would try everything I could to fix my room to get those mains to work better with major EQ. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Here is what two 15s can do compared to the dayton. You have the potential.
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H
MKtheater said:
Well, the NF removes the room which you can't do with the speakers. I would try everything I could to fix my room to get those mains to work better with major EQ. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Here is what two 15s can do compared to the dayton. You have the potential.
Click to expand...
May be I confused you a bit. The box was built to be used as NF but I am not using it at NF. Its sitting exactly where one of my Mini Marty was. Its 65" away from MLP.
How do you EQ Mains? Dirac does all that for me but may be if FR is flattened using EQ even before Dirac gets to it can yield better results.
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MKtheater
Do you run the subs hot? Whatever spl or how hot you run the subs the frequency of the each front speaker needs to be as hot in the same frequency range.
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H
2
MKtheater said:
Do you run the subs hot? Whatever spl or how hot you run the subs the frequency of the each front speaker needs to be as hot in the same frequency range.
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I run my subs 7dB hot minimum with a house curve. Yes have done all that you mentioned. In fact, here is the curve just to show you. Not posting Sub curve but it follows the same but up to 400Hz. As I said, I have done all that. If you head to minidsp 88a main thread, you'll notice that this is the basic guideline. Anyway, even after doing all that, what I got out of using PA460 in the box I built for NF + 1 Mini Marty with UXL18 is much better. Trust me. I have done all that and tweaked the system a lot. I even have front wall with treated with 4" 703. Have side panels, have had ceiling panels. Have done all that and tried all different variations. At the end of all that, I like the combo of 460+uxl for now. Therefore, I think 2 Devastators with Lacose 21 would do really well in my room.

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MKtheater
I understand, trust me, I have done so many things like that myself just manual EQ. Just curious on why the single 18 would have more impact than the capable 15s which could play louder. Is that curve the mains and uxl? What crossover? What crossover with the PA? I am not doubting what you prefer, just curious. I am sure two devastators would be better than the pa with 21s loaded in them.
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MKtheater said:
I understand, trust me, I have done so many things like that myself just manual EQ. Just curious on why the single 18 would have more impact than the capable 15s which could play louder. Is that curve the mains and uxl? What crossover? What crossover with the PA? I am not doubting what you prefer, just curious. I am sure two devastators would be better than the pa with 21s loaded in them.
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No worries. This curve is for the mains. The curve for Sub is exactly the same. The only difference is that for sub, it extends up to 400Hz and for mains up to 20K. For all my subs, I do 100 CO using BW24. Mains are also using BW24.

I still have to do some more listening with PA460 for movies. For music, hands down absolutely amazing. May be because the current box doesn't have much for low end, it doesn't produce as intense low bass. I'm very sure that with 21" Lavoce in Devastator, it will be awesome. Now I just a good step by step guide on how to build Devastator. Main thread has the cut list but don't think it goes in good details about how to build it. Anyone????
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hd0823 said:
If you need some help shoot me a PM with your number and I'll give you a call and send some pics of the order I went in. It really honestly was no harder than my cyclops I built.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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don't forget to send me the pics :rolleyes:
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H
Since, I have no experience in designing the boxes, can someone tell me what would happen if PA460 is put in Mini Marty? I think based on certain parameters, WinISD defines the dimension of the box. So, if someone can model and show what would happen if PA460 is put in a mini marty?

Plus, I have decided to build devastator and use Lavoce 21" with it. I"ll start out a build thread as well to get/share all the info I can :)
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L
2
You should keep both sets of subs in your setup IMO. Unless you lack the space of course but some PA subs and some HT subs mixed I bet would give you the best of both worlds so to speak. I would agree the HT subs only wake up when they are really cranked up. I found my commercially purchases smaller subs have more output in the higher registers than my 18's do 1 to 1 which is why I have many 18's to compensate.

Im no sub designer expert but you can model those 21's in a smallish 8 cubs ported enclosure. Look at Powersound audios new line of subs they are basically doing just that. Taking the B&C drivers in a 8 or 16 cubed box ported nothing to fancy. I was running some models in WinISD for a standard slot ported box 8 cubs and the 21 easily out performed the 18's 20hz and less and after 40ish hz by 10db.

The lavoce 21 vs a HST18III both in a 8 cubed box tuned to 18 hz which is basically your mini marty. The HST I gave it 2200 watts vs 1200 on the Lavoce. Granted if you put the Lavoce in a bigger box you do get way more output. Second ones in a 16 cube box with all things else the save as before. Good bump in output.

All that said I dont know how to model the devestator bandpass type box. But I do know band passes are nuts I have a 10" band pass sub I got eons ago and its insane how loud it is. Rather "one note" ish but its also a cheap sub I assume the devastator have a much better overall sound.

and as far as the two drivers. They model almost the same with the Lavoce being slightly better overall. Only downside is the OHM if your using a inuke like 99% of people are myself included. Its 3db you loose. Not a lot right?...well a second subs gets you about 3 db more so just think of that when you factor the 100$ extra in cost. Figure you do two $200 more but your at 6+db extra now just saying if that helps you make a decision.

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lemonslush said:
You should keep both sets of subs in your setup IMO. Unless you lack the space of course but some PA subs and some HT subs mixed I bet would give you the best of both worlds so to speak. I would agree the HT subs only wake up when they are really cranked up. I found my commercially purchases smaller subs have more output in the higher registers than my 18's do 1 to 1 which is why I have many 18's to compensate.

Im no sub designer expert but you can model those 21's in a smallish 8 cubs ported enclosure. Look at Powersound audios new line of subs they are basically doing just that. Taking the B&C drivers in a 8 or 16 cubed box ported nothing to fancy. I was running some models in WinISD for a standard slot ported box 8 cubs and the 21 easily out performed the 18's 20hz and less and after 40ish hz by 10db.

The lavoce 21 vs a HST18III both in a 8 cubed box tuned to 18 hz which is basically your mini marty. The HST I gave it 2200 watts vs 1200 on the Lavoce. Granted if you put the Lavoce in a bigger box you do get way more output. Second ones in a 16 cube box with all things else the save as before. Good bump in output.

All that said I dont know how to model the devestator bandpass type box. But I do know band passes are nuts I have a 10" band pass sub I got eons ago and its insane how loud it is. Rather "one note" ish but its also a cheap sub I assume the devastator have a much better overall sound.

and as far as the two drivers. They model almost the same with the Lavoce being slightly better overall. Only downside is the OHM if your using a inuke like 99% of people are myself included. Its 3db you loose. Not a lot right?...well a second subs gets you about 3 db more so just think of that when you factor the 100$ extra in cost. Figure you do two $200 more but your at 6+db extra now just saying if that helps you make a decision.
Click to expand...
Hey, thx for jumping in. Yeah space is an issue. I can shove the Mini boxes on the front but then that moves L/R completely in the corners. Also the response is not good at the front of room. So best is to keep 2 subs at the back of room. As for mixing PA with UXL, well I did do the experiment. I swapped one of Mini Marty box with PA and calibrated the system with all together 2 Mini Marty (1 with UXL and 1 with PSA). I sounds really good. I get the punchiness of PA and low end of UXL. Its a great mix. Sounds better than 2 UXL in Mini Marty.

As for loosing 3dB with Lavoce, well I agree that loosing 3dB basically means another sub. True very true but let's see. 2 Devastators using Lavoce21 will provide more than enough bass for my room. I really don't think that I'll push them above their limit. I ran my sytem 7dB hot the other day I was demoing PA+UXL combo in Mini Marty using Mad Max and felt like it was very decent bass. I use BOSS for TR below 25Hz so I really don't need these subs to push out tons of low frequencies. Even if I run my system like 14-15dB hot, I won't be pushing them to their max limit. Would you agree? 15dB is really the max I can think of utilizing if I did.

Plus here is a post that discusses 4 vs 8 ohms with INuke6000
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3076210-b-c-21ds115-4-21-vs-lavoce-san214-50-21-a.html#post58248294

Seems like I should be ok with Lavoce21 :)
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chadsmith013
harrisu said:
Hey, thx for jumping in. Yeah space is an issue. I can shove the Mini boxes on the front but then that moves L/R completely in the corners. Also the response is not good at the front of room. So best is to keep 2 subs at the back of room. As for mixing PA with UXL, well I did do the experiment. I swapped one of Mini Marty box with PA and calibrated the system with all together 2 Mini Marty (1 with UXL and 1 with PSA). I sounds really good. I get the punchiness of PA and low end of UXL. Its a great mix. Sounds better than 2 UXL in Mini Marty.

As for loosing 3dB with Lavoce, well I agree that loosing 3dB basically means another sub. True very true but let's see. 2 Devastators using Lavoce21 will provide more than enough bass for my room. I really don't think that I'll push them above their limit. I ran my sytem 7dB hot the other day I was demoing PA+UXL combo in Mini Marty using Mad Max and felt like it was very decent bass. I use BOSS for TR below 25Hz so I really don't need these subs to push out tons of low frequencies. Even if I run my system like 14-15dB hot, I won't be pushing them to their max limit. Would you agree? 15dB is really the max I can think of utilizing if I did.

Plus here is a post that discusses 4 vs 8 ohms with INuke6000
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3076210-b-c-21ds115-4-21-vs-lavoce-san214-50-21-a.html#post58248294

Seems like I should be ok with Lavoce21 :)
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absolutely will....
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