AVS Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have to replace my SXRD LCD.... if you had a choice, which would you choose out of these 3 TVs....


Sony Bravia 60" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV (KDL60EX703)

Sony Bravia 60" 1080p 120Hz LCD HDTV (KDL60EX500)

Panasonic 65" 1080p Plasma HDTV (TCP65S1)


It will be in my low lit basement, I mostly watch HDTV, Bluray, PS3 games, and DVDs.


Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,242 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial75 /forum/post/18310661


I have to replace my SXRD LCD.... if you had a choice, which would you choose out of these 3 TVs....


Sony Bravia 60" 1080p 120Hz LED HDTV (KDL60EX703)

Sony Bravia 60" 1080p 120Hz LCD HDTV (KDL60EX500)

Panasonic 65" 1080p Plasma HDTV (TCP65S1)


It will be in my low lit basement, I mostly watch HDTV, Bluray, PS3 games, and DVDs.


Any suggestions?


Thanks in advance....

Well, since these are all new TVs and most of us don't know much about them yet, buy the one you like best and report back to us after you had it for awhile.


However, if you pick the plasma, report back in the plasma forum.



Happy deciding!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts
all 3 are great TV's its down to your tastes in how they look to you and what you intend to use them for
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilerJim /forum/post/18310865


Well, since these are all new TVs and most of us don't know much about them yet, buy the one you like best and report back to us after you had it for awhile.


However, if you pick the plasma, report back in the plasma forum.



Happy deciding!

The Plasma is an '09 model. If the OP wants a plasma they'd be better off looking at '10 models.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18310956


The Plasma is an '09 model. If the OP wants a plasma they'd be better off looking at '10 models.

the black rise problem on '09 Panasonic's is only visible in a completely dark room by many owners accounts in the thread regarding the problem. the average user and under average viewing conditions there is ambient light in the room the blacks still look very good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18311084


the black rise problem on '09 Panasonic's is only visible in a completely dark room by many owners accounts in the thread regarding the problem. the average user and under average viewing conditions there is ambient light in the room the blacks still look very good.

A black level of 0.018 or 0.023 is clearly brighter than the initial .008 (examples from CNET and the AVS member Orta). In any room without bright lighting, this would be easily visible. If you don't see it on your X1, odds are it hasn't risen yet or risen that much yet. I have a PZ80 from '08 that has an 0.015 black level (no rise) and it is clearly worse than my B650 LCD with CE dimming on. Anyone who cares about PQ and doesn't always view TV with bright lighting will see a difference if the black levels rise that much. .008 to 0.023 is 66% less CR; in no way is that insignificant. It's like buying a year or two old plasma.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18311145


A black level of 0.018 or 0.023 is clearly brighter than the initial .008 (examples from CNET and the AVS member Orta). In any room without bright lighting, this would be easily visible. If you don't see it on your X1, odds are it hasn't risen yet or risen that much yet. I have a PZ80 from '08 that has an 0.015 black level (no rise) and it is clearly worse than my B650 LCD with CE dimming on. Anyone who cares about PQ and doesn't always view TV with bright lighting will see a difference if the black levels rise that much. .008 to 0.023 is 66% less CR; in no way is that insignificant. It's like buying a year or two old plasma.

and anyone who cares about picture quality isn't using a dynamic backlight setting that dims the backlight of the LCD therefore damaging picture quality, the exception of course is is local dimming LED LCD's


CCFL LCD's with dimming turned on either do not dim when watching most content unless the picture is very dark or if they do dim outside of this use it really damages picture quality and is annoying.


Every single LCD TV i've owned has done this


the Sony 32XBR6 would only do it with extremely dark scenes or a black screen and it was annoying but rarely happened and you could not disable it ever.


the Toshiba 40xv645u i owned for a few weeks had a dynalight setting and it would do it more often and was fairly responsive when doing it but could still be annoying at times


my current Panny 37S1 has A.I Picture and its pretty annoying to me so i never use it, rather i have a custom pic mode setup for dark viewing that keeps the backlight setting at a very low level for dark viewing environments.


while there are LCD's sold today that will beat a black risen Panasonic Plasma, they do not beat them with black levels at off angles still and the plasma will never have a color hue to the blacks like most LCD's tend to have due to their design. often appear purple or blue, some more than others and even the S-PVA panels do it but you have to go to more extreme angles to see it but they also have screen uniformity problems with black/dark images pretty often so there you go. no TV is perfect and it's really up to the end user because nit picking very small issues that the average person will never care about or often notice is something that is a major problem on these forums.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18311323


and anyone who cares about picture quality isn't using a dynamic backlight setting that dims the backlight of the LCD therefore damaging picture quality, the exception of course is is local dimming LED LCD's


CCFL LCD's with dimming turned on either do not dim when watching most content unless the picture is very dark or if they do dim outside of this use it really damages picture quality and is annoying.


Every single LCD TV i've owned has done this


the Sony 32XBR6 would only do it with extremely dark scenes or a black screen and it was annoying but rarely happened and you could not disable it ever.


the Toshiba 40xv645u i owned for a few weeks had a dynalight setting and it would do it more often and was fairly responsive when doing it but could still be annoying at times


my current Panny 37S1 has A.I Picture and its pretty annoying to me so i never use it, rather i have a custom pic mode setup for dark viewing that keeps the backlight setting at a very low level for dark viewing environments.


while there are LCD's sold today that will beat a black risen Panasonic Plasma, they do not beat them with black levels at off angles still and the plasma will never have a color hue to the blacks like most LCD's tend to have due to their design. often appear purple or blue, some more than others and even the S-PVA panels do it but you have to go to more extreme angles to see it but they also have screen uniformity problems with black/dark images pretty often so there you go. no TV is perfect and it's really up to the end user because nit picking very small issues that the average person will never care about or often notice is something that is a major problem on these forums.

It actually works pretty well on my TV. Still, the black level is 0.016 fL with it off at a backlight setting of 5/10.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18311323


while there are LCD's sold today that will beat a black risen Panasonic Plasma, they do not beat them with black levels at off angles still and the plasma will never have a color hue to the blacks like most LCD's tend to have due to their design. often appear purple or blue, some more than others and even the S-PVA panels do it but you have to go to more extreme angles to see it but they also have screen uniformity problems with black/dark images pretty often so there you go.

The S1 has a greenish grayscale from the factory though. That affects blacks, grays, whites, and everything else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18311684


The S1 has a greenish grayscale from the factory though. That affects blacks, grays, whites, and everything else.

sure but that is not as noticeable to an average end user as having dark/black images turn blue or purple if your viewing from an off angle, how much and what angle you need to be viewing from varies greatly on today's LCD's and many of the top tier brand model's are much less susceptible to this problem but it still happens on them because its a design drawback of LCD displays
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18311626


It actually works pretty well on my TV. Still, the black level is 0.016 fL with it off at a backlight setting of 5/10.

so what your saying is turning that off and showing the real black level of your LCD at 50% backlight level results in blacks that are slightly better than black risen Panasonic's.


that's pretty much saying that its not a problem to the average end user and reinforces what i was saying from the get go.


if you like to watch movies in nearly completely dark to completely dark room you would want to avoid them and 95%+ of the TV's made and sold today, only Pioneer's and local dimming LCD's (not taking into account their individual drawbacks) will get as dark as possible.


it really just goes to show how overblown this problem appears to be on these forums.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts
My point about not getting the S1 Plasma is that other Plasma manufacturers don't have rising blacks like Samsung, LG, and previously Pioneer. If the OP wants a plasma, there are better choices, both for '09 and very likely for '10. The OP's viewing conditions are lowly lit, where black levels should not be disregarded. I would want a TV that's contrast ratio is not largely based on panel hours. Since when is a 66% drop in measured contrast ratio (real contrast not spec sheet data) not significant? It could get even worse after more hours accumulate on the TV. If contrast ratio is not significant, why buy a Panasonic over another brand? Color accuracy is not a strength of the S1 nor is grayscale/gamma nor is availability of picture adjustments. It seems the '09 Panasonics are given more credit by some then they deserve, probably based on past generation models' performance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18311777


sure but that is not as noticeable to an average end user as having dark/black images turn blue or purple if your viewing from an off angle, how much and what angle you need to be viewing from varies greatly on today's LCD's and many of the top tier brand model's are much less susceptible to this problem but it still happens on them because its a design drawback of LCD displays

Actually a greenish cast is far more noticeable to the eye than a blue one, like with many LCDs. Also, the green cast is in all scenes and not just dark ones.


Purple sounds bad though, but my LCD doesn't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18311793


so what your saying is turning that off and showing the real black level of your LCD at 50% backlight level results in blacks that are slightly better than black risen Panasonic's.


that's pretty much saying that its not a problem to the average end user and reinforces what i was saying from the get go.


if you like to watch movies in nearly completely dark to completely dark room you would want to avoid them and 95%+ of the TV's made and sold today, only Pioneer's and local dimming LCD's (not taking into account their individual drawbacks) will get as dark as possible.


it really just goes to show how overblown this problem appears to be on these forums.

I'm not happy with the 0.016 fL and that's why CE dimming or turning down the backlight were the only options for me. I chose CE dimming because I could get the benefits of brighter whites and normal scenes while still having dark scenes and somewhat dark scenes look deep black and not washed out at all. Also, raising gamma to 2.3 gave the overall image more depth than 2.2 or lower gamma.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18312083


My point about not getting the S1 Plasma is that other Plasma manufacturers don't have rising blacks like Samsung, LG, and previously Pioneer. If the OP wants a plasma, there are better choices, both for '09 and very likely for '10. The OP's viewing conditions are lowly lit, where black levels should not be disregarded. I would want a TV that's contrast ratio is not largely based on panel hours. Since when is a 66% drop in measured contrast ratio (real contrast not spec sheet data) not significant? It could get even worse after more hours accumulate on the TV. If contrast ratio is not significant, why buy a Panasonic over another brand? Color accuracy is not a strength of the S1 nor is grayscale/gamma nor is availability of picture adjustments. It seems the '09 Panasonics are given more credit by some then they deserve, probably based on past generation models' performance.

Samsung plasmas black levels are more or less equal with a black risen panasonic, I've seen it with my own two eyes in a store with both on a black screen, the panasonic had 3400 hours on it so it had definately happened and the Samsung may have had a slight edge over the panasonic but not much and it was only visible because they were next to each other.


LG plasma's cannot compare to either of them and have terrible minimum black levels so throwing them into the mix is completely pointless, their LCD's also have worse black levels than almost any other TV proving even more that the average person does not put much weight into how black their TV gets in a dark room. only videophiles and people that like to watch movies without bias lighting care about these things.


the OP says his basement is low lit not completely dark and provided that hes coming from an LCD RPTV the black level on just about any LCD or Plasma will be tons better than what he came from as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,700 Posts
"Editors' note, March 3, 2010: Testing conducted on 2009 Panasonic plasma TVs, similar to this one, has revealed that black-level performance has become noticeably less impressive within what is typically the first year of ownership. As a result, we don't feel confident that the initial picture quality of this TV, as described in the review below, can be maintained over the course of its lifetime, and therefore find it difficult to recommend. Its Performance score has been accordingly reduced by one point to better indicate comparative picture quality after 1,500 hours of use. Click here for more information."

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...?tag=mncol;lst

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10462105-1.html


"Color accuracy: As we've seen on many Panasonic plasmas, lack of control combined with less-accurate initial colors to hinder the S1's comparative performance in this area. Its grayscale was relatively accurate, but overall the greenish tinge was visible throughout in side-by-side comparisons, especially in skin tones, like Watts' face, and unlike with the V10 we couldn't adjust it out. All of the other sets were better to some degree in this regard. Primary colors on the S1 also fell short of the others, especially green. Even the muted plants in Central Park, after the Guggenheim shoot-em-up in Chapter 11 seemed too vibrant and neon-like compared with the other sets. And in most lush, saturated material, such as the field during a football game, the difference was even more apparent.


The S1's saturation in most scenes was very good, on the other hand, owing mainly to its deep black levels. But it didn't match that of the V10 and the Samsung B650 plasmas, primarily because we had to reduce color to make up for the Panasonic's red push, which turned skin tones too ruddy for our tastes. We also appreciated the S1's true color in dark areas, which remained as accurate as on any display in our group."


I would say let the OP form his own opinions based on this information. Keep in mind CNET is quite biased toward Plasma though.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top