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I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that Spectracal are sending out counterfeit NIST certificates?

from earlier:


If I understand @WiFi-Spy's posts correctly, the same applies to the WOLED EDRs for the 2017/2018/2019 oleds that they supply within Calman as well. That is what completely put me off the (rather reckless) idea of buying an i1Pro2 which I'd only use a few times.
You have to look at it this way. If you are a Home enthusiast and you want a "good" calibration result then an EDR will work fine if you have one for your meter and Ted has given the ways to get them for the i1D3 or if you have a C6. If you want more precision then an i1Pro2 or something similar to profile with works well. If you want more precision then you are going to have to invest in a used or new Jeti or CR spectro. Just depends on your budget and degree of accuracy you want to achieve.
 

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Leon, I’m sorry that you are interpreting my posts in a negative way. The i1 family is really great. Xrite has done a wonderful job with those probes. If you read my last post I also said that I don’t know if the difference I perceive is worth the cost of a Jeti. I guess it’s enough for all here to go and buy an i1Pro2. I’ll tell you more, from 5% luminance to 100% i1D3 is as accurate as a Klein K10A (another 6.900$ cost). So yes, you are right and I never said the contrary. Still, I was happy with my NUMERICAL results because no one (excluded my calibration buddies, you know who you are!) has ever reached those results. Many thanks to Ted, Fabio, Adolfo and Abdi for having me in the R&D WOLED LS family and to the Unknown Masked Creator of the LG templates.

Enjoy youR 3DLUT Leon and think positive. We’re here to help ;)
 

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Counterfeit is rather harsh.
But, they are/were NIST invalid.
I think they may have now changed the wording of the 'certificate'.
To be NIST valid, the 'testing' has to meet very strict terms/criteria...
This is what I got (attached). My only complaint was that for something so scientifically precise, it's ludicrous to be using the prehistoric Fahrenheit temperature scale. Come and join the rest of the world and damn well adopt the metric system yesterday, please.

NB: I am not, NOT talking about the re-certification spat. ONLY about the piece of paper that arrived when I bought the meter. To repeat: NOT talking about anything else.

Calman do not offer a valid WOLED EDR...
The only one available is the one we supply.
Oh yes they do, that was my point, I was informing you that they do, I wasn't asking ;)
 

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There is just no way any i1D3 can be accurate to 4 decimal places.
Especially as the document doesn't quote the illumination source.
Or the probe settings.
So you have no idea what i actually being compared.

Unfortunately, it seems that document is not worth the paper it is written on...

It's sad really.

Steve
 

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This is what I got (attached). My only complaint was that for something so scientifically precise, it's ludicrous to be using the prehistoric Fahrenheit temperature scale. Come and join the rest of the world and damn well adopt the metric system yesterday, please.

NB: I am not, NOT talking about the re-certification spat. ONLY about the piece of paper that arrived when I bought the meter. To repeat: NOT talking about anything else.
I do think you should still be asking some questions about that piece of paper to be honest...
Your "Starter for 10" is that given we are all acutely aware that in order to calibrate something you have to be able to adjust it, exactly what is the calibration that is claimed to have been performed ("inspected and calibrated"). As far as everyone is aware, there is no unit calibration that is able to be performed on these units once they leave X-rite. It >might< have had some calibration performed at X-rite's facility, but that isn't what the paper says... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #466
This is what I got (attached). My only complaint was that for something so scientifically precise, it's ludicrous to be using the prehistoric Fahrenheit temperature scale. Come and join the rest of the world and damn well adopt the metric system yesterday, please.
We are talking for actual NIST of a new meter, not the re-cert.

Please take a good read all the links I posted earlier, read the patents how the meter can be calibrated and then see that your NIST paper say 'inspected and calibrated' ...but Portrait can't calibrated meters correcting the spectral sensitivity curves, so the meter can't be calibrated from Portrait.

Then read what requirements need to have a valid NIST document, and if you have questions ask to the C6 thread.

I will contact NIST directly to inform about all these invalid documents soon, its not a joke to play with national departments, its not like THX/ISF cert. which are only private companies behind.

I was a fool one time, only @ 2011 when I bought my C6 only (as I trusted that company and all the advertising for that is something special), not anymore.

When you calibrate against some standard, you have to compare the instrument against a NIST's CRM (Certified Reference Material) which you have to list that and write how you did the test also to that certification paper, the type of NIST CRM you used and its serial number.

There documents you have to follow when you do calibration/certification of a Luminance meter (NIST Special Publication 250-95)

That info is not available to the C6's NIST cert. paper...so how is possible to provided a NIST paper without including the most basic, the reference material used to check for traceability.

More about this explained there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2896137-c6-hdr2000-colorimeter-spectracal-4.html#post58421796
 

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Ted you make some good points. I wish someone from PD would explain what they are now actually doing since I remember this conversation several years ago and i'm sure it's been discussed many times over the years.
 
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We are talking for actual NIST of a new meter
Good. So am I.

not the re-cert.
And again, nor am I.

"NB: I am not, NOT talking about the re-certification spat. ONLY about the piece of paper that arrived when I bought the meter. To repeat: NOT talking about anything else."

I don't understand how I can write that 3 times, and then you still reply as if I didn't say it. :rolleyes::mad:

The only reason I posted the picture was because of the discussion about the wording. I said before, and I will say again, and I will keep saying it until you people believe me, that I do not have a problem with that piece of paper other than the temperature scale used. I am not a professional, I do not have customers demanding an NIST certificate, I am just a hobbyist, I only posted it to this thread to help answer a question. I did not post asking "I wish to learn about something I didn't ask about, please give me 5 hours of reading homework to do". I was answering someone else's question. HTH

To be clear, if other people wish to ask questions of SpectraCal / Portrait Displays, be my guest. I do not disagree with many of the points raised, but they are being raised to the wrong person (shouldn't be me). It will not affect my hobby or my meter (which I keep being told will now have "drifted", and was "cheap" anyway). If I was a professional it would be a different matter, but my meter is just a toy, I keep being told :)
 

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Discussion Starter #469 (Edited)
D-Nice is certainly one of those few real professionals that I deeply respect because he gets paid for his (amazing) job and, AFAIK, he does not accept weird and compromising sponsorships.
True! He is using LightSpace a lot time for all 3D LUT profilings.

What I can say, hand on heart, is that despite the limitations of the equipment I own (which is well documented, and I knew about before my purchase), the image I see on screen matches the results I see "on paper". And certainly better than the calibrations I've paid good money for in the past.
before using Jeti, I was also convinced that the visual difference could not be detected with the naked eye. I had to change my mind. I repeat, it is not an epochal change and I cannot even tell you if it is worth spending all that money, but the difference is there and is sufficiently evident. It is however such as to make the images more natural, on the same level as those that only my plasma (Kuro) was capable of giving me.
Every enthusiast use whatever is possible for his pocket to calibrate as best as possible his display, but its important also to use correct software and procedure, as it can happen to have the best calibration gear and use a software with a broken color engine volumetric 3D LUT, so your end results to not be so perfect.

Even by using the best software but with wrong meter settings or bad TV pre-calibration or setting to not able to get so great results.

Its true that for all that perfect results you see for LG OLED's, its behind a team of enthusiasts (Fabio, Miki, James, Miki, Ric, Adolfo, Abdessamad, Enrico) who have performed many different profilings with many different settings until to finalize with some specific settings which will work for all users with LG OLED's to have the best possible picture.

Its not that the picture was not good with the first profiling, but the passion to improve as more as possible the end results (using any method or software, with different meters etc) to end measurements but to real content also.

LightSpace provide tools to evaluate the generated correction and has drift plots which helps a lot in comparison of actual LUT data and see how delay or black frame times before each patch read affect the end results...also about how different patchsets order with same meter/generator settings can change the panel's stability.

So for someone who will follow these steps, then the accuracy of the end results can be improved by using better instruments, so the order of gear recommendations to improve the end results can be:

1) Use i1Display PRO with WRGB OLED table for LG 2018 available officially only LightSpace (for i1Display PRO users I mean) as it was a job performed for FSI and LightIllusion from X-Rite.

2) Use i1Display PRO with Generic CMF and profile using i1PRO2.

3) Use i1Display PRO with Generic CMG and hire a pro with high-end spectro to get a meter profiling only (then DIY the profiling).

4) When you have a spectro (i1PRO2 or better) and a CRT/Plasma or an old LCD (not wide gamut) you can use the spectro to calibrate the 100% White and then do perceptual matching to find and create a custom White Point for your OLED.

5) Get the best colorimeter for large profilings, the Klein K-10.

6) Paint the area of your eye sight, ceiling, side walls and back TV wall with a Munsel N5 calibrated paint (about 40 euros per litre it costs). There 2 companies for such paint, one in USA and one in UK. The UK's provide calibration report also.

Munsell N5 calibrated paint is a neutral gray with flat spectral response, without having any hue bias because for the eye to see color accurately, the surround environment need to be chromatically neutral also.

Post-production studios have their room, even desks painted using a specific calibrated neutral gray paint.

There is an industry-specified neutral matte gray (vinyl latex emulsion) with 18% reflectance (Munsell N5) calibrated paint specifically formulated for critical color viewing conditions with neutral surround as specified by ISO 3664:2009 (Viewing Conditions - Graphic Technology & Photography) / SMPTE ST 2080-3:2017 (Reference Viewing Environment for Evaluation of HDTV Images), not all gray's are the same, you need spectrophotometric measurement to be sure that it has an equal mixture of all the spectrum (r-o-y-g-b-i-v) colors, for that reason that paint is multiple times more expensive and there only a few companies which are selling it.

Below is the calibration report of the Munsell N5 calibrated paint I use to my room for example:



To the opposite wall, it need to be non-reflective, its better to have black painted wall, blacks paint which is truly black is the Rosco TV black paint (which meets specifications for 3% reflectance), most of normal black paints have blue-ish tint.

You can use cloth also, the deepest black is called 'Triple Velvet Black', see there.



When you have Neutral Gray area behind your TV (or walls) this will provide more comfort when you will watch movies because it stabilizes your eyes iris. Also it provides a consistent white balance for your eyes, giving a constant reference in the peripheral area around your display, eliminating the negative effects of simultaneous contrast.

Also it will minimize the ''color pollution''of viewing area caused by reflections from chromatic surfaces.

The application of a neutral gray to chromatic surfaces will eliminate such color pollution by providing spectraly neutral surfaces around the viewing area.

How you will say WOW, all these stuff sound so crazy....has anyone that has done all these to his HT environment, yes..... Ted ..who else? lol
 

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How you will say WOW, all these stuff sound so crazy....has anyone that has done all these to his HT environment, yes..... Ted ..who else? lol
We know you have done it ;) But I think it's just you ;)
 

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How you will say WOW, all these stuff sound so crazy....has anyone that has done all these to his HT environment, yes..... Ted ..who else? lol
You know, it may sound crazy Ted, but I actually moved house just over 2 months ago, and one of the things I have been looking in to doing next year, possibly in the summer when I begin the revamp of my new home, is exactly what you have just talked about here. I knew this type of paint existed but didn't know the name of it or how it worked, so this post is extremely helpful to me and gives me a great starting point to begin my future design around :D
 

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It's also easier to do if you are not married. :)
Divorced twice, so I can paint what I want, whatever colour I want :laugh:
 

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X-Rite is not calibrating each meter separately for that reason they haven't published any specification for the meter. They are measuring a batch of sensors and they apply an average spectral characterization to whole batch of meters.
To the best of my knowledge, having pulled the calibration information in the meter apart, and having spoken with one of the people who designed the meter and its production process, each i1d3 is individually calibrated. The hints are even in the data - there are two named calibration stations in the production process, and this is recorded in the calibration data.

Like any reputable manufacturer, their calibration process will be linked to a certified instrument (likely a CS2000 or equivalent), but they don't go to the expense and rigor of certifying the i1d3's themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #475
You know, it may sound crazy Ted, but I actually moved house just over 2 months ago, and one of the things I have been looking in to doing next year, possibly in the summer when I begin the revamp of my new home, is exactly what you have just talked about here. I knew this type of paint existed but didn't know the name of it or how it worked, so this post is extremely helpful to me and gives me a great starting point to begin my future design around :D
The problem is that the paint leave fingerprints and also you can't clean the wall, its for very dedicated rooms. Send me msg when you want to invest to inform you.

It's also easier to do if you are not married. :)
No kids also.
 

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The problem is that the paint leave fingerprints and also you can't clean the wall, its for very dedicated rooms. Send me msg when you want to invest to inform you.
In my last house, my room was decorated with neutral greys and anthracite (charcoal) walls, carpet and curtains, but it was standard vinyl matt paint. I had heard of this stuff from a friend who had used something similar in a dedicated theater room which is why I had considered using it here in my new home. I will definetly be in touch about it nearer the time
 

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Discussion Starter #477 (Edited)
Why would you think that? My understanding is that the iD3s are tested and required to fall within a stricter threshold than that of Xrite's in order to be rebranded. Beyond that, there is a different WRGB OLED profile for the C6 depending on what model year OLED you're measuring.

It seems to me that there is no real reason to suspect that an i1 Pro 2 is any more accurate than a C6, at least from the individual measurements and arguments I've seen put forward. If your intention is to calibrate multiple displays and have them appear consistent, then profiling with an i1 Pro 2 makes sense, but I don't see the sense in spending the additional cash on an i1 Pro 2 for a single display (assuming my argument is valid).
Hi Ken,

I will reply to your questions to this thread, but I will not reply to any other time for C6 using a LightSpace thread.

We don't need here pollution which will hide valuable info from people which are interested for LightSpace and LG OLED's.

The discussion about C6 is not proper here as its a discusion for EDR tables can't be used from LightSpace, while the meter can work without problem with LightSpace using some tricks with DLL files replacement using the normal OEM EDR tables from X-Rite.

While all these are interesting, I recommend you or other users want to ask more details about C6 or NIST cert. to use the other thread where I have posted all the info: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2896137-c6-hdr2000-colorimeter-spectracal-4.html#post58803200

I have additional info to post also but I don't see any response from Tyler or no-one else.

I have examples about high-end colorimeters certification of performance papers to post.. from Minolta, Colorimetry Research, Klein, to see how proper certification papers are written.

BTW Klein don't say anywhere that the meter is NIST cert. as they are professionals (they don't say lies) and know that to use a display as a reference is not possible, for that reason they say that the meter is coming with just a certification of performance, not a NIST cert. (Portrait use a display for such test, as their lab director has posted but they name the paper as NIST for example, which makes the paper invalid) as there no exist a display as a NIST CRM, as I have explained very accurately and detailed: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2896137-c6-hdr2000-colorimeter-spectracal-4.html#post58421796

X-Rite use the same manufacturing procedure for OEM or custom branded OEM (which are both 2000 nits rated from X-Rite).

There no difference in calibration between these meters, X-Rite don't provide a re-calibration also as a service for i1Display PRO's, I have posted about this to other thread.

Anyone who can order 2000 units per year, he can order custom branded meters with custom label, custom named, unlock code, custom colors, custom meter code etc.

You just send all the artwork, if you need outer box or custom CD also.. and in 15 days you have your order delivered. (just they send yo a sample first to confirm that is good the colors). This add an additional cost and require to do agreement with X-Rite for ordering at least 2000 meters per year.

A lot of companies do this already as there in market a lot of custom branded OEM meters:

HP DreamColor
NEC SpectraSensor Pro
Quato Silver Haze 3
Wacom Color Manager
ASUS ProArt i1Display PRO
Toshiba Picture Analyser 1 (TPA1)
basICColor display SQUID 3

....or others, some of these have one additional EDR table compared to normal OEM (like HP or NEC) some others don't have any additional EDR table, but all these meters don't have 3x more expensive retail as the C6, while C6 has the most additional EDR tables.

What was the pitch from X-Rite, did they make any claims to you about stricter tolerances, or was it simply a license to rebrand their meters?
The manufacturing process is the same for all meters, the additional EDR files are loaded later as they are coming with software installation.

So when you select C6 OLED 2018 table, the sensor spectral calibration data (from factory) combined with spectral data of the EDR file (coming to CalMAN installer which is the same spectra for all C6 users) and then its been generated a correction matrix.

But when you use EDR spectral files you are not fixing the issue of meter-per-meter variations, you can fix this when you profile using a spectro to your place your specific colorimeter, using i1PRO2 or other with higher resolution.

Understood, my thinking in regards the notion of hand-picked iD3s was that a tighter tolerance would make for (variance in SPD considered) a more generally applicable EDR. Though you make a convincing argument for this not being the case and I really no longer know where to stand on the NIST cert that comes with the C6 (given your feedback).
There no hand-picked units, the only difference is that Custom branded OEM or OEM (or Plus Retail) are rated from X-Rite for 2000 nits while all Retail's for 1000 nits.

We can continue the discussion to C6 thread please: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2896137-c6-hdr2000-colorimeter-spectracal-4.html#post58803078

SpectraCAL did something similar at past with eeColor, they were changing a sticker to the faceplate and installing a custom firmware, selling for ~3x more: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2977176-calman-room-place-bring-better.html#post56231132

(and finally they removed the product from the market, once it was available from LightSpace for a lot of less money)
 

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Discussion Starter #478
To the best of my knowledge, having pulled the calibration information in the meter apart, and having spoken with one of the people who designed the meter and its production process, each i1d3 is individually calibrated. The hints are even in the data - there are two named calibration stations in the production process, and this is recorded in the calibration data.
Thanks for that info!

Like any reputable manufacturer, their calibration process will be linked to a certified instrument (likely a CS2000 or equivalent), but they don't go to the expense and rigor of certifying the i1d3's themselves.
If it was possible to be certified from X-Rite then it should require to re-upload new data also.

If it was possible to report individually just each meter deviations, then if should not required to upload new data.

For that reason these specs has never been released to public, its the i1Display PRO (custom branded oem/oem/retail) specs:

 

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To the best of my knowledge, having pulled the calibration information in the meter apart, and having spoken with one of the people who designed the meter and its production process, each i1d3 is individually calibrated. The hints are even in the data - there are two named calibration stations in the production process, and this is recorded in the calibration data.

Like any reputable manufacturer, their calibration process will be linked to a certified instrument (likely a CS2000 or equivalent), but they don't go to the expense and rigor of certifying the i1d3's themselves.
I was informed by X-Rite, as we are a licensed re-seller, that they batch manufacture.
Each batch is based on the same calibration data.
So probes from different batches will likely be different, but within the batch, will be the same.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #480


Just to give to Caesar what is of Caesar, @ConnecTEDDD unwilling forgot to write that this table is part of an Excel spreadsheet made by myself. ;)
Yes, right, I used your calculator to any of my posts the last month, Enrico did the same also, but we both forgot to credit your work.

Its a great tool which you spend a lot of time to write, to provide a useful summary for many points verification reporting.

Also while you used all documentation for different colorspace calculations until the dE to be calculated, your final results match 100% LightSpace's dE2000 reporting.

I have asked from Steve to add a similar chart to ColourSpace, to count how many points has each dE range, as your excel chart is providing.
 
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