[isucamper]

I posted this over in the Xbox area where people were discussing 8ms response times of LCD TVs and I thought that some of you might be interested.




I have been really wanting to get a 1080p fixed pixel LCD display. The newer sets are just stunning with an HD-DVD or BLU-Ray player hooked up to them. However, I am a big gamer, and I wanted to be sure that whatever I buy is able to keep up with what I throw at it.


My biggest concern was motion blur. And I recently hauled my PS2 into Best Buy and did some extensive testing on all the latest LCDs.


For a test subject, I used Timesplitters on the PS2 which is a very old first person shooter. The great thing about it is that it runs at 60 frames per second (a characteritic that is becoming more and more rare these days). The very first level has a bunch of pyramid's with detailed textures on them which makes for a good motion test when rotating the camera around.


Now granted, this is pretty much the worst case scenario. The PS2 puts this game out at 480i, so during this testing, the TVs' upscalers and deinterlacers were put to use. Also, my PS2 was hooked up through component cables.


As a control, I am coming from gaming on a 36 inch HD Sony Tube XBR that I've been using for the past 6 years. When I play Timesplitters on it, I can rotate the camera around and the detail within the textures stays "locked in". That is, the detail does not fade or blur at all. It looks beautiful at a perfect 60 frames per second.


One other thing to note is I did very little calibrating during my testing, and did not bother enabling "Game Mode" on these TVs if they had them since, from what I hear, these features are more gimmicks than anything, and people usually shut them off anyway.


So how did the LCDs do? Shockingly bad.


I tried the following TVs:


Sony KDL-V2500 (40")

Sharp D82 (46" with 120Hz refresh)

Samsung LN-T4661 (46")

and at a guy's request some 32" LG that had a 5ms response time


When I loaded up the pyramid level of timesplitters and moved around... ALL of the texture detail in the pyramids was completely lost. A blurry, disgusting mess. I was shocked at how bad it was. A couple of dudes started watching me, saying it wasn't that bad... and then I took them over to the tube TV section and hooked up to an SD sony and showed them what it was supposed to look like. They were shocked as well. The guy who asked me to try the LG said he was going to rethink his decision to get one.


Although they all preformed fairly similar, out of them all, I would say that the Samsung handled it the best... and suprisingly, the Sharp was by far the worst... even with the touted 120Hz refresh rate (which I think I had turned on correctly with "Fine Motion Mode"). Even so, comparing it to the CRT I've been using for the past 6 years, even the Sammy was far from playable.


There is one ray of light though...


I was so discouraged, I decided to go against my bias and try a plasma. I have been against plasma because of the whole image retention thing, as well as the thought of plasma sets consuming so much more power. But on a whim, i hooked up the PS2 to the Panasonic 58" PZ700 (the 50" model wasn't on display, but it is in the same price bracket as the LCDs I tested). There was very little blur. It was perhaps a hair or two behind my CRT, but it was light years better than any of the LCDs I tried.


To summarize... I am now pretty much completely turned off of LCD displays. But I really want a fixed pixel display and will probably start reading up on Plasmas. I know a lot of games these days don't come close to 60 frames per second, which makes this blurring harder to detect, but that doesn't mean its not there.

 

[seether4113]

On the Samsung, you should have turned DNIe off, as it is known to increase motion blur on the LN-T sets. Im not sure if the other brands had a setting similar or not, but I don't notice any motion blur on my LN-T4065F... maybe I'm just blind. Oh well.

 

[isucamper]



Quote:
Originally Posted by seether4113 /forum/post/0


On the Samsung, you should have turned DNIe off, as it is known to increase motion blur on the LN-T sets. Im not sure if the other brands had a setting similar or not, but I don't notice any motion blur on my LN-T4065F... maybe I'm just blind. Oh well.

Yeah like I said, I did very little calibration. It took several hours to do what I did without messing with each set's settings.


Everything I said should be taken with a grain of salt if there are known settings on these LCDs that reduce the blur. After seeing what I saw though, its hard for me to belive that there's some menu selection I can set to make all that blur go away.

 

[WaldorfSalad]

Did you make sure to turn off noise reduction, edge enhancement, detail enhancement, DRC clarity (Sony), DNIe (Samsung), etc. as applicable on the TVs you tested? All of these picture enhancement features can affect blurring. For example, on my Sony 52XBR3, the noise reduction, DRC clarity, and edge enhancement settings have a noticeable effect on blurring. Turning them off reduces blurring quite significantly.

 

[Sandman9R]

Camper,


This test was ingenious. You made me realize how the 60fps craze has died down in the past few years. When a game came out that was 60fps, it was all the rage. Especially during the early PS2 years.


I'm also a gamer and motion blur is a serious concern for me. I currently have a 34 inch Sony XBR 960 (widely considered the perfect CRT) and games on it are flawless.


Unfortunately, I'm starting to notice some motion blur with a brand new Sharp Aquos LC-52D82U (4ms, 120Hz refresh rate). I just returned a Samsung LN-T5265F (8ms) not for motion blur but for handshaking issues. Still though, I don't think it could've handled a 60fps pounding.


I'm glad Best Buy allowed you the liberty to test the television in any way possible. If I decide to return this Sharp, which I'm leaning towards, I'll have to do something similar. Please post either here or on the gamer forum which set, besides our trustworthy tubes, wind up passing this crucial test.

 

[isucamper]



Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldorfSalad /forum/post/0


Did you make sure to turn off noise reduction, edge enhancement, detail enhancement, DRC clarity (Sony), DNIe (Samsung), etc. as applicable on the TVs you tested? All of these picture enhancement features can affect blurring. For example, on my Sony 52XBR3, the noise reduction, DRC clarity, and edge enhancement settings have a noticeable effect on blurring. Turning them off reduces blurring quite significantly.

No, I didn't do any setting adjustments other than fine motion on the sharp. But in the same breath, I didn't mess with the plasma at all either. Man, this is making me want redo this test just to be sure.


All of the LCDs looked so similar in how they handled this motion, and so different from the tube and plasma... but still I should have gathered ALL of the proper calibration information. Not sure when I'll get another afternoon to do a test like this, unfortunately.

 

[WaldorfSalad]



Quote:
Originally Posted by isucamper /forum/post/0


No, I didn't do any setting adjustments other than fine motion on the sharp. But in the same breath, I didn't mess with the plasma at all either. Man, this is making me want redo this test just to be sure.


All of the LCDs looked so similar in how they handled this motion, and so different from the tube and plasma... but still I should have gathered ALL of the proper calibration information. Not sure when I'll get another afternoon to do a test like this, unfortunately.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are finding, just suggesting ways to perhaps reduce motion blur using some of the TVs settings. After all, I'm not a gamer so my experience with motion blur is with HDTV (DirecTV), Blu-ray and HD-DVD where it tends to be source related (bandwidth limitation, over-compression, etc). However, I have noticed that motion blur from such sources does tend to be a little more noticeable on LCD TVs than on plasmas, DLPs, SXRDs, etc. and this does bother me a little at times.

 

[conan48]

Thanks for doing this test. I work at Costco and Im thinking of bringing my PS3 to work and testing how the LCDs compare with a higher res signal. Could be the scaling on the LCDs that cause bad blurring. Using HDMI should give the LCD a cleaner signal and maybe reduce blurring. Im also going to test the plasmas to see how they compare. I will also try and post a comprehensive analysis in the near future. Im also surprised that the Sharp was the worst with it's 4ms response and 120hz refresh rate. Or, maybe Im not so surprised as I owned a 45" sharp last year for about a week. While it was only rated at 6ms it had HORRIBLE blur and I just assumed it was defective and returned it and ended up with a Panny 50" which is/was way better then the Sharp. Im getting the 1080p bug and am seriously considering the 50" 92u Sharp, but now Im wondering if maybe I should just wait for the new LED LCDs which are finally supposed to eliminate all motion blur. BTW, the Panny 50" has 0 burn in and I occasionly get slight IR which lasts for at most 15 minutes. Panny is safe for gaming.

 

[conan48]

Sandman, would you say the blur is worse on the Sharp then the Samsung? Also, do any of you notice with the Sharp that sometimes they leave a coloured streak. Ex. Guy with dark hair is walking through a white hallway, and his hair leaves coloured streaks through the white. NOT blur, but an actual coloured streak that can be seen for a good amount of time before it fades? Had this problem with my 45" and it was very annoying.

 

[Sandman9R]



Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 /forum/post/0


Sandman, would you say the blur is worse on the Sharp then the Samsung?

I didn't play any games on the Samsung. I returned it immediately after it didn't recognize the SD signals from my cable box via HDMI (SA8300HD). The picture with its high 15K contrast ratio left a lot to be desired, in my opinion.

 

[Jenova]

I own a Samsung LNT4665F LCD display and I haven't noticed any bad or noticeable motion blurring when gaming. So far I tried Ninja Gaiden Sigma demo on the PS3, which runs in 60 fps at 1080p--no blurring despite the fast action. I also tried Virtua Fighter, which also runs at 60fps--same results. Then I tried Gears of War and Forza 2 demo for 360, both looked exceptional with no obvious blurring.


I did notice blurring when I watch HD cable broadcasts. I'm guessing it's partially a source problem.


But this issue still concerns me and I will try some more games with it tonight.

 

[Jose G]

Your results are what many a search say- that plasma tech is best for gaming, black levels, and viewing angle- period. I know that many of us LCD owners (I am one, too) want to believe that LCD tech is better than plasma, but it's not. It's different and not that far off as it once was, but even burn in is no longer really an issue (unless you just abuse your set). I read once that most folks go in thinking that LCD tech is better and then when they do a side by side with plasma, they convert. I did a side by side and agreed with what I read. I wish I had a dark viewing room for plasma- but I live in light, so I'm an LCD man all the way.

 

[EADGBE]

I have a 52XBR2 Sony LCD. I have Xbox 360 hooked up via component cables and I'm playing everything in 1080p. The games look absolutely amazing with no motion blur, or issues at all. Oblivion, Forza2, DOA, etc. I can tell you this though, PS2 looks like garbage on the TV, and so does all other 480i/p material. However when you see something in 1080p it's amazing. I'd seriously suggest trying this same experiment but this time bring a 360 an component cables, or better yet an Elite with HDMI. I can almost garantee you'll see a very different result.

 

[EADGBE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenova /forum/post/0


I own a Samsung LNT4665F LCD display and I haven't noticed any bad or noticeable motion blurring when gaming. So far I tried Ninja Gaiden Sigma demo on the PS3, which runs in 60 fps at 1080p--no blurring despite the fast action. I also tried Virtua Fighter, which also runs at 60fps--same results. Then I tried Gears of War and Forza 2 demo for 360, both looked exceptional with no obvious blurring.


I did notice blurring when I watch HD cable broadcasts. I'm guessing it's partially a source problem.


But this issue still concerns me and I will try some more games with it tonight.

I have the same issue. Games are amazing and no bluring or issues. SD sucks, but that was to be expected. HD cable bradcasts are good as long as no one is moving. Once things get moving fast I see blocks. I've been assured that this due to poor compresion and bandwidth issues and this is basically the Cable Company's fault. I believe it to be, because sometimes I see blocks even when no one is moving. Some movies/broadcasts are more prone to it then others. A good test will be to run a Blueray movie through your PS3 and it should look much better then what you're getting from HD cable.

 

[EADGBE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose G /forum/post/0


Your results are what many a search say- that plasma tech is best for gaming, black levels, and viewing angle- period. I know that many of us LCD owners (I am one, too) want to believe that LCD tech is better than plasma, but it's not. It's different and not that far off as it once was, but even burn in is no longer really an issue (unless you just abuse your set). I read once that most folks go in thinking that LCD tech is better and then when they do a side by side with plasma, they convert. I did a side by side and agreed with what I read. I wish I had a dark viewing room for plasma- but I live in light, so I'm an LCD man all the way.

Plasma has it's issues too though. 1080p plasmas aren't much of an option right now, the sets that are out are expensive and have room for improvement. After getting used to the matte LCD screen, I don't think I could ever go back to a TV with a glass screen. I can't emphasize enough how nice it is to be able to watch TV in the day, and at night with no issues due to lights/reflections. Burn in/IR might be less of an issue with Plasma now, then it was, but regardless it's still something you have to deal with in someway, with current LCD's it's a non-issue. I'll agree Plasma has it's benefits but right now I don't see it as a clear winner over LCD. I think they both have their pro's & cons, but right now, for my needs a non-reflective LCD is the way to go.

 

[Jose G]



Quote:
Originally Posted by EADGBE /forum/post/0


Plasma has it's issues to though. 1080p plasmas are much of an option right now, the set that are out are expensive and have room for improvement. After getting used to the matte LCD screen, I don't think I could ever go back to a TV with a glass screen. I can't emphasize enough how nice it is to be able to watch TV in the day, and at night with no issues due to lights/reflections. Burn in/IR might be less of an issue with Plasma, but regardless it's still something you have to deal with in someway, with current LCD's it's a non-issue. I'll agree Plasma has it's benefits but right now I don't see it as a clear winner over LCD. I think they both have there pro's & cons, but right now for my needs a non-reflective LCD is the way to go.

I agree. I live in light and love to watch the set now compared to my old set with all the glare I use to get. Even at my folks' place, where the light shines righ on their LCD, it's a non-issue. I was shocked to see the new glass glare panels on some of the new lcds out there the other day- the reflection was very distracting.

 

[EADGBE]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose G /forum/post/0


I agree. I live in light and love to watch the set now compared to my old set with all the glare I use to get. Even at my folks' place, where the light shines righ on their LCD, it's a non-issue. I was shocked to see the new glass glare panels on some of the new lcds out there the other day- the reflection was very distracting.

Yeah, I agree with what you and some others have said about that. One of the biggest draws to LCD is no reflection, I don't think adding the reflective screen to get a bit more constrast is worth it. (BTW - I fixed all the typos in my last post.

)

 

[WaldorfSalad]

I had both the Sony 52XBR3 LCD and the Samsung 5053 plasma side-by-side in my home for about a week. I ended up keeping the 52XBR3 (despite slight flashlights in top corners) and returning the 5053 plasma because of (a) too much glare and reflection in our bright room and (b) I kept seeing green/yellow flashes (I see rainbows on DLPs too). The 5053 plasma did have better blacks but worse shadow detail and more noise than the XBR3.


Anyway, I was a bit concerned about the motion blurring on the 52XBR3 when watching HD satellite and OTA broadcasts so I did some comparisons and found it to be about equal on both sets with the slight edge given to the plasma*. Then and now I can pause and slow-mo or step foward my DirecTV HD-Tivo receiver to easily see the cause of the blur during motion. You can see lots of compression noise/artifacts and mosquito noise in the form of tiny blocks (smaller than macroblocking) and "squiggles" that appear during motion and that rob the picture of detail in and around objects and cause things to look a little soft and fuzzy. I'm convinced that the problem is definitely due to the source.

*Remember, these 1080p LCD TVs show the bad as well as the good in great detail.

 

[iserum]

with all due respect, why would i hook a PS2 to a 1080p LCD set in 480i mode, it is like buying and Ferrari and drive only in 25 mph zone and start complaining about it, i should have bought hyndai........


Fact is PS3/Xbox 360 games look amazing on any 1080p set. i do not notice any motion blur on any BD or HD DVD movies either, i would rather have crisp HD picture all the time even with with minor motion blur for a ms rather than watching crappy 480i feed.

 

[dark1x]

You sound just like myself (the original poster). I'm a huge 60 fps whore and have been disappointed in its disappearance.


I have, however, spent time testing both low resolution and HD (up to 1080p) sources on those LCDs and what you suggest is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. The only difference I found was the fact that the Sharp D92 was actually the fastest performer (but that was with 1080p 60 fps content). None of them were up to acceptable levels.


I was in your exact position 2 years ago when I went plasma, actually. There is another issue awaiting you, however, and it's something you won't detect in store. That issue is black level. In store, all panels appear suitably dark, but take them home and put them in a dark room and they will glow. Every single one of them (which is why I'm selling my current plasma in order to buy an 8th gen Pioneer this summer).


If you love 60 fps and want a large screen, plasma is your best bet. Unfortunately, plasma does suffer from phosphor trails (which often appear as yellow trails). I've rarely found this to be a significant problem and I much prefer it to LCD ghosting, but it IS there. Plasmas still deliver the most CRT-like picture and burn-in really isn't a significant issue (and this is coming from a hardcore gamer).


Basically, all non-CRT technologies suffer from blurring of some sort. Those who claim it is not an issue simply aren't capable of seeing it (a position I'd love to be in, honestly). Still, if you want to go HD, plasma seems like your best option as it was mine. You may want to consider waiting for the 8th gen Pioneer plasmas, however.