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Using Ted's fantastic guide here: LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread

I only had a clarifying question about this (specifically using ColourSpace & PGenerator on a C9 display) and apologies in advance if it is dumb or obvious:
  • I performed the SDR SM WP calibration at 109% white (255) fine. No problem there. Used the "Cool" temp. My question is specifically with HDR. I decided to use the internal LG pattern generator for that on SM Warm. Ted recommends calibrating the gain using "100% White" for HDR which I am assuming to be the 235 pattern, correct? Or would I use 255 for HDR?
Leon's guide says a separate SM WP tweak for HDR/DV is unnecessary so I see there are a few varying views on this, which is great. I am just playing around with different configurations to see what works.

Thanks gents.
I personally don’t find any benefit in having two separate SM WB pre-calibrated for SDR and HDR/DV. But there is no downside to doing it either. There is no right or wrong way for this in my opinion.

In regards to the iTPG:
Patch scale in LightSpace/ColourSpace when used with the iTPG in the 2019 models must always be 0-255. This is due to where the iTPG is located.

The pack with the guides also contains CSV files that can be loaded to the manual measure tab, and contain all the points you need to measure in HDR/DV and are even named as to which percentage point they refer to.

The absolute 10 bit code values have little relevance when you are following the instructions. If you were adjusting with PQ active, then of course they would as they’d need to be adjusted to the exact absolute value. But PQ conversion is bypassed when using the 2019 iTPG and adjustments are made in gamma space, so everything is measured in a kind of “Relative Mode” for want of a better description. And even if PQ was active, they’d be pretty much useless anyway as undefeatable tone mapping comes into play.

TL/DR....Just follow the instructions, it works.

For those with the PGenerator (or other external generator) and a HD Fury, I would suggest using that if possible over the iTPG anyway.


In HDR all values are absolute, if the metadata says that the max luminance is 1000nits, then the digital value 940.940.940 (8-bit: 235.235.235) is 100% white at 1000 nits.
I think you’ve confused the RGB Triplets the software calls for to be displayed with the absolute digital code value attributed to HDR. It’s a bit of a minefield and can take some time to get your head around. I do it all the time 🤯
 

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I'm sorry for the misinformation, thought I was understanding it. :-(

For those with the PGenerator (or other external generator) and a HD Fury, I would suggest using that if possible over the iTPG anyway.
In which way does the procedure vary, if I want to use the HD Fury + PGenerator for calibration (Just got my HD Fury Linker)?

And how do get the colour spaces right in Light/ColourSpace? The default ones doesn't seem to be right.
Just copied the ST2048 P3 D65 and modified the nits to 1000, that looks a bit more realisitic, but not as much as your "HDR EOTF" and "LG Dolby Vision EOTF" colour spaces from the guides.
 

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I'm sorry for the misinformation, thought I was understanding it. :-(
It is easy to get it mixed up, as I say, I do it all the time.

In which way does the procedure vary, if I want to use the HD Fury + PGenerator for calibration (Just got my HD Fury Linker)?
When using the PGenerator and HD Fury, set patch scale at 16-235 and inject the metadata into the video signal as described in the PGenerator thread. I suggest just using the 1000 nit metadata, but it doesn't really matter as you will still adjust with PQ disabled. To disable PQ you will need to connect to the LG with Device Control and click to Enable Calibration. This will bypass tone mapping and allow adjustment to 2.2 Gamma

And how do get the colour spaces right in Light/ColourSpace? The default ones doesn't seem to be right.
Just copied the ST2048 P3 D65 and modified the nits to 1000, that looks a bit more realisitic, but not as much as your "HDR EOTF" and "LG Dolby Vision EOTF" colour spaces from the guides.
If you want the EOTF curve to flatten off as shown in the guide images, just modify the Colour Space to the peak luminance that you measure.

For HDR, I had set a custom PQ Curve of 100% so that it followed the EOTF all the way and hard clipped at the panel peak. I did this purposefully to ensure PQ EOTF tracking as much as possible.

For Dolby Vision, I used Absolute Metadata patterns which essentially does the same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,544
Using the service remote on the LG CX, I turned on the HDR module and quite like it, however, is there a way to increase it's affect? From what I noticed, it brightens dark areas and darkens bright areas, but I would like the strength increased, any way?
Hi, SM has many settings; we are not changing unless you see somewhere to the thread a discussion about specific setting in SM, which improve panel performance.

We don't recommend the user to change settings; they don't know what they are doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,545
Using Ted's fantastic guide here: LG OLED's 3D LUT Profiling using LightSpace Thread

I only had a clarifying question about this (specifically using ColourSpace & PGenerator on a C9 display) and apologies in advance if it is dumb or obvious:
  • I performed the SDR SM WP calibration at 109% white (255) fine. No problem there. Used the "Cool" temp. My question is specifically with HDR. I decided to use the internal LG pattern generator for that on SM Warm. Ted recommends calibrating the gain using "100% White" for HDR which I am assuming to be the 235 pattern, correct? Or would I use 255 for HDR?
Leon's guide says a separate SM WP tweak for HDR/DV is unnecessary so I see there are a few varying views on this, which is great. I am just playing around with different configurations to see what works.

Thanks gents.

When the TV has Contrast 85, the 255 will display a 109% patch and 235 100% patch.

When TV has Contrast 100, it will clip 236-255, so 235 or 255 will measure the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,546
Hi,

If you have 3.10.20 FW or newer, then for SDR/HDR10, use patch scale 16-255. 0-255 for DoVi only.

If you have older FW from 3.10.20, then 0-255 to all modes (SDR/HDR/DoVi).

I have provided that info to ColourSpace users @ 17 July 2020, as it was available to EU TV on 16 July 2020.

For SDR/HDR, see my post here and for DoVi, here.

Below is an example of what is happening when a user will use a wrong iTPG patchscale:

However, any user can see the Clip chart after a simple grayscale only measurement and confirm that any upcoming FW changed something from my recommendation. (he has to be faster from me to inform the thread lol)

The difference in the black level is visible.

LG OLEDs with 03.11.05 FW

After two months from the latest FW release, LG released today a new FW for 2020 OLED TVs (03.11.05).

That firmware is not probably available yet using TV automatic updates, but using USB can update your TV.

I have just tested to see if something is fixed from all these known bugs LG knows/tracking.

I have to say, nothing is fixed, as LG seems not to be interested in the calibration features of the TV.

iTPG is still not matching external iTPG (it will never match, just checked with Murideo Six-G, the most significant deviation appears in DoVi mode).

SDR/HDR10 iTPG is still displaying the full-field magenta flashes.

DoVi is still using the 'old' iTPG, so LightSpace/ColorSpace users have to use the 0-255 patch scale.

DoVi tone mapping (not related to calibration, as its affecting units before calibration) is still producing problems in near black.

The same recommendations I have posted 3.10.20 FW are valid for 03.11.05

See you next year.

Congratulations to LG for adding new bugs to CX, problems C9 were not suffering.

When users are using external iTPG, the only fix required is related to DoVi Tone Mapping.

iTPG of C9 is not producing magenta flashes and no C7/C8/C9 is sufferting from DoVi issue in near black (not related with calibration)
 

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Hmm somehow my required brightness setting to see RGB level 1 from 0 in SDR with it not being completely invisible in pitch black room has increased from 50 to 53, can firmware updates affect this?

HDR is correct at 50 though.
 

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I found a strange issue with LS and the new OLED CX (2020) series.

In short: the same, long-tried and perfectly and proven calibration method,
which works great on OLED C9 when I use it on "CX"
gives serious errors on grayscale.

When I calibrating 77С9, POST dE on grayscale never, at any test point, exceed de2000 1.0

But on CX, with the same calibration method, grayscale is much worse.
At many points, dE2000 rise significantly above 1.0 (although do not reach dE2.0).
For some reason, at CX the quality of LS-grayscale calibration has become worse.

This is confirmed by checks not only by LS but also by Calman.
At the same time, the quality of the calibration of the rest of the colors, outside the grayscale
with the same method, it is equally good on C9 as on CX.

In both cases (CX and C9) I used:
Klein K-10a corrected by JETI 1211
PG: Six-G
1080-RGB-VIDEO (0-255)
LS levels: 16-255
OLED manual SM WB 100% White pre-cal
LS Cube: 17x3 (no separate 1D-LUT calibration and LG 1D-LUTs is not reset)
0.5 sec extra delay
0.35 sec BFI
1000 points pre-roll (about 30 minutes)

Problem with low quality post-calibration grayscale, with dE at many checkpoints,
exceeding 1.0 was detected on few CX.
Simultaneously, when setting up C9 with exactly the same method, everything is in order.

Has anyone encountered a similar problem?
Unfortunately, I still have no idea what the reason is.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,549
Hmm somehow my required brightness setting to see RGB level 1 from 0 in SDR with it not being completely invisible in pitch black room has increased from 50 to 53, can firmware updates affect this?

HDR is correct at 50 though.
Hi, which pattern are you looking with ''0-1'' markings, and from which player do you playback the pattern?

HDR Brightness patterns should not used for calibration/adjustments. We are using them only for evaluation.
 

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I found a strange issue with LS and the new OLED CX (2020) series.

In short: the same, long-tried and perfectly and proven calibration method,
which works great on OLED C9 when I use it on "CX"
gives serious errors on grayscale.

When I calibrating 77С9, POST dE on grayscale never, at any test point, exceed de2000 1.0

But on CX, with the same calibration method, grayscale is much worse.
At many points, dE2000 rise significantly above 1.0 (although do not reach dE2.0).
For some reason, at CX the quality of LS-grayscale calibration has become worse.

This is confirmed by checks not only by LS but also by Calman.
At the same time, the quality of the calibration of the rest of the colors, outside the grayscale
with the same method, it is equally good on C9 as on CX.

In both cases (CX and C9) I used:
Klein K-10a corrected by JETI 1211
PG: Six-G
1080-RGB-VIDEO (0-255)
LS levels: 16-255
OLED manual SM WB 100% White pre-cal
LS Cube: 17x3 (no separate 1D-LUT calibration and LG 1D-LUTs is not reset)
0.5 sec extra delay
0.35 sec BFI
1000 points pre-roll (about 30 minutes)

Problem with low quality post-calibration grayscale, with dE at many checkpoints,
exceeding 1.0 was detected on few CX.
Simultaneously, when setting up C9 with exactly the same method, everything is in order.

Has anyone encountered a similar problem?
Unfortunately, I still have no idea what the reason is.
What settings are you using with the Six-G? RGB 16-235 or RGB 0-255? Your notes are confusing as RGB-Video is 16-235, not 0-255.
 

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I found a strange issue with LS and the new OLED CX (2020) series.
Hi,

A lot of the 2020 LG OLED's seem to have worse factory calibration than previous generations. I have seen quite a few profiles now of both CX and GX models that suffer from the exact same issues you have described. But the issues can be resolved with results equaling results from previous generations, as shown in the results posted in this Light Illusion Forum post

Light Illusion Forum Post

I believe Ted has posted the "fix" already in the ColourSpace thread. I'll see if I can find the post and link it here.
 
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Thanks!
At least now I know I am not alone with this problem.

I have already encountered two CX`s (77" and 65") with the "bad LS-post-cal grayscale" problem.
One of these days I will have OLED55CX, I will also check on it.

It seems to me that even if factory calibration in the new CX series has become a little less qualitative,
shouldn't this be a problem for LS to work well?

The only difference in the calibration method compared to C9 is
which I remember is the "SM 100% White Balance" setting.
In the CX series, the pattern brightness control in SM works again,
therefore in CX at this stage I set the same brightness to which I calibrated the screen (140 nit).
Whereas in the C9 SM WB had to be adjusted to a maximum brightness.

In addition, yesterday I noticed a new version of the template "OLED 2020 Rev 2.0"
for DeviceControl. There is now a choice of Color Space: "SDR BT709" or "SDR REC2020".
The purpose of "SDR Rec2020" is not entirely clear.

If I want to make a 3D LUT for Rec. 709 which of the two should I use?
"SDR BT709"?
 

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Thanks!
At least now I know I am not alone with this problem.

I have already encountered two CX`s (77" and 65") with the "bad LS-post-cal grayscale" problem.
One of these days I will have OLED55CX, I will also check on it.

It seems to me that even if factory calibration in the new CX series has become a little less qualitative,
shouldn't this be a problem for LS to work well?

The only difference in the calibration method compared to C9 is
which I remember is the "SM 100% White Balance" setting.
In the CX series, the pattern brightness control in SM works again,
therefore in CX at this stage I set the same brightness to which I calibrated the screen (140 nit).
Whereas in the C9 SM WB had to be adjusted to a maximum brightness.

In addition, yesterday I noticed a new version of the template "OLED 2020 Rev 2.0"
for DeviceControl. There is now a choice of Color Space: "SDR BT709" or "SDR REC2020".
The purpose of "SDR Rec2020" is not entirely clear.

If I want to make a 3D LUT for Rec. 709 which of the two should I use?
"SDR BT709"?
The “new template” question is an easier one to answer as this was just released in the last week or two, and was described once again in the ColourSpace thread


As for the post calibration greyscale issue on the X Series, have you tried running the generated LUT as an "Active LUT" within the software before uploading it to the TV, and if so, are you getting the same post-calibration greyscale issue? I would suspect that running the correction as an Active LUT will show no issues, pointing to possible processing issues within the TV itself. But there are several things you can try.
  • Manually add some extra greyscale points into the cube patch sequence you are using to profile the display for LUT generation giving more data points for greyscale correction. If the Active LUT test shows no issue though, this may not help
  • Run a Greyscale Large Quick Profile and use "Augment" to combine it with the main 17^3 cube profile giving more data points for greyscale correction. Again, if the Active LUT test shows no issue, this may also not help
  • After using Device Control to "restore Factory Values" and "Reset 3D LUT" and performing other pre-calibration steps, change the user menu Gamma setting to 2.4 (it should be selectable if the 1D LUT is not reset) before beginning the main profile
I do know you are not alone in seeing this but at this time I have only seen X Series profiles, not actually measured one myself yet. I'll be doing my first three (hopefully) next weekend. I do also know this was discussed quite some time ago in the ColourSpace thread too, so it may be of some help to have a quick look through there.
 
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I don't really follow/post on general forums, but this discussion has just been sent to me, and I think I should post a few comments/observations.

It is impossible for the LightSpace/ColourSpace colour engine to generate inaccurate results on one display vs. another, assuming the options used are correct, and there has been no user error.

The only possible issues can be either user error, or the display/probe generating invalid/unstable readings when profiling, causing the generated LUT to be incorrect, as the input data was wrong.

And one of the best ways to assess the input (pre-calibration) profile data is to map the display profile to itself, as that will very quickly show issues with the source profiling.

With ColourSpace this can be done easily using the 'Modify' function within the Colour Space Library to perform an extraction on the profile. With LightSpace the same can be done manually, but using the peak RGB values copied from the profile to define the display's native gamut, as well as using the display's average gamma value, to make a new target colour space.

Obviously the 3D graphs in ColourSpace help a lot in then assessing the original profile data, but you can get a good idea from LightSpace too.

And such profiling 'errors' may not actually be in the grey scale measurements, as the colour engine is volumetric in operation, it would also be worth performing a Grey Only profile, and building a 3D LUT from that, so see what effect that has on the calibrated grey scale (ignoring that the gamut calibration will not be 'accurate'). That will help isolate where the display/probe issues are.

With the tools provided in LightSpace/ColourSpace there are always methods available to perform in-depth assessment (including Active LUT as Leon stated).

But such issues, as poor grey scale described here, will not be issues within LightSpace/ColourSpace.

And as said before, if you do want direct Light Illusion assistance (not that I am saying that was the case here) we always respond to direct support emails, or better, use the Light Illusion forum, so others can see your questions and the replies, as well as chip-in with their thoughts.

Steve
 

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From what I have seen myself (admittedly only in other users measurement profiles, not my own measurements at this time) the issue described is limited only to “some” (not all) 2020 model LG’s, and only after the LUT has been uploaded to the TV itself. There are no problems when running the correction as an Active LUT in software. Which was why I suggested checking that way considering the profile has already been run and the LUT generated. To me, that points to a possible issue with the TVs internal processing

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the LUT generation at all, as seen here on a “Bright Room” mode I did just yesterday, targeting 160 nits and 2.2 Gamma on a 65C9. I sent the results to Ted who sent me the results summary (credit to Anger.miki for the summary charts)

3043399


As usual, the same excellent results we have all come to expect
 
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Discussion Starter #1,557
I found a strange issue with LS and the new OLED CX (2020) series.

In short: the same, long-tried and perfectly and proven calibration method,
which works great on OLED C9 when I use it on "CX"
gives serious errors on grayscale.

When I calibrating 77С9, POST dE on grayscale never, at any test point, exceed de2000 1.0

But on CX, with the same calibration method, grayscale is much worse.
At many points, dE2000 rise significantly above 1.0 (although do not reach dE2.0).
For some reason, at CX the quality of LS-grayscale calibration has become worse.

This is confirmed by checks not only by LS but also by Calman.
At the same time, the quality of the calibration of the rest of the colors, outside the grayscale
with the same method, it is equally good on C9 as on CX.

In both cases (CX and C9) I used:
Klein K-10a corrected by JETI 1211
PG: Six-G
1080-RGB-VIDEO (0-255)
LS levels: 16-255
OLED manual SM WB 100% White pre-cal
LS Cube: 17x3 (no separate 1D-LUT calibration and LG 1D-LUTs is not reset)
0.5 sec extra delay
0.35 sec BFI
1000 points pre-roll (about 30 minutes)

Problem with low quality post-calibration grayscale, with dE at many checkpoints,
exceeding 1.0 was detected on few CX.
Simultaneously, when setting up C9 with exactly the same method, everything is in order.

Has anyone encountered a similar problem?
Unfortunately, I still have no idea what the reason is.
Hi,

The problem you have found is not related to LightSpace/ColourSpace.

Please subscribe to the ColourSpace thread to get always the latest and most accurate info for LGs.

LG CX is coming from the factory with screwed calibration.

For that particular problem of 2020 models are affected, the SM WB can't help as the problem is not related to White Balance.

Since the problem will not appear to any pattern, you will not see any issues after the WB SM adjustment if you check for clipping using contrast or color clipping patterns.

Before starting the profiling, the only way to find and resolve the problem is to measure the panel with Profile of Primary only.

''Profile of Primaries only'' will measure 21-Point Grayscale with 20-Point Luminance (with 100% Saturation) as required for the proper RGB Separation chart generation of LightSpace/ColourSpace.

Without RGB Separation chart (or 3D CIE to understand the problem) it's not possible to detect any issue.

Using calibration software is based on using 1D LUT, which will ignore WB SM calibration; it is impossible to realize the problem since it requires 3D CIE charts of ColourSpace and RGB Separation chart to able to understand and resolve the problem before the calibration.

So for users using 1D LUT with CX, the problem is more extensive, as the issue will become larger. These users will never be able to resolve when they are using SDR 1D LUT; since you should have Brightness 50, Contrast 85, and Color 50; you can't use other settings when you are using 1D LUT.

With LightSpace/ColourSpace, we have never advised any user to use 1D LUT, and I posted many times the reasons.

The problem is not the same for all 2020 TVs.

So the required adjustments to fix the problem will be different per unit.

C9 had better factory calibration, and a lower number of units had such issues.

The method below can be used even to improve LG TV calibration (generally all TV), even for manual calibration of 2015/2016/2017, or generally manual cal of any display/projector.

I use these methods from 2012 LightSpace already for my calibrations.

Technically, its not a factory calibration issue, since in the factory, they perform only White Balance 1-Point Calibration. I don't have any contact with LG to find out more info, but I believe the issue comes from the Panel calibration from LGD (so to the panel factory); this calibration is stored to each panel TCON.

LGD provide the panels with the calibration of the panel stored to the TCON (not the White Balance calibration, but the gamma 2.2 based calibration as the OLED panels natively are linear 0-1 to their response)

LGE's assembling factory after they will receive the panels, they perform some testing using full-field patterns and others for some days, and then they perform the automated white balance calibration:


Fix LGD Panel Calibration Issues

Use default settings for Contrast/Color and perform the White Balance 109% White Balance calibration using Service Menu controls (note to not press RESET to the White Balance screen)

Since the problem is different per panel, the required adjustments for Contrast/Color are not the same for all users.

You can fix/improve the factory problem by taking multiple Profile of Primary Color and compare RGB separation charts using different Contrast settings (84, 83, 82, 81, 80) and then Color (50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55).

Most of the time, for the correction of the panel factory calibration issue, it will require to set Contrast @ 80 and Color at 54 or 52 or 50, but each unit will need different values.

What is RGB Separation?

ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread

ColourSpace CMS - Next Generation Calibration... Thread

OK, let's move to some data from CX panels:

Example 1 (CR85 + Color 50 @ the left picture vs. CR80 + Color 50 @ right picture):



As you can see, we have clipping with the default Contrast 85 and Color 50 settings to the top end.

The Red line is lower, so the problem has the largest impact on Luminance or Red @ 109% and the other color channels.

So when we reduce Contrast, it will fix the color clipping.

Ideally, each channel line needs to have the same linear spacing vs. the White compared to all points you see to the plotting.

You can look at the problem with the CIE 3D Chart; you see that Red @ 109% has increased Luminance compared to the Luminance levels (direction of tangent lines of different luminance levels of Red):




You can hold Control Key and right mouse click to move the CIE 3D chart.

Hold Right-click and move up/down to zoom in/out.

Hold Left click and move the mouse for rotation.

Example 2 (CR85 + Color 50 @ the left picture vs. CR84 + Color 54 @ right picture):



This CX TV has lower chroma, so it will require to remove slightly Contrast (84) and then add Color (54).

Note that RGB Separation is not related to RGB balance!

Look the RGB Balance, it shows no significant difference:



So after fixing that LG issue, ColourSpace/LightSpace will not have that panel problem. You will be able to get even better performance, not only from LG but from any TV/Projector.

With such technical analysis, this post is a good example for users to understand the capabilities of LightSpace/ColourSpace when you have a technical background to explain all that, without having any contacts with LG to able to get any 'high-level' info.

It's an excellent comparison to the technical capabilities of other users (full contacts with LG) were 'sadly' they can't even post basic info about what patchscale to use for CX DoVi patch generation:


So they provide inaccurate information for stuff you don't even need a meter to find out, since according to that user recommendation, the black level to the background becomes ~1.5 nits.

It will not require to have any technical background to understand that the background of the patch when you display a White patch should be black:



When you are using the correct patchscale, the background will have OLED 0 nit black.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,558 (Edited)
Six-G: Full Levels 0-255
LS Levels: 16-255
The ideal Murideo settings for SDR 3D LUT with LG OLED:

For Pre-Calibration / Proifling: 2160p24 RGB-PC with patchscale 16-255, to generate 16-255.

For Post-Calibration verification :2160p24 RGB-PC with patchscale 16-235 or RGB-Video with patchscale 0-255. In both cases, Murideo with generate RGB-Video patches (16-235).
 

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Discussion Starter #1,559
The only difference in the calibration method compared to C9 is
which I remember is the "SM 100% White Balance" setting.
In the CX series, the pattern brightness control in SM works again,
therefore in CX at this stage I set the same brightness to which I calibrated the screen (140 nit).
Whereas in the C9 SM WB had to be adjusted to a maximum brightness.

In addition, yesterday I noticed a new version of the template "OLED 2020 Rev 2.0"
for DeviceControl. There is now a choice of Color Space: "SDR BT709" or "SDR REC2020".
The purpose of "SDR Rec2020" is not entirely clear.

If I want to make a 3D LUT for Rec. 709 which of the two should I use?
"SDR BT709"?
About Service Menu OLED Backlight, see my post to ColourSpace thread last month:


About New LG OLED Templates, you will see extensive info about how to load to SDR REC.2020 slot here:


You can't upload to the SDR.2020 slot by only selecting 2020 from DeviceControl, and it will upload to REC.709 if you are sending 'regular' REC.709 signaling.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,560
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the LUT generation at all, as seen here on a “Bright Room” mode I did just yesterday, targeting 160 nits and 2.2 Gamma on a 65C9. I sent the results to Ted who sent me the results summary (credit to Anger.miki for the summary charts)

View attachment 3043399

As usual, the same excellent results we have all come to expect
Imporessive dE average and gamma....

Even with 277 nits, the results are still very accurate and without any artifacts:


Anger.miki's Charts are very handy for dE number evaluations of an unlimited number of measured points.

If I remember well, you can measure up to 16K points with ColourSpace.
 
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