[johnsmith808]

Are those accurate statements for lcd's and dlp's in the same price range? I'm talking lcd's such as the Panny ax100, Sanyo Z5, Sony hs51a versus dlp's like Mits hc3000, Sharp DT-500/vxz3000.


Does that mean that lcd's can produce the lowest all black image while Dlp's will be slightly brighter on an all black image?


How much of an ANSI advantage does dlp have over lcd?

 

[johnsmith808]

Anyone? I keep hearing on is better than the other when it comes to blacks. It's confusing me to death.

 

[tbcar]

LCD does not produce true blacks and shadow detail is lacking as compared to DLP.


LCD PJs starting at the cheapest ones have larger zoom ranges, keystone corrections, and lens shift features that DLP just don't have.


To get the above stuff on a DLP PJ you will spend no less than 2500 and to match it all even more than that.


DLP produce better true blacks and shadow details.


Nothing produces blacks like a CRT PJ. If you have the money get yourself a old Sony G90.

 

[KeithfromCanada]



Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith808 /forum/post/0


Are those accurate statements for lcd's and dlp's in the same price range? I'm talking lcd's such as the Panny ax100, Sanyo Z5, Sony hs51a versus dlp's like Mits hc3000, Sharp DT-500/vxz3000.


Does that mean that lcd's can produce the lowest all black image while Dlp's will be slightly brighter on an all black image?


How much of an ANSI advantage does dlp have over lcd?

Here is my first hand experience taken from my viewing the Sanyo Z5, Panny AX100 and the Mits 3000 (I posted a review of the three if you care to search for it):


On an all or mostly black scene, a low cost LCD will produce a deeper black than a low cost DLP (using Dark Chip 2). This is due to the dynamic iris that closes down and limits the amount of light that passes through the lens (I recognize that the Mits also uses an iris but the blacks were not as deep as on the Z5 on all/mostly black scenes during my viewing).


On scenes where there is a combination of bright and black, the black level on the LCD will lighten. On DLP, the black level remains constant. Is this a huge difference during normal viewing? I personally didn't think so. In fact, I for one didn't even notice the dimming of blacks on the LCD until I went looking for it. During normal movie playback, it appeared seemless to me (but you may notice it).


It is up to the person to determine what trade-offs they are willing to take when purchasing a lower-cost PJ. You owe it to yourself to go and view both technologies and see which you prefer.


NOTE -- I have stated in the past that people around here get caught up in details when they talk about PJ's. You will quickly find that the image thrown by both LCD and DLP is amazing. Only after comparing the two will you begin to see the little differences. When watching a movie or HD broadcast, you should be happy with either.

 

[KeithfromCanada]



Quote:
Originally Posted by tbcar /forum/post/0


LCD does not produce true blacks and shadow detail is lacking as compared to DLP.

I would disagree with that statement somewhat. I found the shadow detail in the Sanyo Z5 to be as good or better than what was offered on the Mits 3000. Call it a personal opinion but I believe that many reviewers concur with what I saw.

 

[CaspianM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by tbcar /forum/post/0


LCD does not produce true blacks and shadow detail is lacking as compared to DLP.


LCD PJs starting at the cheapest ones have larger zoom ranges, keystone corrections, and lens shift features that DLP just don't have.


To get the above stuff on a DLP PJ you will spend no less than 2500 and to match it all even more than that.


DLP produce better true blacks and shadow details.


Nothing produces blacks like a CRT PJ. If you have the money get yourself a old Sony G90.

I agree and disagree with the above statement.

CRT is the best in terms of black level. Also if gamma circuit is added they can have nearly 100's of 1000's of contrast with excellent shadow detail.


Here is some numbers tested by cine4home.com. These are actual measured numbers not opinions:


HC3100- 3000:1 on/off contrast ratio

HC3000- 3400:1 (best case), 2300:1 worse case which is a calibrated value

Sony HS60- 11000:1(best case), 5000:1 worse case/calibrated


These are all with iris in Auto and with iris off numbers are in favor of DLP by 1000:1.

I found that HS60 with iris tweak (simple tweak) it produces very deep black and bright white in cinema mode. When I switch from auto iris to iris off the lumen difference in mixed clips of black and white are not significant so the compromise of using DI (Dynamic Iris) is not significant but still there.

When I watch sports I simply turn The DI off and the lumen is plenty but certainly not a light cannon such as panny AX100 but was told Panny's calibrated value are not that high and in ball park of other lower lumen pj's.

I suggest to buy the technology you like but for me numbers are as important because they represent actuall field performance.

 

[johnsmith808]

Thank you for your replies.


To me, blacks when there is little to no light in a scene is what is most important. The effect of a fade to black scene is very powerful, and on my Benq pe7700, I just couldn't get that effect. Your comments about lcd with it's dynamic iris and other tricks producing the blacker blacks in those low light scenes is consistent with that I read in projector reviews.com's review of the Sanyo Z5. I just had a hard time believing it. Your first hand experiences give me more confidence in that observation.


I am fully aware that I cannot expect crt blacks from digitals, especially at this price point, but I still would like to get as close as possible. I had a crt pj for a little while, but it just wasn't working out for me.


By the way, why are dlp advocates always knocking on lcd's usage of a dynamic iris and other "tricks" to produce black level and contrast? Isn't every technology, especially dlp an optical illusion? Isn't the final result what counts?


KeithfromCanada,

When you say that the lower cost lcd's, such as the Sanyo Z5 or Panasonic ax100 have a lower absolute black level versus Dark chip 2 dlp's, what dlp would you say would have a lower absolute black level than the lcd's mentioned? Are we talking the Optoma 7100 or Benq Pe8720? What about that Sharp xv-z3000? Thanks.

 

[KeithfromCanada]



Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith808 /forum/post/0


KeithfromCanada,

When you say that the lower cost lcd's, such as the Sanyo Z5 or Panasonic ax100 have a lower absolute black level versus Dark chip 2 dlp's, what dlp would you say would have a lower absolute black level than the lcd's mentioned? Are we talking the Optoma 7100 or Benq Pe8720? What about that Sharp xv-z3000? Thanks.

I was comparing the two against the Mits 3000 which has Darkchip2. I've heard (but not yet seen) that Darkchip3 improves on black levels and some of the reviews I've read on the Sharp (PJreviews) rave about the absolute black-level of the Sharp (which is Darkchip2). I'd have to see it before commenting though.

 

[bcarlsen]

Theoretically, DLP should have darker blacks because when a pixel is supposed to be black, the mirror that represents that pixel is not raised and no light shines on the corresponding position on the screen. With LCD, some light always shines on every pixel. But I agree with KeithFromCanada - you should try both technologies before deciding which you like better.


You can also make your blacks darker by using a gray screen.

 

[CaspianM]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bcarlsen /forum/post/0


Theoretically, DLP should have darker blacks because when a pixel is supposed to be black, the mirror that represents that pixel is not raised and no light shines on the corresponding position on the screen. With LCD, some light always shines on every pixel. But I agree with KeithFromCanada - you should try both technologies before deciding which you like better.


You can also make your blacks darker by using a gray screen.

If the DLP under question has a white segment in its CW then that benefit is no longer valid.

Gray screen is meant to reject ambient light and improve ansi CR under that condition. Also gray screen will lower the top lumen as well as black level together resulting in same on/off CR. I personally don't like gray screen but there are fans of gray screen by large numbers..

 

[johnsmith808]

So if I was interested in lowest absolute black level between the Sanyo Z5 or the Sharp xvz3000, which one would it be? I know dlp by it's nature should top the lcd, but the lcd seems to have more tricks up it's sleeve to attain it's lowest black level.

 

[CaspianM]

I have not owned none of them so take my comments with a grain of salt.

I would jump over the Sharp without a second thought.

Sharp has been in HT especially hi end far more and their PJ's are ranked among the best.

I also feel with my limited reading that Sharp has both better ansi and on/off. I also read the Sharp 500 is on the same architecture as 3000 so you may save a penny by going 500.

Sharp is based on DC2 so it is not DC3 but chip is not everything. I think Sharp has taken the most out of DC2. I am interested to read some other opinions as well.

 

[Zoso]

First, this isn't directed specifially to the poster because he seems to know a thing or two about projectors. I'm posting this mainly for any new visitors who might have some questions about contrast and black levels.


Blacks are the "holy grail" of digital projectors. It can happen...the technology is getting there, but it's just not here yet. The JVC DLA-RS1 can supposedly create true blacks, so maybe it's here now...I don't know. Haven't seen the thing in action.


You have to understand that contrast ratio doesn't necessarily represent how black your blacks are, or how white your whites are. It just represents the span between the darkest black you can get from the projector to the whitest white. The higher the contrast ratio, the larger the span.


That's why some LCD projectors have such high contrast ratios. DLP will in most cases give you better blacks. But if the contrast ratio is low, you may not enjoy the picture as much as you would an LCD with moderate blacks and a higher contrast. If you had a projector that produced pitch black blacks, but the whites were somewhat gray, then you could brag all day about how deep the blacks are but you'd still have a dim flat picture because of the lousy contrast and crappy whites!


You never see anybody talking about white levels because of course, these things shoot light....so whites are easy. The problem is getting the light to stop shining where something should be dark or black. This is where DLP has the advantage; by in a sense being able to "turn the pixel off" by pointing the mirror away. LCD pixels simply go dark, but they are transparent and some light always works its way though (these are pretty bright bulbs we're talking about). This is why the more recent LCD projectors use irises to cut light output and improve contrast...but hey...whatever works! As long as I enjoy the picture on the screen I don't care what you do inside the projector!


Anyway, if blacks, longevity, and less screen door are the most important factor in a good projector to you then DLP is probably your better choice. If placement flexability, better colors, and no rainbows are where it's at...go LCD. It's all a trade off. Either way just enjoy what you get and try not to be as nit-picky as we are!

 

[CaspianM]

Native on/off contrast of DLP is about 2000 and LCD is about 1200.

Recent DLP PJ's are also incorporating the DI so it is not limited to LCD any more.

I get about 10 FTL (low lamp mode, dimmest mode with contrast at default onto 96" wide unity gain screen) from my Sony HS51a with DI tweak and has very nice blacks as well. While it is not a very bright PJ it is not dim either.

 

[bubbawilly]

"Better colors" are no longer reserved for LCD. I've experienced good colors on LCD projectors, but much more vibrant colors on DLP.


The highly regarded colors on my Panasonic AE900 appeared muted in comparison to the Sharp z3000. The much lower black level and higher contrast of the Sharp helps the colors stand out, but naturally so. I believe that the added depth and dimension helps to highlight color as well.