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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is in regards to newer tube TV's, analog or otherwise. People on the Samsung Slimfit thread are very worried about black bar burn-in, ie from displaying DVD's or HD content that produces black bars on 4:3 or 16:9 TV's. I for one just don't believe things until I see them, and so I ask, does anyone have a picture of this kind of screen aging?
 

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It takes a VERY long time to see any burn-in. A long time of watching only letterboxed movies.


We're talking 10 years and up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fugiot /forum/post/12983828


It takes a VERY long time to see any burn-in. A long time of watching only letterboxed movies.


We're talking 10 years and up.

I believe this as well, however Samsung seems to think their Slimfit models should only be used to display black bars for 15% of overall viewing
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12984232


I believe this as well, however Samsung seems to think their Slimfit models should only be used to display black bars for 15% of overall viewing

haha, yeah, I don't think so.


The only 2 CRTs I've ever seen burn-in on were an old "1942" arcade-game machine that had the big "1942" logo burnt in after 20 years, and an old console TV that I bought for $20 from an old lady who always left the channel number sitting in the corner leaving a purple "88" burnt-in.
 

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I don't notice any letter box burn in on either of my 4:3 HD CRTs One is a 7 year old RCA MM36100 and the other is a 3 year old Sony 36kd955xs


The place I would worry about burn in would be for viewing photos, which on both of these sets I view in full 4:3 high resolution. They still are great at displaying these photos. I can't imagine burn in being a critical thing for viewing SD material - and a non issue on letter boxed HD


And most of my viewing on both sets is HD letter boxed so there has been plenty of opportunity for burn-in


(Edit - above comments were relative to viewing on a 4:3 HDTV)
 

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I had a Pioneer Elite 60- 4.3 rptv, with burn-in marks from using it with a webtv box. These were vertical lines on R & L edges. They were very noticable on a solid color screen such as a blue screen. It only took 3 years for them to show up. Which is why I use zoom or stretch for 4.3 content on my present Mits. 65 16x9 rptv. Once they are there my eyes would always gravitate to them. Free advice to anyone--fill the screen on a CRT.---My owner manual says bars should occur less than 10% of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by avguygeorge /forum/post/12989169


I had a Pioneer Elite 60- 4.3 rptv, with burn-in marks from using it with a webtv box. These were vertical lines on R & L edges. They were very noticable on a solid color screen such as a blue screen. It only took 3 years for them to show up. Which is why I use zoom or stretch for 4.3 content on my present Mits. 65 16x9 rptv. Once they are there my eyes would always gravitate to them. Free advice to anyone--fill the screen on a CRT.---My owner manual says bars should occur less than 10% of the time.

And so you should on a Rear Projection. Burned an Elite? Ouch. But, we are talking about Direct View Tube TV's such as a Sony Trinitron, not Rear Projection TV's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan /forum/post/12990005


My 4:3 Sony SDTV is in "16:9 enhanced" mode about 80% of the time. I'm not worried about burn-in.


Yeah, lets talk about that, because I always find it interesting. So, you have a 4:3 TV that has a max vertical resolution of 480 interlaced. You display a DVD, and depending on what you read, you lose anywhere from 23-33% of the resolution, which is apparently wasted on the black bars. You enable vertical compression or 16:9 mode, and it squeezes that resolution back into the frame. So, given the fact that the TV can only display 480 lines, then those phosphors aren't lighting up at the top and bottom where the black bars are, right? Hence, they can't be aging in that area.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12990509


Yeah, lets talk about that, because I always find it interesting. So, you have a 4:3 TV that has a max vertical resolution of 480 interlaced. You display a DVD, and depending on what you read, you lose anywhere from 23-33% of the resolution, which is apparently wasted on the black bars. You enable vertical compression or 16:9 mode, and it squeezes that resolution back into the frame. So, given the fact that the TV can only display 480 lines, then those phosphors aren't lighting up at the top and bottom where the black bars are, right? Hence, they can't be aging in that area.


I don't know about Mechanical Man's set - but for the 36 inch SFP HD variant Sony, went a new way with letter boxing and squeezed the 540 or so lines into the letter box so no loss of vertical resolution -


The black bars are not scanned black on such a set - there are no scan lines there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphArch /forum/post/12991136


I don't know about Mechanical Man's set - but for the 36 inch SFP HD variant Sony, went a new way with letter boxing and squeezed the 540 or so lines into the letter box so no loss of vertical resolution -


The black bars are not scanned black on such a set - there are no scan lines there.


Yeah, it automatically does it on the 36xs models and you can't disable it I don't think. But, again in theory, you would think that if they can shut off that area, that on a widescreen CRT, they could also shut off the pillarbox area during 4:3 playback. But, going back to it, you would think it would be the same for a Plasma or Rear Projection on Letterbox.


For example, if the Plasma is max 1080p and you display a 2.35:1 HD-DVD on it, are the lines of resolution being wasted on the black bars? If they aren't, and the full 1080 lines are displayed within the 2.35:1 Letterbox, then the black bars aren't being scanned. I guess the theory there would be that the 2.35:1 letterbox area is aging faster now by lighting up, while the black bar area isn't aging at all. I guess in that case the middle of the screen would become brighter than the top and bottom.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12991263


...then the black bars aren't being scanned. I guess the theory there would be that the 2.35:1 letterbox area is aging faster now by lighting up, while the black bar area isn't aging at all. I guess in that case the middle of the screen would become brighter than the top and bottom.

If I am following you correctly than no, it would be just the opposite. The electron beams hitting the phosphor on the face of a CRT tube is what makes a picture tube "glow". If you burn the phosphor off in an area, there will be less of it in that area and thus not "glow" as brightly as other areas.
 

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The term burn in is confusing as not many people have an image "burnt" into the screen. The term covers "uneven phosphor wear". This I have on the 2.5 year old Sony KD-34XS955 I have. The pillar bars are a different shade.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12991263


......For example, if the Plasma is max 1080p and you display a 2.35:1 HD-DVD on it, are the lines of resolution being wasted on the black bars?......

Yes, they are. AFAIK, vertical compression, as it is being discussed here, is a 4:3 CRT function only.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12989338


And so you should on a Rear Projection. Burned an Elite? Ouch. But, we are talking about Direct View Tube TV's such as a Sony Trinitron, not Rear Projection TV's.

I believe RP CRTs are more prone to burn-in because of the indirect way in which the video is displayed. The crts are fairly small, 7-9 inches, and require a fair amount of drive in order to display with acceptable intensity on the front panel of the set. This high drive level, coupled with not illuminating the black pillars, results in uneven wear and burn-in of the center portion of the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan /forum/post/12990005


My 4:3 Sony SDTV is in "16:9 enhanced" mode about 80% of the time. I'm not worried about burn-in.

The chances of burn-in are much reduced if the white level (contrast) is kept to appropriate levels.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by raouliii /forum/post/12991805


I believe RP CRTs are more prone to burn-in because of the indirect way in which the video is displayed. The crts are fairly small, 7-9 inches, and require a fair amount of drive in order to display with acceptable intensity on the front panel of the set. This high drive level, coupled with not illuminating the black pillars, results in uneven wear and burn-in of the center portion of the screen.


The chances of burn-in are much reduced if the white level (contrast) is kept to appropriate levels.

Yes, basically, any projection TV (front or rear projection) must produce a much brighter image in order to be blown up to size and maintain good brightness and color. This is accomplished by increasing the brightness of the tubes which is accomplished by scanning more electrons across them. The more electrons the faster the TV will burn in. Thus, projection TVs are more susceptible to burn in and will wear unevenly faster than a conventional direct-view TV if, as you say, the direct-view set is adjusted properly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by raouliii /forum/post/12991708


Yes, they are. AFAIK, vertical compression, as it is being discussed here, is a 4:3 CRT function only.


So you are saying that 16:9 content has more vertical lines of resolution than 2.35:1 content?

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googleme7 /forum/post/12992915


So you are saying that 16:9 content has more vertical lines of resolution than 2.35:1 content?

I am assuming the image attached to your post is a screen capture of an HD (DVD/BluRay/HD channel) 2.35:1 ratio movie. I am saying that the black bars are made up of a portion of the 1080 lines. If my calculations are correct, I believe about 262 lines are used by the black bars (131 lines per bar) and the rest (818 lines) are the movie content. The black bars are actually part of the 16:9 HD frame.


Lines of content = (1080 x 1.78)/2.35
 
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