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I've got my Oppo BDP-83 bitstreaming over hdmi to a Denon 3808. When do I need to boost the LFE? only for SACD? what about DVD-A? what's the best way to do it on the Denon? do i even need to do it at all? also just ordered the NY blu ray set, will i have to worry about LFE settings for that?


Could anyone clear this stuff up for me and let me know exactly what i need to do and when?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch2099 /forum/post/16918974


I've got my Oppo BDP-83 bitstreaming over hdmi to a Denon 3808. When do I need to boost the LFE? only for SACD? what about DVD-A? what's the best way to do it on the Denon? do i even need to do it at all? also just ordered the NY blu ray set, will i have to worry about LFE settings for that?


Could anyone clear this stuff up for me and let me know exactly what i need to do and when?

You shouldn't need to boost anything if you are using an HDMI connection.
 

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I find myself having to adjust the sub output one way or the other on almost everything I pop on. Not much heavy bass on the NY blurays until you get into crazyhorse recordings. Now the Harvest DVD-A , I turn down the subs, and also the surrounds seem to be too hot, so I turn them down too. Since there's no surround or bass/LFE standard that I'm aware of. The trick is to try and remember all the settings for each disc, and make the changes before the music starts playing!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatanika /forum/post/16920026


I find myself having to adjust the sub output one way or the other on almost everything I pop on. Not much heavy bass on the NY blurays until you get into crazyhorse recordings. Now the Harvest DVD-A , I turn down the subs, and also the surrounds seem to be too hot, so I turn them down too. Since there's no surround or bass/LFE standard that I'm aware of. The trick is to try and remember all the settings for each disc, and make the changes before the music starts playing!

With so many of the adjustments hidden deep inside the setup on these AVRs, I'd like to see some sort of presets available. Why not give the user the ability to set a few custom EQ and level profiles? The receiver manufacturer shouldn't assume that the only thing that needs correcting is the room. far too many recordings are poor, and many surround sound recordings are either too loud or too soft in the surround channels. We should have an easy way to make those adjustments.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter White /forum/post/16920971


With so many of the adjustments hidden deep inside the setup on these AVRs, I'd like to see some sort of presets available. Why not give the user the ability to set a few custom EQ and level profiles? The receiver manufacturer shouldn't assume that the only thing that needs correcting is the room. far too many recordings are poor, and many surround sound recordings are either too loud or too soft in the surround channels. We should have an easy way to make those adjustments.

Well many of us don't care for that kind of tinkering, so personally I don't want to pay for a feature, that will mess things up and I won't need. There are outboard devices that will do as you ask.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch2099 /forum/post/16918974


I've got my Oppo BDP-83 bitstreaming over hdmi to a Denon 3808. When do I need to boost the LFE? only for SACD? what about DVD-A? what's the best way to do it on the Denon? do i even need to do it at all? also just ordered the NY blu ray set, will i have to worry about LFE settings for that?


Could anyone clear this stuff up for me and let me know exactly what i need to do and when?

No user adjustment needed beyond the regular level calibration. This is one of the advantages of HDMI, that some of problems associated with analog connections, will not be an issue with HDMI at all. Enjoy!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16927691


Well many of us don't care for that kind of tinkering, so personally I don't want to pay for a feature, that will mess things up and I won't need. There are outboard devices that will do as you ask.

Can you name one? I'd be very interested in getting one.


Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16927705


No user adjustment needed beyond the regular level calibration. This is one of the advantages of HDMI, that some of problems associated with analog connections, will not be an issue with HDMI at all. Enjoy!

It's not an analog connection problem, and HDMI cannot fix it. The problem is some group of content makers decided to re-define the LFE channel. It is documented here , but I'm not sure they originated the practice. LFE is defined correctly for film and TV, but differently for music (can be wideband, and no +10 dB boost in the playback chain). Yet no playback device can distinguish among these genre--there's no metadata for that, so anything recorded to this alternative "standard" will play back incorrectly unless the user intervenes manually.
 

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Exactly, this is why when upgrading a pre/pro ease of trim levels is an important feature for me. Most people don't even notice that I just lowered the LFE/bass level 2db, or raised the surrounds. One friend calls himself a bassaphobe, others can't seem to get enough, so it's nice to be able to make easy changes. There is no set and forget setting for accuracy.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter White /forum/post/16928202


Can you name one? I'd be very interested in getting one.


Thanks

You haven't heard of outboard Eq's? There are MCH versions, and there is also Audessey's standalone Room EQ that has much more options then what's built into the typical receivers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler /forum/post/16928733


It's not an analog connection problem, and HDMI cannot fix it. The problem is some group of content makers decided to re-define the LFE channel. It is documented here , but I'm not sure they originated the practice. LFE is defined correctly for film and TV, but differently for music (can be wideband, and no +10 dB boost in the playback chain). Yet no playback device can distinguish among these genre--there's no metadata for that, so anything recorded to this alternative "standard" will play back incorrectly unless the user intervenes manually.

That's true, [although I find bass problems among SACDs or DVD-As rear at best] but the analog connections often made things worse, because of the lack of boost of the LFE, mostly by the receiving end due to the intentional reduced voltage output from a typical SACD/DVD-A player's analog output. I agree that it isn't the connection type's fault per se, but it is implementation. None the less using the HDMI connection gives a far more universal results, because MFR's at least got that part correct.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatanika /forum/post/16929490


Exactly, this is why when upgrading a pre/pro ease of trim levels is an important feature for me. Most people don't even notice that I just lowered the LFE/bass level 2db, or raised the surrounds. One friend calls himself a bassaphobe, others can't seem to get enough, so it's nice to be able to make easy changes. There is no set and forget setting for accuracy.

There is no set and forget setting for personal preference.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16929567


You haven't heard of outboard Eq's? There are MCH versions, and there is also Audessey's standalone Room EQ that has much more options then what's built into the typical receivers.

Of course I've heard of equalizers. But they either work with separate pre-amp and power amps, or they are only two channel and attach via a tape monitor loop. My comment was about AVRs, and this is the surround sound forum.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter White /forum/post/16932424


Of course I've heard of equalizers. But they either work with separate pre-amp and power amps, or they are only two channel and attach via a tape monitor loop. My comment was about AVRs, and this is the surround sound forum.

Oh yeah which part of the MCH EQ you didn't understand?

here is one.

http://www.audiocontrol.com/19888/pr...The-Bijou.html


Also one can use 3 for 6ch. Like 3 Behringer BFDs.
Yes you would need to insert it between a pre amp and the amp, as you're not gonna find these kind of things in AVRs, simply because there isn't much of a market for it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16932473


Oh yeah which part of the MCH EQ you didn't understand?

here is one.

http://www.audiocontrol.com/19888/pr...The-Bijou.html


Also one can use 3 for 6ch. Like 3 Behringer BFDs.
Yes you would need to insert it between a pre amp and the amp, as you're not gonna find these kind of things in AVRs, simply because there isn't much of a market for it.

Dear Mr. Hun,


Before making snide remarks, you might want to read what I wrote.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16929614


None the less using the HDMI connection gives a far more universal results, because MFR's at least got that part correct.

Are you saying that if I use the HDMI to output SACD or DVD-A, I won't have the low LFE problem compared to DD/DTS?


and that problem will surface if I use the analog connection?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold /forum/post/16933839


Are you saying that if I use the HDMI to output SACD or DVD-A, I won't have the low LFE problem compared to DD/DTS?


and that problem will surface if I use the analog connection?

For the first question, yes.

While as Roger pointed it out, there is no standard as how to mix and encode DVD-A and SACD as far as the content goes, including how many channels are being used, if the DTS encode is the same mix as the lossless,[MLP or DSD] their bass output should be equal with HDMI no question.

As for analog connection there is whole thread dealing with this here:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/16938589


For the first question, yes.

While as Roger pointed it out, there is no standard as how to mix and encode DVD-A and SACD as far as the content goes, including how many channels are being used, if the DTS encode is the same mix as the lossless,[MLP or DSD] their bass output should be equal with HDMI no question.

As for analog connection there is whole thread dealing with this here:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Per this link:

LFE digital output from players

When outputting a Dolby Digital or DTS bitstream from a player, the LFE channel remains encoded in the bitstream, untouched by the player. The receiver's decoder has the responsibility to boost the LFE by 10dB, and almost invariably they will get this right. DD and DTS remain the most foolproof way of transmitting LFE.


When outputting a PCM multichannel bitstream over Denon Link, i.Link, HDMI or similar, the LFE channel will be transmitted "as-is", and will need boosting by 10dB in the receiver. The receiver should do this automatically. If it fails to do this before performing bass management, then you will be unable to calibrate the system correctly - boosting the subwoofer to compensate will have the side effect of over-emphasising bass from other channels.When outputting a PCM multichannel bitstream over Denon Link, i.Link, HDMI or similar, the LFE channel will be transmitted "as-is", and will need boosting by 10dB in the receiver. The receiver should do this automatically. If it fails to do this before performing bass management, then you will be unable to calibrate the system correctly - boosting the subwoofer to compensate will have the side effect of over-emphasising bass from other channels.




A distinction needs to be made between that which is passed as bitstream and that which is passed as MPCM. There IS an "LFE bug" with some receivers when accepting MPCM via HDMI.


The analog issue with the LFE channel is not really a "bug".
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/16938938




A distinction needs to be made between that which is passed as bitstream and that which is passed as MPCM. There IS an "LFE bug" with some receivers when accepting MPCM via HDMI.


The analog issue with the LFE channel is not really a "bug".

There is no bug only bad implementation in some early HDMI 1.1 receivers.

And it stems from the analog connection mishandling by the same suspects.

Roger already touched on the fact that there is no metadata carried with PCM and certainly not with analog. So while this was part of the bitsreaming and decoding automatically for the LFE boost, this is not the case with analog or MCH PCM. So it had to be implemented separately for those formats. Some like Denon figured this out early on, some like Pioneer was a bit late, but eventually they all got this one right. However the analog MCH inputs are often neglected especially since HDMI really became much more adopted. Some MFRs are taking pride in the fact there is no signal processing in any kind on those inputs to preserve the incoming signal. Well those are suspect right there. Anyway there is no bug in either way as far as I'm concerned,but if you insist to call it that way then both are bugs because they come from the same mishandling of the issue. The MFR's just didn't do it right.
 
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