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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, there'll be no universal High Definition DVD replacement:

Quote:
Unified DVD dead - report

Correspondents in Tokyo

AUGUST 23, 2005


GROUPS pushing competing technologies for next-generation DVDs have given up developing a unified format.


For three years, the two groups, headed by Toshiba and Sony, have pushed to have their respective technology standards adopted to gain dominance in the multibillion-dollar markets for DVD players, PC drives and optical discs.

Toshiba, along with NEC and Sanyo, has been promoting HD DVD, while Sony and Matsushita, the maker of Panasonic brand products, have been developing a technology known as Blu-ray.


The two groups have held negotiations on unifying their formats to persuade consumers to shift to advanced discs and to promote growth in the industry.


But negotiations fell through as neither side yielded, and time ran out to develop a format before the launch of new products from both groups, Japan's Yomiuri newspaper has reported.


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"Late August is the practical time limit (to unify formats)," Yoshihide Fujii, Toshiba's corporate senior vice president, was quoted as saying in the paper.


A Toshiba spokeswoman said Mr Fujii meant that the company needed to start developing software by late August for its HD DVD-based players, scheduled for release at the end of 2005.


A Sony spokesman said it has become harder to unify formats after failing to reach an agreement in negotiations in May.


Both officials agreed, however, that a unified format is still a possibility. They said a single format would be the best way, and added they would release their products as scheduled.


Sony plans to put a Blu-ray disc drive in its new PlayStation game console next year.


Sony's Blu-ray technology is also backed by Dell and Samsung.


At the core of both formats are blue lasers, which have a shorter wavelength than red lasers used in current DVD equipment, allowing discs to store data at higher densities needed for high-definition movies and television.


Toshiba's then president, Tadashi Okamura, had said in May producers of next-generation optical discs would eventually use one format, although products based on the two competing standards may be around for a limited time.


Reuters
 

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Hell I knew they wouldn't come to a compromise. Companies must make money and unified formats don't make enough for many. I don't expect either format to take off like gangbusters for a few years while larger HDTV TVs continue their descent into affordability.
 

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Who said the porn industry would all come down on one format? I'd be very surprised not to see fragmentation in their ranks too. Remember, there was porn on Beta too...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabee121usa
I still have a Sony Betamax and from my knowledge the Sony if by far the better recorder.
Just in passing, I too still own Beta machines, but not the original Betamax.


I have two ED-Beta boxes (EDV-9500 and EDV-7500) that I still use, and I also have a Super-Beta (HFR-900) that I still use. Mostly, these units are used to "route" (and sometimes record) S-VHS signals from D* source to non-HD TV's or my PC or to S-VHS VCR's, as well as to play back SuperBeta and ED-Beta recordings made many years ago. On occasion I still make ED-Beta recordings on my EDV-9500 when I'm going to be out of town for a while and want to time-shift some daily non-HD stuff and need all the recording capacity I can find. Briefly running an occasional Sony cleaning tape through these maybe once or twice a year is the only care and feeding they need.


Not in use but in storage, I also have two more ED-Beta boxes (EDV-9500 and EDV-7500) along with an SL-HF2100 SuperBeta 15th Anniversary Edition.


In all honesty, while the ED-Beta machines represented Sony's Beta consumer (or rather "pro-sumer") technology at its finest back in 1988 when these machines were developed and were definitely much superior to both VHS and even S-VHS at that time, JVC has come a long long way since then in improving the VHS and S-VHS analog recording world. I'd always been a Beta man, but since the mid-90's the JVS S-VHS machines have been truly stellar.


I've owned numerous JVC S-VHS and D-VHS machines since the mid-80's, and I will say without qualification that today's S-VHS recordings are now far superior in quality to even ED-Beta, even when using EP speed. In fact, I (who is a perfectionist) am completely satisfied when I'm forced to record and watch SD time-shifted stuff on S-VHS (mostly SP mode given the option, but often EP mode), begin completely unable to see any of the old visual artifacts that used to be so prominent on old VHS and S-VHS, especially at EP speed.


In fact today's S-VHS recordings look perfect... just like the D* original program. I realize they're not digitally perfect (as they are from my four Hughes HDR-205 D-VHS machines connected to my four Hughes E45 D* receivers, which I use for my regular daily/weekly non-SD workhorse timeshifting), but they sure look just about identical. These E45/HDR205 pods are my SD D-VHS version of Tivo (the E45's have 32 timer event memories) with the added convenience of being able to play the SD D-VHS recordings anywhere around the house at any TV I happen to be at.


And this amazing video quality on current generation JVC S-VHS machines has further carried over onto their D-VHS machines where they seem to have improved even more. I continue to comment on this whenever I use them to make (or play back) S-VHS recordings. I own a JVC 40K and JVC DT100U, and their S-VHS analog capability might just as well be digital. Essentially perfect analog S-VHS recordings, and I'm not using their MPEG encoder. But let's not forget that until JVC came out with the D-VHS product lines, it still did not have TWO S-VHS input and output paths, something which the Sony ED-Beta machines have had since 1988. This is now "standard" on JVC D-VHS machines.


So, while I'm part of Beta's history (as well as part of its fan base that still uses the 20-year old workhorse machines that still perform perfectly, both electronically and mechanically), I must say I use S-VHS today without hesitating or negative feelings. Today I would unequivacally say that S-VHS is superior to the best Beta or SuperBeta or ED-Beta that Sony ever came out with.


For S-VHS work I still use the fabulous Fuji Pro-S ST-120 tapes (bronze color sleeve packaging) I bought in the early 90's, and which I bulk-erase every so often to get them back to near-new condition. For 2/3-hour ED-Beta work I still use Sony Ed-Beta tapes acquired many years ago (I even still have six factory-sealed cassettes that have not yet been opened, awaiting some special purpose yet to be encountered), also bulk-erased occasionally. For 3/4.5-hour SuperBeta work I still use the fabulous TDK HD-Pro tapes (in hard white plastic book-like cases) I bought in the 80's and 90's. These TDK tapes were absolutely terrific and yielded perfect color recordings.


Today, for HD time-shifting I use a 6412 DVR from Comcast. I offload temporarily to D-VHS to either 40K/DT100U when 6412 capacity limits demand it. I archive to D-VHS when I want to keep something. But my 6412 is reserved 100% for HD. And there's no question the features and advantages of a DVR stand on their own merits and must be praised.


But, in my heart, I'm still a "tape man". And Beta has given me decades of wonderful service. However today, JVC's S-VHS analog quality is the best.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber
In all honesty, while the ED-Beta machines represented Sony's Beta consumer (or rather "pro-sumer") technology at its finest back in 1988 when these machines were developed and were definitely much superior to both VHS and even S-VHS at that time, JVC has come a long long way since then in improving the VHS and S-VHS analog recording world. I'd always been a Beta man, but since the mid-90's the JVS S-VHS machines have been truly stellar.
I owned various EDBeta, SuperBeta VCRs. I owned Sony models ED-V7500, SL-HF2100, SL-HF1000, SL-HF900 and SL-HF750. Those VCRs became worth so much that I sold them in 1997 and 1998 and actually recovered my new purchase prices in total. I started using a JVC HR-S9500U in 1998 and D-VHS in 2000 and never looked back. As far as analog recording, I never thought SVHS quite equaled EDBeta but beginning with the 9500U, I believe the difference was so minor as to be insignificant.


A format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray sounds like bad news to me. I never minded having the losing format in the analog VCR war but I don't know what is going to happen here. Owning the loser here may be something we will all want to avoid. So my advice is everybody buy Blu-ray and it won't be an issue.


Chris
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iGot Issues
Porn will decide like before, HD-DVD will win it's cheap and just as good.
No HD-DVD is doomed - PS3 alone will put more blu-ray players in homes it's first month than HD-DVD is likely to sell it's first year.
 

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Do you think that the PS3 will be successful if it has a price tag in the realm of where they are talking about the HD-DVD and BD players being? I doubt that many will fork over 1K for a vidoe game system, even if it does have BD built in.
 

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I think these two groups are stupid. They will not make near as much money on this technology as they would have if they unified. D-VHS was supposed to be the interim solution for HD until HighDef DVD. Now it seems we will have two more interim solution before they unify. The majority of people will not buy into this, just as they skipped D-VHS.


Brian...Gaming systems are always sold at a significant loss. They make their money from further sales of games, licenses, etc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian12773
Do you think that the PS3 will be successful if it has a price tag in the realm of where they are talking about the HD-DVD and BD players being? I doubt that many will fork over 1K for a vidoe game system, even if it does have BD built in.
Get real. Sony will kill the Playstation franchise if they price the PS/3 that high.


The PS/3's competition is with the XBOX360, not other BD players or HD DVD. The BD is the bonus and the push start for the format, but the PS/3 is still primarily a game machine.


Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Dail
No HD-DVD is doomed - PS3 alone will put more blu-ray players in homes it's first month than HD-DVD is likely to sell it's first year.
Figure a million PS/3 in the first month. That would make HD DVD the new king of CE machines (DVD took 14 months to reach a million).


So, actually, the PS/3 will put more Blu-Ray players in homes it's first DAY than HD-DVD is likely to sell in its first year. :)


That should put things in perspective. But, the HD-DVD crowd then buries their head in the sand, and says nobody with a PS/3 will buy any movie discs.


Bottom line here: In the last few weeks we've seen Fox and Lion's Gate commit to movie title launch with the BD hardware. And HD-DVD studios have pulled back from their similar committment (that would be the one rubbed in our faces for eight months).


Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian12773
Do you think that the PS3 will be successful if it has a price tag in the realm of where they are talking about the HD-DVD and BD players being? I doubt that many will fork over 1K for a vidoe game system, even if it does have BD built in.
PS3's will be sold at a loss, just like all game consoles. If you don't think people will then buy blu-ray movies to play on PS3s, just go look at all of the movies that come out for the PSP - those movies only play on that one proprietary piece of hardware.


what will people buy - $1000 HD-DVD player or a $399 PS3?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
 http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.ph...4-020213-9442r

Quote:
DVD war heats up with no winner in sight

By Shihoko Goto

UPI Senior Business Correspondent

Published August 24, 2005



WASHINGTON -- The war of the videotapes is now corporate history as VHS triumphed over Betamax in the early 1980s, but there is now a new battle for companies to wager, namely in the field of DVDs.


There had been hopes that Japanese electronics giants Sony and Toshiba would cooperate in coming up with a common standard for the audiovisual discs, but on Wednesday the head of Toshiba made it clear that collaboration between the two companies will not be happening any time soon.



"There's no plan for (resuming) such talks at this moment" with Sony, said Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida to reporters in Tokyo.


Currently, Toshiba uses the HD, or high definition, format of DVDs, while Sony is supporting the Blu-ray discs, and the two formats are incompatible with one another. At the same time, each company is steaming ahead with plans to develop hardware that makes full use of their particular format of the DVD. Toshiba will be producing HD DVDs by December ahead of the Christmas shopping deadline, while Sony will be launching its PlayStation 3 videogames on the Blu-ray format.


Moreover, the battle of the DVD formats goes beyond the two companies that are developing them. Toshiba's product is being backed by NEC and Sanyo, while Sony is being supported by Matsushita, the manufacturer of the Panasonic label as well as Apple Computer, Dell, Philips and Samsung. In addition, entertainment companies are finding themselves backing one or the other, with Paramount, Universal Pictures, which is part of General Electric, and Time Warner siding with Toshiba's HD format, while MGM, Disney and Sony's own Sony Pictures are promoting the Blu-ray disc.


Analysts argue, however, that there are more similarities than differences between the two forms of the DVD each company is offering, as both Blu-ray and HD promise crisper images and clearer sounds by using high-capacity discs. There are, however, some differences including data capacity, with 15 gigabytes for HD and 25 gigabytes for Blu-ray, compared to the 4.7 gigabyte capacity in current DVDs. Meanwhile, the Blu-ray is thinner than the HD, at 0.1 mm, while the HD is the same as the existing DVD measuring 0.6 mm in its recorded layer.


In the videotape war of two decades ago, Sony ultimately lost against JVC as Betamax never took off the way VHS did, but some industry analysts said they see Sony having an edge over Toshiba in the current battle, not least because demand for Sony's latest PlayStation console next spring is expected to be strong. In addition, some argued that Sony's backing from Hollywood was stronger than that of Toshiba, making it more compelling for the entertainment industry to commit to Blu-ray than to HD.


For now, though, it appears that neither company is benefiting from the continued uncertainty about the DVD business. Indeed, there is growing concern that consumers will simply hold off from buying either type of DVDs until one format triumphs over the other before they commit to any one system.


As a result, in closing on the Tokyo Stock Exchange Wednesday, share prices in both companies took a hit. Toshiba shares fell 4 yen, or 0.91 percent, to end at 436, while Sony's share price tumbled 50 yen, or 1.34 percent, to close at 3,690
 

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"Suppose they gave a format war and nobody came?"


Both groups are counting on early adopters to take a chance on their format. This is unrealistic in this case.


I, for one, do not intend to invest until the issue is clarified and everyone is behind a single format. I intend to make the same recommendation to everyone I know.


I doubt that either format is going to get much support as long as this situation obtains.


BTW the situation is not like Beta vs. VHS. Back then, there were no alternatives for consumer video, so people had to try one of the two formats. Today, we have a lot of existing options, so there is little incentive for consumers to enlist for either side.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith
"Suppose they gave a format war and nobody came?"


Both groups are counting on early adopters to take a chance on their format. This is unrealistic in this case.


I, for one, do not intend to invest until the issue is clarified and everyone is behind a single format. I intend to make the same recommendation to everyone I know.


I doubt that either format is going to get much support as long as this situation obtains.


BTW the situation is not like Beta vs. VHS. Back then, there were no alternatives for consumer video, so people had to try one of the two formats. Today, we have a lot of existing options, so there is little incentive for consumers to enlist for either side.
There are alternatives for consumer video, but not for consumer HD video. And people aren't going to hold off on buying PS3s because of the potential format war. The war is already over, Toshiba apparently just doesn't realize it yet.
 

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Here's what I posted in another thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843
I wonder if we had a poll today.................


-2 Formats

-No component above 480p (if that)

-Have to be online for DRM

-1000 & up for players

-30 & up for limited number of movies

-Major studios locked into one format


Who steps up then??
To expound on this:

Advantages of plain old DVD
  1. Relatively cheap prerecorded media (at least initially). Obviously, at least initially, prerecorded HD content will be priced higher than DVD content.
  2. Relatively cheap blank recordable media (at least initially) - BR/HD-DVD may take years to come down in price (look @ dual layer DVD blanks).
  3. Cheap players and recorders (even the PS/3 will be pricey initially, and will not be optimized for movies).
  4. No DRM hassles (downrezzing component inputs, internet verification, disabling players, copy once/copy never content, etc.).
  5. One widely used format for players and media (with only minor region specific incompatibilities). People know that their investment is "safe".
  6. Regarding #5 above, simplified inventory/store shelf stocking of media and players for retailers/renters.
  7. Good enough picture - a huge improvement over VHS/Beta; for most people, including most of my friends & coworkers, it is described as "HD-like". I've heard it described that way for a well mastered DVD on these boards. My parents are just getting into DVD (and finally dumping VHS). They are still on a 4:3 set, as are most of my friends/relatives.
  8. Good enough sound - most people don't yet have 5.1 surround, and many that do have a
 

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The advantage of Blu-ray and HD-DVD's picture quality superiority should not be underestimated. DVD picture quality is generally far superior to any other SD consumer format or distribution method (the only ones that are comparable are Laser Discs and C-band analog satellite). I am hoping the HD disc formats will have a similar quality advantage over broadcast and (especially) satellite HD consumer signals as they are today.


(By the way, I DO own the first Sony Betamax, the LV-1901, as well as an EVD-9500

ED Beta recorder. Oh yeah, and a Magnavision VH8000, and a Pioneer VP1000...)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel
Here's what I posted in another thread...




To expound on this:

Advantages of plain old DVD
  1. Relatively cheap prerecorded media (at least initially). Obviously, at least initially, prerecorded HD content will be priced higher than DVD content.
  2. Relatively cheap blank recordable media (at least initially) - BR/HD-DVD may take years to come down in price (look @ dual layer DVD blanks).
  3. Cheap players and recorders (even the PS/3 will be pricey initially, and will not be optimized for movies).
  4. No DRM hassles (downrezzing component inputs, internet verification, disabling players, copy once/copy never content, etc.).
  5. One widely used format for players and media (with only minor region specific incompatibilities). People know that their investment is "safe".
  6. Regarding #5 above, simplified inventory/store shelf stocking of media and players for retailers/renters.
  7. Good enough picture - a huge improvement over VHS/Beta; for most people, including most of my friends & coworkers, it is described as "HD-like". I've heard it described that way for a well mastered DVD on these boards. My parents are just getting into DVD (and finally dumping VHS). They are still on a 4:3 set, as are most of my friends/relatives.
  8. Good enough sound - most people don't yet have 5.1 surround, and many that do have a
 
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