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Discussion Starter #1
Well, just finished reading the review in HTM about the Lexicon MC12 and ...well...it was like the reviewer saw the second coming of christ !!


I am curious of those who actually have one or those who have done a complete test of this nice unit..


I am interested but will probably go for a Balance Version when they become available.


My questions :

1. Surround mode : I presume these are as good if not better then the MC1 Ihad for approx 60 days.


2. 2-CH Music : (really interested in this) what is the feed back on this, has there been an improvemnt. ..yes some may argue that it was great to start, I am the opinion that there was much to be desired. I presently have a Mark Levinson 380S with a DAC. Could the Lexicon displace this combo


3. Any bugs ? Like all new Pre/pro built from the ground up, are there lots and is it best to wait a few months ?


4. Zones, I have a bit of an issue how it was implememnted within the MC1, has this been resolved ?


5. Anything else you care to add ?


thanks...Matt
 

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"1. Surround mode : I presume these are as good if not better then the MC1 Ihad for approx 60 days. "


The MC-12 doesn't have the reverb modes or Panorama and Music Surround of the MC-1. Lexicon will be adding newer versions of the into the MC-12 at a later date.


The various Logic 7 flavors are *mostly* improved. L7TV can have problems on some broadcast material, Lexicon is looking into this. The 5.1 flavors of L7 are improved across the board with no problems. L7 Music (Music Logic on MC-1) is improved as is L7 Film.


" what is the feed back on this, has there been an improvemnt. ."


Yes, the MC-12 is more detailed then the MC-1. If you check the Lexicon forum you can see the results of a double blind ABX test I did comparing the two.


"3. Any bugs ? Like all new Pre/pro built from the ground up, are there lots and is it best to wait a few months ?"


There are a few issues (mostly having to do with the speed the unit reacts to changes) but not major useability issues. Lexicon is planning on a free software upgrade somewhere 1st quarter 2002 to address the known issues.


"4. Zones, I have a bit of an issue how it was implememnted within the MC1, has this been resolved ? "


What was your issues? The MC-12 is much more flexible in the zones then the MC-1. It has dedicated DACs for the two zones so it is possible to listen to different digital sources in all the zones. There is still a limit with DD/DTS sources though but the MC-12 can also autoswitch to the analog inputs if needed in those cases.


BTW, the MC-12B has been shipping for awhile now.


Shawn
 

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"Question # 2 seems to get overlooked in every forum. How is the 2 channel?"


Re-read my post, I answered it.


Shawn
 

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Quote:
Surround mode : I presume these are as good if not better then the MC1 I had for approx 60 days.
Good? Having Logic 7 and Pro Logic II in one box is GREAT!


There have been many versions of Logic 7 as it has been constantly refined throughout the years. Which version is better ultimately comes down to personal tastes. The latest version can be found in the MC-12 & MC-12B and, having lived with an MC-12 now for a few weeks, I would not want to go back to any other version of Logic 7.


Even though I've been listening to L7 since the DC-1 came out, I've always thought that the best frontal soundstage presentation (i.e., steering 2 channels of sound over 3 speakers) was done by Meridian. The new L7 has that same rock solid stability up front that always impressed me about TriField. And in the surrounds: this is the closest I've heard L7 come to sounding like discrete multi-channel.


As for anomilies; yeah, there are a few, but Lexicon is already looking into them. Remember, no matrix decoding process is perfect. For every recording you can find that can trip up Logic 7, there are ones that can do the same to PLII, TriField, Circle Surround, etc. And for each recording that can cause any of those matrix decoders to hiccup, there are literally thousands of recordings that can make all of them sound absolutely amazing!


Besides, while I personally prefer Logic 7 over PLII, it's not about one vs the other. If you are interested in surround modes, don't buy an MC-12 to find out which one is better; buy it so you can have both!


Best,

Sanjay
 

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You are right Shawn. Every other point you made was so well numbered, that I overlooked this one. Can you answer this portion though: "I presently have a Mark Levinson 380S with a DAC. Could the Lexicon displace this combo"?

Thanks.
 

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"Can you answer this portion though: "I presently have a Mark Levinson 380S with a DAC. Could the Lexicon displace this combo"?"


No idea. If you feel like sending them my way I'd certainly be willing to double blind level matched ABX test them against the MC-12. :)


Even still though you best option would be to borrow a MC-12 from your dealer and compare it (levels matched) against what you currently have.


Shawn
 

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Sanjay,


"The new L7 has that same rock solid stability up front"


Yes! It is much improved. In Music Logic I tended to adjust the 'Center Level' parameter to suit the recording. The new Logic 7 Music has no need for that any more.


The steering can also bring performers out into the room more then in Music Logic and it does an even better job of recreating the feel of the acoustic space.


"As for anomilies; yeah, there are a few, but Lexicon is already looking into them."


Yup, I'm sure they will tweak it further. The Logic 7 in the MC-12 is very much re-written from the ground up for the SHARCs and I bet over time they will be taking more and more advantage of all that DSP power.


Shawn
 

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Shawn,

I read your abx comments shortly after you posted them and thought you performed a careful well thought out test. Good job.


I find it interesting that your abx results confirmed what several have reported in the past about the "musicality" of the MC-1 lacking in regards to some of its competitors. Some of those folks (here and on other sites) got their case jumped for stating their beliefs without having done carefully level matching listening comparisons. I hope that we all learned something from this......(Note - I do not wish to introduce a thread drift here so if there is going to be a protracted discussion I suggest a new thread be started).


Matt,

I think the AVP 2 will be quite an improvement over the AVP (do you still have an AVP?) and I've heard that Logic 7 might very well be an optional extra (at additional cost) for the AVP 2 (I'm sure you know it will be included on the Levinson). The AVP 2 will be similar to the Levinson in many regards (for example, it will use the same DACs for the L & R channels as the Levinson and will likely have 4 SHARC DSP's, etc). It will also include many new surround modes (i.e., DPL II, and the latest DD and DTS modes). I'm confident that the Proceed won't permit the tweaking of each surround mode that the MC-12 gives users though. I was very tempted to buy the MC-12 but am now in a holding pattern awaiting the AVP2 (but I may end up with an MC-12B once the AVP2 details shake out). I haven't yet heard the MC-12 (for fear of wanting one immediately) but think it's a great architecture - if they have resolved the 2 channel sound they have hit an outta the park home run with the MC-12.....You probably owe it to yourself to audition one in your home...
 

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Geof,


"I find it interesting that your abx results confirmed what several have reported in the past about the "musicality" of the MC-1 lacking in regards to some of its competitors."


How does my test do that?


All my test did was demonstrate that in my system there was a sonic difference between the MC-1 and the MC-12. The area I heard a difference in was in the level of detail between the two.


I don't think I've ever seen detail be called 'musicality.' In fact they are usually mutually exclusive IME. More detail makes great recordings shine through but lousy recordings sound worse. 'Musicality' IMO is more of a coloration which keeps the lousy stuff from sounding horrible but holds back the great material.


"got their case jumped for stating their beliefs without having done carefully level matching listening comparisons."


You should, the first time you do a level matched comparison will be an eye+ear opening experience for you.


"and I have heard that Logic 7 might very well be an optional (at additional cost) extra for the AVP 2 (as you know it will be included on the Levinson). "


Not according to Lexicon. They licensed Logic 7 to be included in the #40 only.


Shawn
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Geof
I've heard that Logic 7 might very well be an optional extra (at additional cost) for the AVP 2 (I'm sure you know it will be included on the Levinson).
As I noted when you posted this FUD two weeks ago on SMR, I contacted Lexicon's Bart LoPiccolo, who confirmed that Logic 7 is absolutely not licensed for the AVP II. The Levinson Model 40 is the only Madrigal product licensed for Logic 7.


Would you mind either identifying your source for this rumor or else stop posting it?


Thanks,

Philip Brandes
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hey Geof


I do have the AVP still and I am invited tonight to a special eveing by invitation to my dealership. He has the AVP, 380S and the MC12 in the same room in side by side racks..so it should be interetsing.


I asked him the same question about the Levinson 380S and he told me that as much as he wants to sell me a MC12B, he says that he still preferes the 380S with a transport approach. He told me that the noisefloor is much better. However he did say that the MC12 was so improved that the only way to find out was to take one home....hummm...OK !


So I will attempt to do that over the next month or so.


As for Logic 7 and the AVPII, the AVPII is still many months away and licencing may happen later. I had also heard that " it maybe" will be included, but lots can happen between now and end Q2 2002 when the AVPII is slated.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mzn50


As for Logic 7 and the AVPII, the AVPII is still many months away and licencing may happen later. I had also heard that " it maybe" will be included, but lots can happen between now and end Q2 2002 when the AVPII is slated.
And who did you hear this from, Matt? I find it very interesting that people have such fascination for spreading these rumors, in spite of the fact that Lexicon flatly denies them. It is Lexicon's proprietary technology, after all, and they should know their own licensing arrangements. At $35K, the Levinson No. 40 is no threat to any Lexicon product price point, whereas the AVP is a direct competitor. I also find it very interesting that no one who has ever heard these rumors has ever attributed them to a credible source.


You're right about one thing, though--a lot can happen between now and the end of Q2 2002. From the rumors I've heard, Proceed gear is the last place I'd want to put my money. Let's see whose rumors turn out to be accurate, shall we?


Cheers,

Philip Brandes
 

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It's just wishful thinking and I don't understand it myself. PLII is a widely distributed format that most if not all processors will include and I 'm sure the Proceed piece will have it. Why not be happy with that?
 

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Well Phillip all I can say is that Matt said it all - I believe you when you say it's not now licensed but alot can happen between now and the AVPII release. FYI, you can read this for yourself here (post number 4). Oh, and thank you for your suggestions as to what I should and should not post. I will take that into account. Perhaps I should send you a listing of all my posts so you can police all of them for me.


Shawn,

The fact that you clearly identified audible differences a statistically relevent number of times between the MC1 and MC-12 clearly shows there is an audible difference between those two processors. I think it safe to say that is because the MC1 is lacking in its ability (or are you arguing that the MC1 sounds better than the MC-12?). Whether you choose to agree with the musicality term is up to you but by that I was intending to mean clarity, detail, depth, soundstanging, etc.


Matt,

I'll be very very interested in hearing your impressions of the MC-12 after auditioning it in your home.
 

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Geof,


"The fact that you clearly identified audible differences a statistically relevent number of times between the MC1 and MC-12 clearly shows there is an audible difference between those two processors."


Yes, never said it didn't. It fact it *proves* there is a difference between the two. That is, however, all it shows.


You were claiming this difference somehow relates to how either processor performs compared against the competition. This is a 'leap' in logic and can't be accurately claimed. By the same 'logic' if the AVP2 sounds better then the AVP then the AVP must be inferior to its competition. Obviously this isn't an accurate statement as they only comparison is between the two.


If you want to know how either compares against another processor setup a level matched double blind ABX test and find out.


Shawn
 

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Yeah, we can run around this issue all day long but this is thread drift so I am not responding to anymore out of topic discussions...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Geof
Well Phillip all I can say is that Matt said it all - I believe you when you say it's not now licensed but alot can happen between now and the AVPII release.
Yes, and by that logic pigs can fly and the Earth can reverse its rotational direction tomorrow. Nevertheless, there is no rational reason why Lexicon would license its most significant market advantage to a direct competitor, and they have denied any intention to do so. So in the realm of probability, this would have to be considered very unlikely.


Quote:
FYI, you can read this for yourself here (post number 4).
Thanks for the link. So you're repeating a rumor posted by someone else (also with no authoritative credentials) who says he heard it from Proceed. As opposed to a direct denial from Lexicon's Head of Consumer Sales. Hmmmm--I wonder which is the more credible report?


If Proceed is in fact spreading this rumor around, it is only a further sign of their desperation.


Quote:
Oh, and thank you for your suggestions as to what I should and should not post. I will take that into account. Perhaps I should send you a listing of all my posts so you can police all of them for me.
You are entirely welcome, Geoff. As a rational person, I'm sure you are no more happy about the posting of misleading rumors than I am. While I simply offered an opinion about the posting of information you know from a previous exchange to be inaccurate, and never tried to enforce any police action, I would be happy to pre-screen any of your posts for accuracy if you request my assistance.


Quote:
Shawn,

The fact that you clearly identified audible differences a statistically relevent number of times between the MC1 and MC-12 clearly shows there is an audible difference between those two processors. I think it safe to say that is because the MC1 is lacking in its ability (or are you arguing that the MC1 sounds better than the MC-12?). Whether you choose to agree with the musicality term is up to you but by that I was intending to mean clarity, detail, depth, soundstanging, etc.
This has nothing to do with a semantic distinction. You have deliberately ignored the other interpretation--the one which Shawn himself states was his actual intention--which is that there is nothing wrong with the MC-1 relative to its competition, only that there was a statistically significant difference in comparison with a product with an architecture that is several years more recent and lists for 50% more.


You know perfectly well from his many posts in this forum that Shawn has never faulted the MC-1's performance, and on the contrary has vigorously debated the issue with those who claimed otherwise. So your "interpretation" of his results as somehow validating others' criticisms is particularly intellectually dishonest. About on the same level as repeatedly posting a rumor about Lexicon's licensing plans for Logic 7 without mentioning the fact that Lexicon has denied it, though you know full well that they have. No wonder you have chosen to withdraw from the discussion--it's so much more convenient to duck out on the fallout from the grenades you yourself have launched.


Cheers,

Philip Brandes
 

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Phillip,

With all due respect please drop the smug attitude.

Quote:
About on the same level as repeatedly posting a rumor about Lexicon's licensing plans for Logic 7 without mentioning the fact that Lexicon has denied it, though you know full well that they have.
Just to clarify - I do not read all of the posts on SMR and today is the VERY FIRST TIME I read that Lexicon has denied this rumor. Had I read your SMR post I would have qualified the statement I made earlier. Your ASSUMPTION that I knew this from a previous exchange is utterly FALSE.


I do not want to continue this thread drift except to say I maintain that (IMO) Shawn's findings vindicate earlier reports by other users that the MC1 lacks in the sound quality dept. NOWHERE did I say (or imply) that Shawn thinks this is the case - that is how I intrepret the results (as you say: "So your "interpretation" of his results"). That's my opinion and if you and he choose not to accept that then fine, but let's get back to the subject at hand.
 
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