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Hi, everybody!

This is my first post on this forum. I've been following it for years. I appreciate the forum a lot! I have found a lot of good advice.

I can confirm that of the 2020 models, at least the B9S suffers from poor near black detail. This was obvious as soon as I looked at the slides I scanned. The scan job has been done with care and a calibrated display was used, so I know exactly what dark details should look like. The LG B9 cannot display them with preset settings.

If you change the gamma to 1.9, the darkest tones will be greatly improved, but the overall contrast effect of the image will be reduced too much.

I get moderately good results with these settings:

oled light = 40 (dim room), higher value in bright room
contrast = 85
brightness = 52
gamma = 2.2
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 2.5 / adjusting luminance = 10
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 5 / adjusting luminance = 7
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 7.5 / adjusting luminance = 4
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 10 / adjusting luminance = 1

These need to be further adjusted as experience is gained.

I think the C9 would be better in this regard. I conclude this from the following information, among others:

Cnet reviews say that the brightness of the B9 model had to be increased to 52 (“to help with shadow detail”), while a value of 50 was enough for the C9 model.

And the site LG C9 vs B9 OLED TVs : What's the Difference? - Refresh Robot says:

”Compared to the C9’s 018 chipset, the B9 chipset has:
- -
-Near-black quantization. Color quantization is the process of the reduction of color used in an image, which is essential for displaying images accurately when only a limited number of colors can be displayed.
- -
-Lack of bit depth, which causes more flashing artifacts and noise in the shadows and darker scenes. The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma, which can reduce the level of detail. You can calibrate this with SDR settings, but not in high dynamic range (HDR) or Dolby Vision.
- -

Overall, the C9’s processing power allows for neater image upscaling, better near-black quantization, more precise shadow detail, and higher peak brightness compared to the B9 model.”

That was a quote from RefreshRobot. This mention explains many things: “The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma”.

Maybe it is precisely because of this that some have left the IRE settings unchanged due to the appearance of artifacts. At least the LG B9 and lower or older models hide artifacts by hiding dark details.
Yep - most of us with the older sets like my E6 also deploy some white-balance IRE adjustments to help with the near blacks. They do help and my set is better in this regard than before the edits. The newer models are still better out of the box than mine but at least we do have a way to mitigate it somewhat.

Enjoy your set!
 

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Hi, everybody!

This is my first post on this forum. I've been following it for years. I appreciate the forum a lot! I have found a lot of good advice.

I can confirm that of the 2020 models, at least the B9S suffers from poor near black detail. This was obvious as soon as I looked at the slides I scanned. The scan job has been done with care and a calibrated display was used, so I know exactly what dark details should look like. The LG B9 cannot display them with preset settings.

If you change the gamma to 1.9, the darkest tones will be greatly improved, but the overall contrast effect of the image will be reduced too much.

I get moderately good results with these settings:

oled light = 40 (dim room), higher value in bright room
contrast = 85
brightness = 52
gamma = 2.2
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 2.5 / adjusting luminance = 10
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 5 / adjusting luminance = 7
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 7.5 / adjusting luminance = 4
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 10 / adjusting luminance = 1

These need to be further adjusted as experience is gained.

I think the C9 would be better in this regard. I conclude this from the following information, among others:

Cnet reviews say that the brightness of the B9 model had to be increased to 52 (“to help with shadow detail”), while a value of 50 was enough for the C9 model.

And the site LG C9 vs B9 OLED TVs : What's the Difference? - Refresh Robot says:

”Compared to the C9’s 018 chipset, the B9 chipset has:
- -
-Near-black quantization. Color quantization is the process of the reduction of color used in an image, which is essential for displaying images accurately when only a limited number of colors can be displayed.
- -
-Lack of bit depth, which causes more flashing artifacts and noise in the shadows and darker scenes. The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma, which can reduce the level of detail. You can calibrate this with SDR settings, but not in high dynamic range (HDR) or Dolby Vision.
- -

Overall, the C9’s processing power allows for neater image upscaling, better near-black quantization, more precise shadow detail, and higher peak brightness compared to the B9 model.”

That was a quote from RefreshRobot. This mention explains many things: “The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma”.

Maybe it is precisely because of this that some have left the IRE settings unchanged due to the appearance of artifacts. At least the LG B9 and lower or older models hide artifacts by hiding dark details.
At least the B9/C9 applies a dithering pattern to near black greys to mask and reduce the chrominance overshoot issues. My sony a9g does nothing in such dark scenes, just sits there and lets my eyes get bombarded by ugly flashing and other artifacts. Single biggest complaint of sony I have. I will add something here, in this particular area, panasonic is the best , their newer oleds have the least amount of near black artifacting with the best possible shadow detail. I have noted timestamps of some of these problematic dark scenes with 8 bit color depth on my sony and compared the scenes on a colloeague's panasonic GZ oled. The panasonic sat there calmly in these scenes without flashing and other artifacting in like 80 percent of these scenes and the other 20% the noise in those dark areas in the background was not as pronounced as it is on my sony. Though panasonic engineers are not exactly employing the technique that LG does, at low stimulus values they disengage the white subpixel. Hopefully sony comes out with a solution to this. I have read that with the A8H, if you use the new 120hz BFI mode, the problem is masked to some extent, but why force people to use BFI. And with BFI, you are also bound to take a brightness hit if you watch sdr content at anything more than 100 nits. There should be a better solution.

Something curious with this issue (chrominance overshoot) is i have heard some people say that older LGD panels don't suffer from this problem. So how come a 2016 oled doesn't show this problem but the newer ones do? Did something change on the panel manufacturing front?
 
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Great post and yes, the better processor does a better job with near-black quantization.
One tiny thing, the B9 and C9 are both 2019 models. The 2020 models are called BX, CX, GX etc.
Thanks @mrtickleuk
Good clarification about 2020 models. Sorry for being imprecise. The B9 is a part of 2019 lineup, but I suppose that my B9S ("s"or "sla") version is something like a 2020 facelift update. Unfortunately it doesn't mean the same as better... The differences are minor. Users gew212 and hristoslav2 have explained it on this thread LG B9 PLA vs SLA - vertical digital frequency
 

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Something curious with this issue (chrominance overshoot) is i have heard some people say that older LGD panels don't suffer from this problem. So how come a 2016 oled doesn't show this problem but the newer ones do? Did something change on the panel manufacturing front?
Yes from 2018 onwards it happened. 2016-2017 panels didn't have it. It's clearly visible in the R-Tings reviews of the 2018, 2019 and 2020 models, and was analysed in detail in the chroma overshoot discussion thread.
3037287


Notice that the C7 doesn't have it? But also notice, that the C7 had a longer delay before any light was produced? (This could be linked to that panel not having any BFI capability - it wasn't fast enough. Anyway a much more intellectual discussion than what I could offer is on the other thread)

The dithering fix is used on 2018, 2019 and 2020 panels, but the 2019 T-con has more "bits" to use near black, and the 2020 is improved even more. As per what Panasonic has also done, LG's solution is not to use the white subpixel near black but instead make all colours with just the RGB pixels, and also, temporal dithering.

@CardanShaft , thanks for the link to the other thread I'll have a read. Although it's almost academic as the C9 models are pretty much sold out worldwide now.
 

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Hi, everybody!

This is my first post on this forum. I've been following it for years. I appreciate the forum a lot! I have found a lot of good advice.

I can confirm that of the 2020 models, at least the B9S suffers from poor near black detail. This was obvious as soon as I looked at the slides I scanned. The scan job has been done with care and a calibrated display was used, so I know exactly what dark details should look like. The LG B9 cannot display them with preset settings.

If you change the gamma to 1.9, the darkest tones will be greatly improved, but the overall contrast effect of the image will be reduced too much.

I get moderately good results with these settings:

oled light = 40 (dim room), higher value in bright room
contrast = 85
brightness = 52
gamma = 2.2
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 2.5 / adjusting luminance = 10
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 5 / adjusting luminance = 7
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 7.5 / adjusting luminance = 4
white balance | 22 points ire | ire = 10 / adjusting luminance = 1

These need to be further adjusted as experience is gained.

I think the C9 would be better in this regard. I conclude this from the following information, among others:

Cnet reviews say that the brightness of the B9 model had to be increased to 52 (“to help with shadow detail”), while a value of 50 was enough for the C9 model.

And the site LG C9 vs B9 OLED TVs : What's the Difference? - Refresh Robot says:

”Compared to the C9’s 018 chipset, the B9 chipset has:
- -
-Near-black quantization. Color quantization is the process of the reduction of color used in an image, which is essential for displaying images accurately when only a limited number of colors can be displayed.
- -
-Lack of bit depth, which causes more flashing artifacts and noise in the shadows and darker scenes. The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma, which can reduce the level of detail. You can calibrate this with SDR settings, but not in high dynamic range (HDR) or Dolby Vision.
- -

Overall, the C9’s processing power allows for neater image upscaling, better near-black quantization, more precise shadow detail, and higher peak brightness compared to the B9 model.”

That was a quote from RefreshRobot. This mention explains many things: “The B9 model hides these artifacts by darkening the near-black gamma”.

Maybe it is precisely because of this that some have left the IRE settings unchanged due to the appearance of artifacts. At least the LG B9 and lower or older models hide artifacts by hiding dark details.
Welcome to the AVS discussions! That was an informative post.

I noticed the lack of near black detail on the B6 model almost immediately, and also the additional near-black "noise" as I like to call it , with certain content. I also use 2.2 gamma, and for a while I bumped up Brightness to 52, but that had the effect of losing true black and harming overall contrast, so I reverted to 50. I tried the near zero IRE luminance adjustments, but all that did for me was make the near-black "noise" more visible, so reverted that too.

Anyway, it's interested to know that OLEDs still have these near-black issues, and that some models are better than others.
 

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Welcome to the AVS discussions! That was an informative post.

I noticed the lack of near black detail on the B6 model almost immediately, and also the additional near-black "noise" as I like to call it , with certain content. I also use 2.2 gamma, and for a while I bumped up Brightness to 52, but that had the effect of losing true black and harming overall contrast, so I reverted to 50. I tried the near zero IRE luminance adjustments, but all that did for me was make the near-black "noise" more visible, so reverted that too.

Anyway, it's interested to know that OLEDs still have these near-black issues, and that some models are better than others.
What actual adjustments did you make for the IRE stuff? Just curious. I think me, wxman and a few others had decent results with a "-2 step down" starting at IRE 35 working our way down to 0. So, IRE 35 = -12, IRE 30 = -10, IRE 25 = -8 and so on. It doesnt fully fix the issue. No TV is perfect and near black in some scenes is clearly an OLED weak spot but the IRE edits do help mitigate it for most users.
 

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Welcome to the AVS discussions! That was an informative post.

I noticed the lack of near black detail on the B6 model almost immediately, and also the additional near-black "noise" as I like to call it , with certain content. I also use 2.2 gamma, and for a while I bumped up Brightness to 52, but that had the effect of losing true black and harming overall contrast, so I reverted to 50. I tried the near zero IRE luminance adjustments, but all that did for me was make the near-black "noise" more visible, so reverted that too.

Anyway, it's interested to know that OLEDs still have these near-black issues, and that some models are better than others.
On my E6 for gamma 2.2 I set 5IRE luminance to +5, 10IRE to +3, and 15 IRE to +1 with the brightness at 50. I can faintly see a 0.5% slide in a totally dark room after allowing my eyes to adjust. So I am not losing any near black detail. As far as noise, in the picture settings, set noise reduction to Auto. It generally clears up a lot of the near black noise.
 

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What actual adjustments did you make for the IRE stuff? Just curious. I think me, wxman and a few others had decent results with a "-2 step down" starting at IRE 35 working our way down to 0. So, IRE 35 = -12, IRE 30 = -10, IRE 25 = -8 and so on. It doesnt fully fix the issue. No TV is perfect and near black in some scenes is clearly an OLED weak spot but the IRE edits do help mitigate it for most users.
I don't remember the exact settings I tried, because it was years ago. But I followed the advice in this thread, so pretty sure I tried everything suggested at the time. I also recall playing around with various settings myself. Nothing I tried raised near black high enough without also making artifacts more visible. The setting that worked best for me was changing gamma from BT.1886 to 2.2. Still not perfect, but much better.
 

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On my E6 for gamma 2.2 I set 5IRE luminance to +5, 10IRE to +3, and 15 IRE to +1 with the brightness at 50. I can faintly see a 0.5% slide in a totally dark room after allowing my eyes to adjust. So I am not losing any near black detail. As far as noise, in the picture settings, set noise reduction to Auto. It generally clears up a lot of the near black noise.
I was able to see the 0.5% IRE window without messing with IRE settings, just using gamma 2.2, but it was extremely faint and I wouldn't be surprised if some people don't notice it. This with Brightness at 50 and no elevated black level. I don't like to use noise reduction as it tends to smooth over certain details, but like I said, what I refer to as near-black "noise" are probably just artifacts, not actual noise.
 

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What actual adjustments did you make for the IRE stuff? Just curious. I think me, wxman and a few others had decent results with a "-2 step down" starting at IRE 35 working our way down to 0. So, IRE 35 = -12, IRE 30 = -10, IRE 25 = -8 and so on. It doesnt fully fix the issue. No TV is perfect and near black in some scenes is clearly an OLED weak spot but the IRE edits do help mitigate it for most users.
Could someone explain why to use negative IRE values instead of positive?

My current IRE settings on B9 are:
IRE 2.5 = +8
IRE 5 = +5
IRE 7.5 = +2

So I lowered them a little yesterday. Brightness is still 52.
 

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On my E6 for gamma 2.2 I set 5IRE luminance to +5, 10IRE to +3, and 15 IRE to +1 with the brightness at 50. I can faintly see a 0.5% slide in a totally dark room after allowing my eyes to adjust. So I am not losing any near black detail. As far as noise, in the picture settings, set noise reduction to Auto. It generally clears up a lot of the near black noise.
I don't remember the exact settings I tried, because it was years ago. But I followed the advice in this thread, so pretty sure I tried everything suggested at the time. I also recall playing around with various settings myself. Nothing I tried raised near black high enough without also making artifacts more visible. The setting that worked best for me was changing gamma from BT.1886 to 2.2. Still not perfect, but much better.
Could someone explain why to use negative IRE values instead of positive?

My current IRE settings on B9 are:
IRE 2.5 = +8
IRE 5 = +5
IRE 7.5 = +2

So I lowered them a little yesterday. Brightness is still 52.
Guys - so sorry - I am NOT using negative values! What a dummy. I use a -2 ramp down system and I start at IRE5 = +12. So mine are something lke this:
IRE 35 = 0
IRE 30 = +2
IRE25 = +4
IRE 20 = +6
IRE 15 = +8
IRE 10 = +10
IRE 5 = +12

Hope that make more sense. LOL! :)
 

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Guys - so sorry - I am NOT using negative values! What a dummy. I use a -2 ramp down system but I start at +12. So mine are something lke this:
IRE 30 = +12
IRE25 = +10
IRE 20 = +8
IRE 15 = +6
IRE 10 = +4
IRE 5 = +2

Hope that make more sense. LOL! :)
I use the opposite. I start with my highest value at 5 IRE and ramp down from there.
 

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I use the opposite. I start with my highest value at 5 IRE and ramp down from there.
Really? Hmmmm. I could try that and see what happens.
 

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This would make more sense to me, as you'd want the the darkest parts brightened up more than the lighter parts.
Maybe so - I might play around this weekend just to see although Im generally happy with how things are looking now.
 

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I use the opposite. I start with my highest value at 5 IRE and ramp down from there.
This would make more sense to me, as you'd want the the darkest parts brightened up more than the lighter parts.
OK - I am officially dumb. I also already use the IRE5 = +12 , IRE10 = +10, IRE15 = +8, and so on. Sorry for any confusion. Massive brain fart.
 
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I’ve been trying the IRE settings too for my SDR settings on my B9 and it seems to help a little - but does anyone have any suggestions on how to tweak the HDR settings? Most of the time it looks great, but occasionally the black crush will rear its’ ugly head a bit much.
 
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