Lexicon MC1 or Outlaw 950?
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Although I'm sure the Outlaw is going to be a nice piece when it rolls out,I doubt it is in the MC-1`s class.unless there is a certain feature you are looking for on the Outlaw that the MC-1 does not have,for 2300 the MC-1 is a good price,although AV I think had them for 2,000 or so.
for strait HT in a 7.1 set-up(L7)the Lexicon is still hard to beat.and at 2300 maybe IMPOSSIBLE to beat.
if you can afford it go for it,
PS,this is MY opinion only,
ts
for strait HT in a 7.1 set-up(L7)the Lexicon is still hard to beat.and at 2300 maybe IMPOSSIBLE to beat.
if you can afford it go for it,
PS,this is MY opinion only,
ts
Well, 1)...Nobody knows how the Outlaw sounds so it's all guesswork from anyone.
mercury here doubts it will be in the same class. Uh, too bad he doesn't say any reasons whatsoever why, or even how he defines 'class'. Those kinda opinions I just don't dig.
You could 'guess' (but now there's even more guessing) he means sound quality since that's obviously most people's prime concern in audio equipt. but maybe he also means other things like style, build, remote, etc.
Or maybe he means he just thinks it's won't be as good 'cuz it's so much cheaper than a new and even a used 'Lexicon'.
The Outlaw's not made in the USA (you could call that a minus point too though) so it's cheaper.
They only sell on the net so it's additionally cheaper.
They don't have the well known/regarded name Lexicon so they're addition ally cheaper.
The chips and wires inside any of these machines aren't super costly, they just need to be implemented very carefully in design. Can Outlaw do that? -who knows-.
An excellent preamp for $900 that can compare closely to the MC-1 IS perfectly do-able. Is it the Outlaw 950?
We don't know yet, but it looks like it very much will be based off of what Outlaw's been writing about it. And they strike me as very open, straightforward, and far from boastly hype-makers.
I actually saw the MC-1 earlier for $2000 used here at AVS's .com store, and was thinking about it, though I've pretty much made up my mind to get that Outlaw 950 which'll be both new and less than half the price. Major pluses both IMO.
The Outlaw more than holds up feature-wise compared to the older Lex. It's fully decked out, though I'm sure you've read for yourself what it's all got in it.
Lex has it's Logic7, but lots of people say DPLII can match it. Logic7 is mainly Lex's biggest exclusive feature.
Outlaw's using some top 24/192 DAC chips from Cirrus Logic, and Outlaw's claiming that the s/n ratio and other such general specs'll easily hold up against much more expensive systems.
Put those together and you can 'guess' that it'll compete strongly 'at the very least' with the MC-1 in the DAC/sound qual. in general department.
Beyond that, the debates'll probably never end even after it comes out. Just like nothing ever ends here.
You can find people who all say that their preamp sounds totally incredible. Integra, TAG, B&K, Meridian, Lexicon, Anthem, Sunfire, Krell (from $2K-$8k+) etc...
I personally believe most of these opinions to be quite valid. Most, if not nearly all the people here, are just trying to inform, and not brag or lie.
You can read pro reviews that call the TAG better than the Lex, or equal to. Or the B&K's as good as a Lex or as a Meridian. Or that the Integra and Meridian are better than all the others. blah, blah, blah, etc...
The specs on ALL of these models are near perfect.
Unless you get to hear them all for yourself with all the major variables of your own system (speakers, room layout, amps etc.) you'll never really know what's better than what, no matter what people tell you.
I say get the Outlaw, take it to a shop that has some other great pre/pros to compare it too so that all the other equipt. is the same for the test, and if it doesn't hold up well enough, you'll still be able to get a used MC-1 when you return the Outlaw. Then you'll know fore sure. No guessin'!
mercury here doubts it will be in the same class. Uh, too bad he doesn't say any reasons whatsoever why, or even how he defines 'class'. Those kinda opinions I just don't dig.
You could 'guess' (but now there's even more guessing) he means sound quality since that's obviously most people's prime concern in audio equipt. but maybe he also means other things like style, build, remote, etc.
Or maybe he means he just thinks it's won't be as good 'cuz it's so much cheaper than a new and even a used 'Lexicon'.
The Outlaw's not made in the USA (you could call that a minus point too though) so it's cheaper.
They only sell on the net so it's additionally cheaper.
They don't have the well known/regarded name Lexicon so they're addition ally cheaper.
The chips and wires inside any of these machines aren't super costly, they just need to be implemented very carefully in design. Can Outlaw do that? -who knows-.
An excellent preamp for $900 that can compare closely to the MC-1 IS perfectly do-able. Is it the Outlaw 950?
We don't know yet, but it looks like it very much will be based off of what Outlaw's been writing about it. And they strike me as very open, straightforward, and far from boastly hype-makers.
I actually saw the MC-1 earlier for $2000 used here at AVS's .com store, and was thinking about it, though I've pretty much made up my mind to get that Outlaw 950 which'll be both new and less than half the price. Major pluses both IMO.
The Outlaw more than holds up feature-wise compared to the older Lex. It's fully decked out, though I'm sure you've read for yourself what it's all got in it.
Lex has it's Logic7, but lots of people say DPLII can match it. Logic7 is mainly Lex's biggest exclusive feature.
Outlaw's using some top 24/192 DAC chips from Cirrus Logic, and Outlaw's claiming that the s/n ratio and other such general specs'll easily hold up against much more expensive systems.
Put those together and you can 'guess' that it'll compete strongly 'at the very least' with the MC-1 in the DAC/sound qual. in general department.
Beyond that, the debates'll probably never end even after it comes out. Just like nothing ever ends here.
You can find people who all say that their preamp sounds totally incredible. Integra, TAG, B&K, Meridian, Lexicon, Anthem, Sunfire, Krell (from $2K-$8k+) etc...
I personally believe most of these opinions to be quite valid. Most, if not nearly all the people here, are just trying to inform, and not brag or lie.
You can read pro reviews that call the TAG better than the Lex, or equal to. Or the B&K's as good as a Lex or as a Meridian. Or that the Integra and Meridian are better than all the others. blah, blah, blah, etc...
The specs on ALL of these models are near perfect.
Unless you get to hear them all for yourself with all the major variables of your own system (speakers, room layout, amps etc.) you'll never really know what's better than what, no matter what people tell you.
I say get the Outlaw, take it to a shop that has some other great pre/pros to compare it too so that all the other equipt. is the same for the test, and if it doesn't hold up well enough, you'll still be able to get a used MC-1 when you return the Outlaw. Then you'll know fore sure. No guessin'!
mcgeetn,
In my late night 'rantings' I forgot to address the second half of your question about upgrades.
You should probably mention what you've got right now so people can give you good opinions.
If you get the Outlaw and save over a grand compared to the Lex, you might put the dough towards a set of surrounds and amp to complete the full 7 chan. system that the Outlaw's capable of.
Just 'guessing' that you (like most people -including myself) don't have both side and rear surround speaks already. Lex's 'logic 7' is obviously only 'logic 5' if you don't have the cash to get the MC-1 AND a new surround/amp set.
If you've got the room, I think side dipoles and rear monopoles are the way to go. If you only have the room for one set of surrounds (which I'm guessin' you've already got though) my vote is for rear molopoles since it's much more accurate for music surround.
That grand could also get you new amps to go with that Outlaw.
Outlaw's own 5 chan. amp is in that range (their brand new cables look excellent also), but there are LOTS of great amps in this price range.
I've got two Audiosource AMP-7's that use Tripath's digital amp chip. 200w x 2 @ 8 ohms, about 90% efficient, and they run cooler than my DVD player, and I'm 'az'ryan where is very very hot all the time!
Best deal on 'em now looks like here for about $530 (a tremendous deal IMO)...
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wildwest...iosource1.html
The AMP-7 sorta' a poor man's Bel Canto EVO amp which many pro reviews regard as one of the best amps there is. The Bel Canto's only 150w x 2 though, and waaaaaaay more costly (might think of it as an Outlaw 950 vs. a Lex MC-1??).
Unless all your other 'links' in your audio chain are up to the level of that Lex, you'll most likely get better sound out of the Outlaw + $1000 of 'weakest link' upgrades even IF the Outlaw is clearly worse than the Lex.
Give us some info about what you've already got now! The more info you give, the more helpful us spock-ear-wearin'-geeks-with-no-lives'll be!
In my late night 'rantings' I forgot to address the second half of your question about upgrades.
You should probably mention what you've got right now so people can give you good opinions.
If you get the Outlaw and save over a grand compared to the Lex, you might put the dough towards a set of surrounds and amp to complete the full 7 chan. system that the Outlaw's capable of.
Just 'guessing' that you (like most people -including myself) don't have both side and rear surround speaks already. Lex's 'logic 7' is obviously only 'logic 5' if you don't have the cash to get the MC-1 AND a new surround/amp set.
If you've got the room, I think side dipoles and rear monopoles are the way to go. If you only have the room for one set of surrounds (which I'm guessin' you've already got though) my vote is for rear molopoles since it's much more accurate for music surround.
That grand could also get you new amps to go with that Outlaw.
Outlaw's own 5 chan. amp is in that range (their brand new cables look excellent also), but there are LOTS of great amps in this price range.
I've got two Audiosource AMP-7's that use Tripath's digital amp chip. 200w x 2 @ 8 ohms, about 90% efficient, and they run cooler than my DVD player, and I'm 'az'ryan where is very very hot all the time!
Best deal on 'em now looks like here for about $530 (a tremendous deal IMO)...
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wildwest...iosource1.html
The AMP-7 sorta' a poor man's Bel Canto EVO amp which many pro reviews regard as one of the best amps there is. The Bel Canto's only 150w x 2 though, and waaaaaaay more costly (might think of it as an Outlaw 950 vs. a Lex MC-1??).
Unless all your other 'links' in your audio chain are up to the level of that Lex, you'll most likely get better sound out of the Outlaw + $1000 of 'weakest link' upgrades even IF the Outlaw is clearly worse than the Lex.
Give us some info about what you've already got now! The more info you give, the more helpful us spock-ear-wearin'-geeks-with-no-lives'll be!
First off, either Outlaw or Lex will blow away that Kenwood rec. I can't imagine anyone idsagreeing with that even though no one's heard the Outlaw.
Your Kenwood's totally holding back you great speaks and amps.
Are those 4.0's wood or marble cabinet? Just wonderin'. My 2nd choice for speaks was the 7.0's, but I went with Newform instead (same woofer, VERY diff. tweeters, and little lower price)
Those le amps are supose to be great, I wouldn't upgrade those, bet you can't wait till you hear what they can really do with a mint signal passing into them!
You might wanna get another pair of 4.0's and le amps so you have a 7 chann. system, but....
you didn't mention a sub though?
As many here will tell you, it's a must without full range speaks (and usually recommended even with).
I'd invest in a pair of SVS 'middle sized' (forgot the model #) awesomely flat and low low subs, and a high powered amp (which they also sell).
You'll hear only rave reviews about these killer deal subs.
I personally have two handmade subs based off of a sonotube cabinet and Adire Audio Shiva woofer. It's an SVS clone.
The design is basically a rip off of one Tom V. (SVS designer) had made before he started SVS.
They're incredible. I'm sure the SVS are of better quality, but I put a real maple laminate on mine so they win! -heh
I'd forget about the le amps for sub duty, not enough power for those big spikes of bass, and they're probably too good of quality to waste on a sub. Power is much more important than ultraclean power in the lowest of hertz.
A 5.1 set up'll be better than a 7.0 set up since you'll have a true full range of sound.... if we're still talkin' about what to get with ~$1000 you saved by getting that Outlaw.
Your Kenwood's totally holding back you great speaks and amps.
Are those 4.0's wood or marble cabinet? Just wonderin'. My 2nd choice for speaks was the 7.0's, but I went with Newform instead (same woofer, VERY diff. tweeters, and little lower price)
Those le amps are supose to be great, I wouldn't upgrade those, bet you can't wait till you hear what they can really do with a mint signal passing into them!
You might wanna get another pair of 4.0's and le amps so you have a 7 chann. system, but....
you didn't mention a sub though?
As many here will tell you, it's a must without full range speaks (and usually recommended even with).
I'd invest in a pair of SVS 'middle sized' (forgot the model #) awesomely flat and low low subs, and a high powered amp (which they also sell).
You'll hear only rave reviews about these killer deal subs.
I personally have two handmade subs based off of a sonotube cabinet and Adire Audio Shiva woofer. It's an SVS clone.
The design is basically a rip off of one Tom V. (SVS designer) had made before he started SVS.
They're incredible. I'm sure the SVS are of better quality, but I put a real maple laminate on mine so they win! -heh
I'd forget about the le amps for sub duty, not enough power for those big spikes of bass, and they're probably too good of quality to waste on a sub. Power is much more important than ultraclean power in the lowest of hertz.
A 5.1 set up'll be better than a 7.0 set up since you'll have a true full range of sound.... if we're still talkin' about what to get with ~$1000 you saved by getting that Outlaw.
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1,735 Posts
Neither, purchase a DC2 the next time that AVS has a bunch of trade-ins for 1500 dollars. Purchase a used, quality (rotel or equivalent 5x100 for 600 dollars on audiogon) 5 channel amp to start and upgrade from there. At 2100 dollars this is a killer deal.
Aryzan, without questioning your passion, you cannot possibly minimize the impact of Lex's experstise in software/dsp design. There music modes are not the hokey stuff you see on most lesser priced items. Logic 7 has far greater impact than expanding the enjoyment of 2 channel or Dolby surround encoded material, it has applicability with DTS and DD material as well, while DPL2 does not.
I am sure the the outlaw will be a great product at its price point. I look forward to an objective review
Aryzan, without questioning your passion, you cannot possibly minimize the impact of Lex's experstise in software/dsp design. There music modes are not the hokey stuff you see on most lesser priced items. Logic 7 has far greater impact than expanding the enjoyment of 2 channel or Dolby surround encoded material, it has applicability with DTS and DD material as well, while DPL2 does not.
I am sure the the outlaw will be a great product at its price point. I look forward to an objective review
Don,
I mentioned Logic 7, and ok, no DPLII can't work with DD and DTS, but the main point of both L7 and DPLII are to approximate discrete multi-channels out of stereo content, and both have been called excellent codes -just as Meridina's Trifield has.
So which is the best? -probably only personally opinion can say, but NONE has been called clearly better by 'everyone', or even 'most' people.
Do you really use L7 alot (assuming you've got a Lex) on top of a DTS/DD signal?
I could see it maybe to get 6 or 7 chann. out of a 5.1 soundtrack, but I think Outlaw's preamp can do this too (but not 100% sure, so please nobody flip out if I'm wrong -thanks).
Don, how did I "minimize the impact of Lex's experstise in software/dsp design"?
And why didn't you mention any of these dsps and software innovations other than Logic 7 which I had already mentioned myself?
If you have points to make in favor of the Lex feel free to make them, but to just generalize and act like I'm dismissing the unit is just wrong.
Nobody has excellent dsp modes for things like hall, jazz club, etc. I think Outlaw isn't even putting any of these usless things in because of the poll they took online where most people said leave 'em out.
Does Lexicon ask it's potential customers what they want? Not that it'll make the Outlaw sound better, but it makes be want to support them more than Lex.
Points againt the DC-2 over the Outlaw...
No 5.1 inputs for DVD-A or SACD
(Outlaw has this plus 80hz crossover for all the DVD-A and SACD players with no bass managment -which is currently almost all players). That's a big one for me, and why I didn't get one myself.
No component video switching
(Outlaw's also handles HD which many older designs do not)
Not a big deal for me, the Lex's best video switch is only s-video. That's not the end of the world, but it is outdated.
maybe " mcgeetn" doesn't care about these features and that would make my points usless to him, but other people are reading this too.
Older DACs compared to what the Outlaw will be using.
I freely admit that the Outlaw may still sound worse than the Lex despite having state of the art DAC chips, but I'm kinda thinkin' it sure ain't gonna sound mid-fi or lo-fi when a company like Outlaw's making their first premp and using the best chips they can.
Also either Lex is still more costly AND used.
I know you might think I'm in love with this Outlaw preamp, but I just want to point out what it's got.
So many people have been shooting it down before it's even out because of it low price. They certainly can't shoot it down over it's sound quality 'cuz no one knows, and certainly not over it's features which are tremendous and state of the art.
Does the Lex suck. NO WAY. I'd be nuts to say that, and haven't said that.
You disagree with me. Great. I love a good debate, but when someone disagrees without anything to back it up it ain't much of a debate.
Hell, maybe this Outlaw comes out and i totally sucks. Could happen, but like I told " mcgeetn". Buy it, compare it for yourself, and return it if it's no good!
I mentioned Logic 7, and ok, no DPLII can't work with DD and DTS, but the main point of both L7 and DPLII are to approximate discrete multi-channels out of stereo content, and both have been called excellent codes -just as Meridina's Trifield has.
So which is the best? -probably only personally opinion can say, but NONE has been called clearly better by 'everyone', or even 'most' people.
Do you really use L7 alot (assuming you've got a Lex) on top of a DTS/DD signal?
I could see it maybe to get 6 or 7 chann. out of a 5.1 soundtrack, but I think Outlaw's preamp can do this too (but not 100% sure, so please nobody flip out if I'm wrong -thanks).
Don, how did I "minimize the impact of Lex's experstise in software/dsp design"?
And why didn't you mention any of these dsps and software innovations other than Logic 7 which I had already mentioned myself?
If you have points to make in favor of the Lex feel free to make them, but to just generalize and act like I'm dismissing the unit is just wrong.
Nobody has excellent dsp modes for things like hall, jazz club, etc. I think Outlaw isn't even putting any of these usless things in because of the poll they took online where most people said leave 'em out.
Does Lexicon ask it's potential customers what they want? Not that it'll make the Outlaw sound better, but it makes be want to support them more than Lex.
Points againt the DC-2 over the Outlaw...
No 5.1 inputs for DVD-A or SACD
(Outlaw has this plus 80hz crossover for all the DVD-A and SACD players with no bass managment -which is currently almost all players). That's a big one for me, and why I didn't get one myself.
No component video switching
(Outlaw's also handles HD which many older designs do not)
Not a big deal for me, the Lex's best video switch is only s-video. That's not the end of the world, but it is outdated.
maybe " mcgeetn" doesn't care about these features and that would make my points usless to him, but other people are reading this too.
Older DACs compared to what the Outlaw will be using.
I freely admit that the Outlaw may still sound worse than the Lex despite having state of the art DAC chips, but I'm kinda thinkin' it sure ain't gonna sound mid-fi or lo-fi when a company like Outlaw's making their first premp and using the best chips they can.
Also either Lex is still more costly AND used.
I know you might think I'm in love with this Outlaw preamp, but I just want to point out what it's got.
So many people have been shooting it down before it's even out because of it low price. They certainly can't shoot it down over it's sound quality 'cuz no one knows, and certainly not over it's features which are tremendous and state of the art.
Does the Lex suck. NO WAY. I'd be nuts to say that, and haven't said that.
You disagree with me. Great. I love a good debate, but when someone disagrees without anything to back it up it ain't much of a debate.
Hell, maybe this Outlaw comes out and i totally sucks. Could happen, but like I told " mcgeetn". Buy it, compare it for yourself, and return it if it's no good!
Oh, and Don, why would you recommend that " mcgeetn" get a 5 chan. Rotel or some other 'mystery' model when he has 5 great Norh monoblock amps???
I'm sure he'd like to know this answer too, since he was very smart in asking that people tell him 'why' they recommend something other than just telling him -'you should get this'.
That was part of why I bothered to answer him in the first place.
I know Ive been very wordy in this thread, but please don't think That I feel this Outlaw 950 is the end all to end preamps. NO ONE (that'd include me) KNOWS HOW IT SOUNDS.
I think my main point is that " mcgeetn" could get this brand new unit and compare for himself if it holds up (then best test hands down), and send it back if it didn't. And I'm sure more used DC-2's and MC-1's 'll be available and certainly not have gone up in price.
If he follows Don's advise, ignoring the possability of the 950 being as good (or even close enough at worst) as the several years old used Lex, then he'll never know if he could've gotten a more feature filled excellent preamp for hundreds of dollars less than anything else like it.
And oops, " mcgeetn", I didn't notice when I asked that you DID mention that your Norh's are the marble. Very nice I'm sure!
I'm sure he'd like to know this answer too, since he was very smart in asking that people tell him 'why' they recommend something other than just telling him -'you should get this'.
That was part of why I bothered to answer him in the first place.
I know Ive been very wordy in this thread, but please don't think That I feel this Outlaw 950 is the end all to end preamps. NO ONE (that'd include me) KNOWS HOW IT SOUNDS.
I think my main point is that " mcgeetn" could get this brand new unit and compare for himself if it holds up (then best test hands down), and send it back if it didn't. And I'm sure more used DC-2's and MC-1's 'll be available and certainly not have gone up in price.
If he follows Don's advise, ignoring the possability of the 950 being as good (or even close enough at worst) as the several years old used Lex, then he'll never know if he could've gotten a more feature filled excellent preamp for hundreds of dollars less than anything else like it.
And oops, " mcgeetn", I didn't notice when I asked that you DID mention that your Norh's are the marble. Very nice I'm sure!
I am also wondering what I should buy, but I hesitate between a used DC-1 and an Outlaw 950. Here's how I'm gonna decide:
- wait for the 950 to be available and read the reviews
- eventually order one and compare the stereo sound to my Rotel preamp (only THX DPL).
Outlaw insists they are the only company to offer all the parameters of DPLII, this might be a good way to exploit it at its full potential.
- wait for the 950 to be available and read the reviews
- eventually order one and compare the stereo sound to my Rotel preamp (only THX DPL).
Outlaw insists they are the only company to offer all the parameters of DPLII, this might be a good way to exploit it at its full potential.
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344 Posts
Quote:
Actually, their website says they will be among the "few" processors to offer complete parameters. The information there does indicate it will have a nice feature set at a very reasonable price. Nice to see so much offered at this price level.
Above was the question whether Lexicon users really use the 7-channel implementation on DTS5.1 and DD5.1. I think you will find the vast majority do use the 7-channel enhancement on these, and most probably also prefer this enhancement to the EX option as well. I experiment with various EX encoded discs, but only rarely leave EX on.
Regards,
Will
| Originally posted by hobby1 Outlaw insists they are the only company to offer all the parameters of DPLII, this might be a good way to exploit it at its full potential. |
Above was the question whether Lexicon users really use the 7-channel implementation on DTS5.1 and DD5.1. I think you will find the vast majority do use the 7-channel enhancement on these, and most probably also prefer this enhancement to the EX option as well. I experiment with various EX encoded discs, but only rarely leave EX on.
Regards,
Will
azryan-I planned not to respond to this thread again as to many threads involving Lexicon just plan get out of hand
About DPLII vs. L7 the only way as of now to hear both is an MC-12,every person iv spoke with and read have stated that dplII for now is a non issue compared to L7,however when DPLII goes to 7.1 I'm sure that will change
Azryan,have you ever heard L7,the only reason I ask is your question of"DO YOU REALLY USE L7 ALOT"
Also I feel that unless you CAN setup a proper 7.1 speaker setup, fronts,surrounds,center,sides and a sub you wont be getting the best out of your Lex,so therefore money might be better spent else where,that's my opinion only.
having said that,I truly believe that L7 set up with 7.1 speakers will leave you at times breathless.sounds of birds,footsteps,people talking,wind and so forth coming from your sides is at times awesome,once you hear it you hooked,when DPLII gets it that will also hook you.after that 5.1 will never sound the same again.
And please these are my opinions only.
tommy
About DPLII vs. L7 the only way as of now to hear both is an MC-12,every person iv spoke with and read have stated that dplII for now is a non issue compared to L7,however when DPLII goes to 7.1 I'm sure that will change
Azryan,have you ever heard L7,the only reason I ask is your question of"DO YOU REALLY USE L7 ALOT"
Also I feel that unless you CAN setup a proper 7.1 speaker setup, fronts,surrounds,center,sides and a sub you wont be getting the best out of your Lex,so therefore money might be better spent else where,that's my opinion only.
having said that,I truly believe that L7 set up with 7.1 speakers will leave you at times breathless.sounds of birds,footsteps,people talking,wind and so forth coming from your sides is at times awesome,once you hear it you hooked,when DPLII gets it that will also hook you.after that 5.1 will never sound the same again.
And please these are my opinions only.
tommy
Please excuse my ignorance, but does the proprietary Lexicon Logic 7 decode the rear surrounds as discrete or mono? If they are mono, how does this differ from Outlaw's "Cirris Extra Surround" mode which sends separate mono signals to the 2 rear surrounds to give you 7.1? They sound like the same thing to me.
tommy,
What I asked was "Do you really use L7 -A LOT ON TOP OF A DTS/DD SIGNAL-?"
I wasn't just asking 'do you use L7 much' -like it's some kinda cheesy dsp mode implying Lex owners rarely use it.
I realize that it's a super great feature, but that wasn't my question.
Why did you post this 'misquoted' comment I made, but don't bother to address my remark about how you dismissed the Outlaw without mentioning any reasons 'why'?
I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but your choice of comments seems 'funny' to put it lightly.
We can certainly disagree about something without things getting out of hand.
You wrote,
About DPLII vs. L7 -the only way as of now to hear both is an MC-12
I say,
Why do both codes have to be inside the exact same unit to compare them? I can see it helping, as in less variables, but for a 'real world' preference test (unless you're planning on getting an MC-12), a test between say a TAG and a MC-1 DPLII vs. L7 seems fair enough to me?
You added,
every person iv spoke with and read have stated that dplII for now is a non issue compared to L7,however when DPLII goes to 7.1 I'm sure that will change.
I say,
I'm sure your long debates with Bob Sorel contradict this easily enough.
And 'a non issue'? What do you mean by that?
You could certainly compare L7 in a 5.1 chan. setup with a 5.1 DPLII setup, and since the steering code's are of the same style 'so to speak' for each surround dsp, you should be able to pick a 7.1 winner based off of your 5.1 preference.
There's still the debate over monopole/dipole surround speakers that would effect this DPLII/L7 challenge.
Also, speaker brands could change dsp preferences.
Additionally some people don't have a room to effectivly set up a 7.1 system. Small rooms w/ 5.1 systems can produce solid surround fields that a 7.1 system packed into it wouldn't improve upon.
Your remarks about this breathless 7.1 soundfield you have sounds great, but then you say you'll also get this with DPLII once it's 7.1
This implies that you're saying that DPLII is AS GOOD a dsp, but that the 2 extra surround speaks is what counts.
Do you have dipoles or monopole surrounds or a mix? What brand speaks? What room size? Distance from all speaks?
I'm not actually asking for answers to these questions, just making the point that if you're saying the 2 extra speakers make all the diff. then all these variables are also critical, and the DPLII vs. L7 code becomes meaningless.
Personally, my front speaks (Newform Research R645) in my med sized room can project a soundfield that with well recorded material (say -Amused to Death by Roger Waters) sounds 'almost' like true discrete surround. Used with my rear placed Newforms and DD/DTS, I have a totally solid discrete surround system in a 4.1 (no center) set up.
Just adding more speakers doesn't always mean better surround sound. Walls and speaker types make a HUGE diff. in blending a solid soundfield.
Much more so than the dabate over L7 vs. 5.1 capable DPLII I think.
I'm sure adding a center chan. wouldn't improve my field, and another pair of Newforms placed on the side walls wouldn't improve the sound field either.
SO many variables, but all this gets away from the Outlaw vs. Lex question.
Maybe L7's consistently better than DPLII in most people's opinion (if given the chance to compare in an all else equal double blind test), but the word from most DPLII owners who've heard L7 set ups call both very good or very close (not quotes just the general sentiment that seems to come across in posts).
The latest Sound and Vision reviewed the Meridian 521 (model#?) Lex MC-1, and B&K ref-30, and called Meridian's Trifield dsp better than the Lex (and obviously better than 'old'DPL1).
I thought overall the review was horrible, but the preference of Trifield over L7 was made.
Does that make it 'true'? Naw, just someones opinion. Does that make L7 the 2nd best matrix/discrete dsp? Not really.
Too bad B&K couldn't get their act together to update their Ref-30 with DPLII to hear that opinion.
You can get a full control DPLII set up in a high quality prepro for $900, or an older and used Lex with L7 for much much more money. That's part of where my recommendation for the Outlawover Lex comes from.
What I asked was "Do you really use L7 -A LOT ON TOP OF A DTS/DD SIGNAL-?"
I wasn't just asking 'do you use L7 much' -like it's some kinda cheesy dsp mode implying Lex owners rarely use it.
I realize that it's a super great feature, but that wasn't my question.
Why did you post this 'misquoted' comment I made, but don't bother to address my remark about how you dismissed the Outlaw without mentioning any reasons 'why'?
I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but your choice of comments seems 'funny' to put it lightly.
We can certainly disagree about something without things getting out of hand.
You wrote,
About DPLII vs. L7 -the only way as of now to hear both is an MC-12
I say,
Why do both codes have to be inside the exact same unit to compare them? I can see it helping, as in less variables, but for a 'real world' preference test (unless you're planning on getting an MC-12), a test between say a TAG and a MC-1 DPLII vs. L7 seems fair enough to me?
You added,
every person iv spoke with and read have stated that dplII for now is a non issue compared to L7,however when DPLII goes to 7.1 I'm sure that will change.
I say,
I'm sure your long debates with Bob Sorel contradict this easily enough.
And 'a non issue'? What do you mean by that?
You could certainly compare L7 in a 5.1 chan. setup with a 5.1 DPLII setup, and since the steering code's are of the same style 'so to speak' for each surround dsp, you should be able to pick a 7.1 winner based off of your 5.1 preference.
There's still the debate over monopole/dipole surround speakers that would effect this DPLII/L7 challenge.
Also, speaker brands could change dsp preferences.
Additionally some people don't have a room to effectivly set up a 7.1 system. Small rooms w/ 5.1 systems can produce solid surround fields that a 7.1 system packed into it wouldn't improve upon.
Your remarks about this breathless 7.1 soundfield you have sounds great, but then you say you'll also get this with DPLII once it's 7.1
This implies that you're saying that DPLII is AS GOOD a dsp, but that the 2 extra surround speaks is what counts.
Do you have dipoles or monopole surrounds or a mix? What brand speaks? What room size? Distance from all speaks?
I'm not actually asking for answers to these questions, just making the point that if you're saying the 2 extra speakers make all the diff. then all these variables are also critical, and the DPLII vs. L7 code becomes meaningless.
Personally, my front speaks (Newform Research R645) in my med sized room can project a soundfield that with well recorded material (say -Amused to Death by Roger Waters) sounds 'almost' like true discrete surround. Used with my rear placed Newforms and DD/DTS, I have a totally solid discrete surround system in a 4.1 (no center) set up.
Just adding more speakers doesn't always mean better surround sound. Walls and speaker types make a HUGE diff. in blending a solid soundfield.
Much more so than the dabate over L7 vs. 5.1 capable DPLII I think.
I'm sure adding a center chan. wouldn't improve my field, and another pair of Newforms placed on the side walls wouldn't improve the sound field either.
SO many variables, but all this gets away from the Outlaw vs. Lex question.
Maybe L7's consistently better than DPLII in most people's opinion (if given the chance to compare in an all else equal double blind test), but the word from most DPLII owners who've heard L7 set ups call both very good or very close (not quotes just the general sentiment that seems to come across in posts).
The latest Sound and Vision reviewed the Meridian 521 (model#?) Lex MC-1, and B&K ref-30, and called Meridian's Trifield dsp better than the Lex (and obviously better than 'old'DPL1).
I thought overall the review was horrible, but the preference of Trifield over L7 was made.
Does that make it 'true'? Naw, just someones opinion. Does that make L7 the 2nd best matrix/discrete dsp? Not really.
Too bad B&K couldn't get their act together to update their Ref-30 with DPLII to hear that opinion.
You can get a full control DPLII set up in a high quality prepro for $900, or an older and used Lex with L7 for much much more money. That's part of where my recommendation for the Outlawover Lex comes from.
Azryan,
While I agree with much of what you're saying, there are a few things I want to address; or at least try to clarify.
Quote:
Always! Once you get used to having the surround info steered over 4 independant speakers, you won't want to go back to plain vanilla DD/DTS 5.1 ever again. (BTW, if someone reading this is a big fan of vanilla flavour, don't flame me -- I was just using it as a figure of speech.)
Quote:
For the sake of this discussion let's say the Outlaw can convert 5 channels into 7. What matrix decoder are they going to use to do that? Companies like Meridian and Lexicon have been continuously refining their surround processing using decades of knowledge and experience they've gained in the field. Today's TriField and Logic 7 are sensational, but weren't overnight sensations. Any process that Outlaw uses will based on...what?
Quote:
You minimize it by making statements like you made above: implying that if a company comes up with a way to convert 5 channels into 7, it will somehow match a similar feature on a processor made by a company that's been doing DSP for close to 30 years. You minimize it with statements like the one below:
Quote:
IMHO, Lexicon makes excellent DSP modes for things like hall, jazz club, etc. When properly set up in a 7 speaker system, they don't sound gimicky but instead really give you the impression of a larger space. There's a reason that practically every professional recording studio uses Lexicon's DSP boxes: they stand up to that kind to scrutiny.
When Lexicon shipped their new MC-12, they left out their proprietary DSP modes (probably for the same reason that Outlaw did). However, the demand from current and potential MC-12 customers to get those modes back was so loud that Lexicon announced that they'll be part of the next software upgrade. MC-12 owners wouldn't be willing to pay good money for that upgrade if those DSP modes weren't (in my best Keanu voice) excellent!
Quote:
Are you kidding? Lexicon has had an official forum over at the SMR site for years. Before Outlaw had a forum for their customers or, for that matter, before Outlaw even existed, Lexicon had established a relationship of direct communication (thanx Buzz!) with its customer base. Their new MC-12 is evidence of that; it's full of features requested by Lexicon customers, current and potential.
Quote:
Total agreement there. In fact, despite everything I've said above and despite being a long time Lexicon user, I'd still recommend that folks check out the new Outlaw before buying a used Lex. I think the Outlaw represents that good of a value (at least on paper) for the price they're asking.
And compared to those Lexicons, the Outlaw should be richer in features and at a lower price considering how new the design is. Things change with time; parts (like DACs, input jacks, etc) are better and less expensive now than when Lexicon designed the DC-1/DC-2/MC-1 platforms.
Quote:
Again, I agree: while the feature list is awfully impressive (especially for the price), the proof will be in the listening. So here's hoping that Outlaw has made a price/performance breakthrough. When any company does that, I think it benefits us all.
Best,
Sanjay
While I agree with much of what you're saying, there are a few things I want to address; or at least try to clarify.
Quote:
| Do you really use L7 alot (assuming you've got a Lex) on top of a DTS/DD signal? |
Quote:
| I could see it maybe to get 6 or 7 chann. out of a 5.1 soundtrack, but I think Outlaw's preamp can do this too (but not 100% sure, so please nobody flip out if I'm wrong -thanks). |
Quote:
| ...how did I "minimize the impact of Lex's experstise in software/dsp design"? |
Quote:
| Nobody has excellent dsp modes for things like hall, jazz club, etc. I think Outlaw isn't even putting any of these usless things in because of the poll they took online where most people said leave 'em out. |
When Lexicon shipped their new MC-12, they left out their proprietary DSP modes (probably for the same reason that Outlaw did). However, the demand from current and potential MC-12 customers to get those modes back was so loud that Lexicon announced that they'll be part of the next software upgrade. MC-12 owners wouldn't be willing to pay good money for that upgrade if those DSP modes weren't (in my best Keanu voice) excellent!
Quote:
| Does Lexicon ask it's potential customers what they want? Not that it'll make the Outlaw sound better, but it makes me want to support them more than Lex. |
Quote:
| Points againt the DC-2 over the Outlaw... No 5.1 inputs for DVD-A or SACD No component video switching Older DACs compared to what the Outlaw will be using. Also either Lex is still more costly AND used. |
And compared to those Lexicons, the Outlaw should be richer in features and at a lower price considering how new the design is. Things change with time; parts (like DACs, input jacks, etc) are better and less expensive now than when Lexicon designed the DC-1/DC-2/MC-1 platforms.
Quote:
| I know you might think I'm in love with this Outlaw preamp, but I just want to point out what it's got. So many people have been shooting it down before it's even out because of it low price. They certainly can't shoot it down over it's sound quality 'cuz no one knows, and certainly not over it's features which are tremendous and state of the art. |
Best,
Sanjay
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Mcgeetn,
sorry for the brain freeze, I missed the information about your system while reading azryan' s replies.
sorry for the brain freeze, I missed the information about your system while reading azryan' s replies.
Joined
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1,735 Posts
Azryan,
Have you ever set up or heard a Lexicon processor? To discuss this based on spec sheets misses the big picture. You got some pretty strong opinions for someone who appears to have never heard logic 7 or the Outlaw950.
Mcgeetn,
DACs are only part of the sound picture, how there implemented is critical to the fidelity.
Has anybody said the Outlaw 950 feature set does not represent an outstanding value?
If component video switching and 5.1 or 2 channel analog bypass are important go for it. Many individuals agree that connecting your video product directly to the source or scaler derives the best signal. IMO, 5.1 with logic 7 is big improvement over straight 5.1.
I would be surprised if the outlaw is as easy to use and setup as the lex . I have setup 30 to 40 processors/receivers and the user interface/software is ill conceived and counterintuitive in more than half. Lex also provide excellent documention and discrete IRcodes for almost every function imaginable. It also provides for ease of automation through the RS232 port for Crestron and other systems.
The DC2 also provide full THX post processing (timbre matching, Re-eq, decorrelation or adaptive decorrleation, where desired.
Other modes that are quite pleasing with extensive capability to tweak the surround/audio settings include:
Panorama
Music Surround
Music Logic
TV Matrix
Mono Logic of old mono movies
This DC2 lacks analog bypass and wide bandwidth component switching, if these are deal killers move on. Otherwise, the DC2 at 1500 dollars represents an excellent value for someone looking for multichannel music or home theater. It can and will be beat sonically. If the 550 extra is significant move on. Personally, I would wait to hear a few reviews of the 950 before purchasing. Besides sonics, assure the units usability fits with your needs.
Good luck with your decision!!
Have you ever set up or heard a Lexicon processor? To discuss this based on spec sheets misses the big picture. You got some pretty strong opinions for someone who appears to have never heard logic 7 or the Outlaw950.
Mcgeetn,
DACs are only part of the sound picture, how there implemented is critical to the fidelity.
Has anybody said the Outlaw 950 feature set does not represent an outstanding value?
If component video switching and 5.1 or 2 channel analog bypass are important go for it. Many individuals agree that connecting your video product directly to the source or scaler derives the best signal. IMO, 5.1 with logic 7 is big improvement over straight 5.1.
I would be surprised if the outlaw is as easy to use and setup as the lex . I have setup 30 to 40 processors/receivers and the user interface/software is ill conceived and counterintuitive in more than half. Lex also provide excellent documention and discrete IRcodes for almost every function imaginable. It also provides for ease of automation through the RS232 port for Crestron and other systems.
The DC2 also provide full THX post processing (timbre matching, Re-eq, decorrelation or adaptive decorrleation, where desired.
Other modes that are quite pleasing with extensive capability to tweak the surround/audio settings include:
Panorama
Music Surround
Music Logic
TV Matrix
Mono Logic of old mono movies
This DC2 lacks analog bypass and wide bandwidth component switching, if these are deal killers move on. Otherwise, the DC2 at 1500 dollars represents an excellent value for someone looking for multichannel music or home theater. It can and will be beat sonically. If the 550 extra is significant move on. Personally, I would wait to hear a few reviews of the 950 before purchasing. Besides sonics, assure the units usability fits with your needs.
Good luck with your decision!!
Hi guys,
Gee, this has really turned into another one of those debates
As far as the Logic 7 vs. DPL II debate, I feel that either one would make you happy. No, I have not owned a Lexicon processor, so I have not conducted any carefully implemented studies, but I have heard Logic 7 demo'd several times, and I find it to be very nice, but I also did not feel like "I've got to have that!" after using DPL II for quite some time. I really don't know which one is better, but they sound far more similar than they sound different, and I feel that if you buy a Lex, you will be totally ecstatic with Logic 7, and if you buy non-Lex, then you will be just as happy with DPL II.
Logic 7:
Matured technology
Provides 7 "discreet" channels
Can be applied to various formats (like DD 5.1 and DTS)
DPL II:
Newer technology with lots of potential yet to be realized
Will probably become more mainstream because it is licensed
Seems to have better steering than L7 on stereo sources (only my opinion, not fact!)
In this debate, does anyone know if either Logic 7 or DPL II can be applied to DD 2.0 sources on either the used Lex or the new Outlaw? I feel that this is very important for people who plan on watching HDTV broadcasts, as the majority are still in DD 2.0 and are in sore need of processing. ABC broadcasts are in DD 5.1, but it is very poor most of the time. CBS programs and a lot of HBO movies are broadcast in DD 2.0, and with DPL II applied sound much better, so anyone planning on watching a lot of broadcast HDTV would be advised to buy a processor that can apply its processing to DD 2.0 sources.
As far as the Outlaw is concerned, I find myself quite intrigued by this processor and will be eagerly awaiting reports of its audio quality. It certainly is rich with features, and at $900, if it sounds as good as a Lex, or maybe even better, then it will set new standards in price/performance ratios. To argue about it now is fruitless, as none of us has heard one.
The used Lexicon prices seem to be falling every day, and I imagine they will bottom out at some point, and when you can buy a DC-2 or a MC-1 for $900, then some serious comparisons to the Outlaw should and probably will be made. If the Outlaw turns out to be a dog, you better grab that used Lex while you can!
No matter which processor you choose, it won't cost all that much money, and you will be getting such a great bargain, you will probably be able to sell it later for almost as much as you paid, and then get that TAG McLaren that you've longed for all this time (Sorry, I couldn't help myself )!
Gee, this has really turned into another one of those debates
As far as the Logic 7 vs. DPL II debate, I feel that either one would make you happy. No, I have not owned a Lexicon processor, so I have not conducted any carefully implemented studies, but I have heard Logic 7 demo'd several times, and I find it to be very nice, but I also did not feel like "I've got to have that!" after using DPL II for quite some time. I really don't know which one is better, but they sound far more similar than they sound different, and I feel that if you buy a Lex, you will be totally ecstatic with Logic 7, and if you buy non-Lex, then you will be just as happy with DPL II.
Logic 7:
Matured technology
Provides 7 "discreet" channels
Can be applied to various formats (like DD 5.1 and DTS)
DPL II:
Newer technology with lots of potential yet to be realized
Will probably become more mainstream because it is licensed
Seems to have better steering than L7 on stereo sources (only my opinion, not fact!)
In this debate, does anyone know if either Logic 7 or DPL II can be applied to DD 2.0 sources on either the used Lex or the new Outlaw? I feel that this is very important for people who plan on watching HDTV broadcasts, as the majority are still in DD 2.0 and are in sore need of processing. ABC broadcasts are in DD 5.1, but it is very poor most of the time. CBS programs and a lot of HBO movies are broadcast in DD 2.0, and with DPL II applied sound much better, so anyone planning on watching a lot of broadcast HDTV would be advised to buy a processor that can apply its processing to DD 2.0 sources.
As far as the Outlaw is concerned, I find myself quite intrigued by this processor and will be eagerly awaiting reports of its audio quality. It certainly is rich with features, and at $900, if it sounds as good as a Lex, or maybe even better, then it will set new standards in price/performance ratios. To argue about it now is fruitless, as none of us has heard one.
The used Lexicon prices seem to be falling every day, and I imagine they will bottom out at some point, and when you can buy a DC-2 or a MC-1 for $900, then some serious comparisons to the Outlaw should and probably will be made. If the Outlaw turns out to be a dog, you better grab that used Lex while you can!
No matter which processor you choose, it won't cost all that much money, and you will be getting such a great bargain, you will probably be able to sell it later for almost as much as you paid, and then get that TAG McLaren that you've longed for all this time (Sorry, I couldn't help myself
)!
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Quote:
Yes, all the Lexicons apply Logic 7 to DD 2.0 material, which is a significant benefit. They also apply Logic 7 to DD and DTS 5.1 sources, though here the effect is not as dramatic because it respects speaker placement in the source, so the only only steering is to properly time-delayed rear channels.
Cheers,
Philip Brandes
| Originally posted by Bob Sorel In this debate, does anyone know if either Logic 7 or DPL II can be applied to DD 2.0 sources on either the used Lex or the new Outlaw? I feel that this is very important for people who plan on watching HDTV broadcasts, as the majority are still in DD 2.0 and are in sore need of processing. ABC broadcasts are in DD 5.1, but it is very poor most of the time. CBS programs and a lot of HBO movies are broadcast in DD 2.0, and with DPL II applied sound much better, so anyone planning on watching a lot of broadcast HDTV would be advised to buy a processor that can apply its processing to DD 2.0 sources. |
Cheers,
Philip Brandes
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1,228 Posts
Quote:
While Logic 7's effect on DD and DTS 5.1 is not dramatic, I find the ability to use the additional parameters available for both DD and DTS 5.1 much more useful, parameters such as Bass Enhance and Vocal Enhance. I find it interesting when talking about Lexicon processors that Logic 7 is mentioned as its' only discriminator, when there are a whole host of parameters that let a user fine-tune each effect, some quite unique to Lexicon.
Michael
| Originally posted by Philip Brandes Yes, all the Lexicons apply Logic 7 to DD 2.0 material, which is a significant benefit. They also apply Logic 7 to DD and DTS 5.1 sources, though here the effect is not as dramatic because it respects speaker placement in the source, so the only only steering is to properly time-delayed rear channels. Cheers, Philip Brandes |
Michael
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