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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been diligently working on the improvement of the contrast and brightness of Light Fusion ever since the revelations made explicitly clear to me by my Canadian brethren after a sorjourn up north to personally paint one for evaluation.



I'm pretty sure I have accomplished all I set out to do.


The most prevalent comment was that a MMud LF was no brighter than UPW on a flat surface. Secondly, the very translucency and depth of MMud/Mirror applications did nothing to overtly enhance contrast. The fact that subtle detail and definition in shadow was increased was lost in the overall determination that "Blacks" were not a "Black" on LF as they were with UPW. A further study by another party determined that a pure MMud coat on a surface also failed the "CR" test against UPW.


While an argument could be made (...who? me? :confused: :rolleyes: :D ) that MMud alone was never intended as a "stand alone" screen paint (...although many DO swear by it...) the real matter at hand was how it performed as the specified coating of choice to achieve the "Light Fusion" effect.


Since there seem to be an upwelling of dissent on that matter from several unbiased and influential posters, it seemed prudent to explore other solutions toward a "fix". Shortly thereafter, MMud-SE was born. Not out of desperation, but out of the experiments many besides myself had been doing with the magical, mystical Silver Metallic Faux paint Behr produces.


Most early experiments by others centered around the addition of SM in amounts in excess of 1-2 Oz per Quart. On a Flat surface mind you, not a Mirror...BTW. That produced a very dark screen, and subsequently, a very dark, and color shifted image. Also, quite a restrictive viewing cone They passed away.


Instead, I focused on very slight amounts, 1 or 2 ounces respectively. 3 Oz. at the very most. And mixed into a "3 quart MMud mix" My hope was two fold. As a "Stand Alone' mix, that MMud-SE could be adapted by the DIY'ers to adjust to almost any PJ/Room application that could be reasonably expected of that combo; and as a variable Top Coat for Light Fusion applications, be they 2nd or 1st Surface...Mirror or "Mirror like" materials, or simple Aluminum or Mylar sheets.


My reasoning was, upon observing how much coverage I was getting with each "HVLP Sprayed" coating, was that I was going to be able to both 'attenuate' the light in just the right wavelengths with the additional "grey" in the SM, I was going to also keep the "brilliance" of lighter colors and whites. An added plus? Increased "true ambient"* light performance. *NOT 9-AM, Drapes open, Sunbeam on the screen "Ambient Light" :rolleyes:


Where once, 3-4 thin coats were needed with the white, translucent MMud, now two, reasonably applied coats were doing the trick. If a very slight amount of rear reflection was still apparent upon inspection, only the slightest "dusting" of the screen with another coat was required. all this told me was that many more Newbees were going to feel more confident that their efforts would result in LF screen that exhibited the same characteristics that my own did, as evidenced by the screen shots I provide.


Yeah. screen shots. By now, all the discussions have centered around how cameras cannot be trusted to capture what is being seen, due to artifically enhance contrast, interpolated images, inability to determine "SDE", etc. The list is long.


Let me simplify. Capturing good, basic imagery is difficult with any display due to uneven light output, (excessively bright output within a narrow light frequency range (hot spotting) and the lack of a evenly balanced light output across a broad spectrum of colors. (...resulting in Blooming with some, Crushing with others.)


In the two years now I've been advocating LF screens, I'm still using the exact same 4.2 mp Toshiba. On Auto App. / Auto Focus As time has gone by, and while using the same basic PJ/DVD/Screen combos, it has been apparent that refinements to the DIY mfg of Light Fusion, as well as the improvement in the Top Coat MMud mix itself have resulted in screen shots with a remarkable increase in quality. Same camera. Same DVDs. Same PJs. Same 'ol Me. And MMud-SE


Of course, for those who continue to dispute the relevancy of screenies as either a diagnostic tool, or as a criteria on which to judge image quality as it appears in person..., no screenie will ever pass muster as being valid.


But for those 'very few' people, this thread doesn't cater to. No, the ones contained within shall be judged by those either familiar with my past efforts, that what they have seen posted elsewhere, or merely by their own 'first time' judgement. So, the rest of you who are interested in this latest development, read on, feast your eyes, and consider your options.

MMud-SE for LF Mirror or Flat Surface Applications


What you'll need.


Warning and Disclaimer:

Use ONLY Behr Paints from Home Depot. If ya don't use exactly what I specify, and in the amounts I specify, don't complain on this or any other thread about differing results. Ditto if you have a question about application procedure. Ask first, squirt (...or roll, God forbid!) later. If you wish to experiment and change up something, call it by any other name but Light Fusion or MMud-SE. and make note of that in your posts as well.


1. Make sure your surface is flat, smooth, and featureless. If not, email me & ask me for instructions.


2. Go to Home Depot and get the following:


a. 1 quart Behr Ultra Pure White "Exterior Flat " or "Eggshell" if you have a CRT $10.00

b. 1 quart Behr Deep Base "Exterior" $10.00

c. 1 quart Behr White Opal Pearlescence (Premium Plus w/Style Faux Paint) $17-19.00

d. 1 quart Behr Silver Metallic (Premium Plus w/Style Faux Paint) $ 17-19.00

e. 1 quart Distilled or Filtered Water $ 1.49. (Bring this...HD doesn't carry such.)

f. 1 empty Gallon Can

g. 1 "pour Spout" type Lid.

h. 3 or 4 -1 gallon Nylon "Sock Style" Paint Strainers

i. "Drill Type' paint mixer. The "Squirrel cage" or "Hamster Wheel" type of cylindrical mixer is best by far.



Have Home Depot "Shake Mix" a./b./c. with "(1) One Oz. of Silver Metallic and 24 Oz Water


You'll need a good HVLP Gun (minimum quality; The INGERSOLL RAND 270 available at Lowes. $99.00 Other inferior Guns may work OK for a single screen. Then again, they may not.


Use a 1.4 mm to 1.7 mm nozzle with "water thinned' MMud-SE A larger nozzle use will result in "splatters" if the mix is thin, and a highly textured, "sandpaper-like" coat if the MMud is left 'un-thinned' and squirted from a 2.0 mm+ nozzle.


Now when anybody is ready to spray, email me and let me know. Advice and outright assistance is yours for the typing. Those who are rushed and need 'real time' assistance my email first for a phone number. Remember, I'm a business owner who does this and similar things for a everyday living. I'm still available on the spur...usually, but take any request, even an abrupt one, to allow a call back with courtesy and aplomb. You'll get it, fer sur.


Now, complete with captions, a dossier of MMud-SE images.



122" Light Fusion (1/8" mirror w/ MMud-SE -1 Oz SM per 3 qt mix.)

Z2 Non calibrated, but set to Factory 6500k

Samsung 851 HD-DVD


The Builder of the home and his favorite Sushi dish

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...anandSushi.jpg


Check out the detail and depth of this shot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...understand.jpg


The prerequisite "LeeLoo on the ledge" shot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...otcloserin.jpg


Bruce and Stewardess. What are they gawkin' at?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tewardess1.jpg


OH! Ruby Rhod!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ntshimself.jpg


The Diva is Down. Note the "Silver Tubes" despite the "Blue Skin" proximity. From a LCD no less!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...DivasBleed.jpg




For all those still laboring along with dial up but who opted to wait for the loading, I appreciate your patience.


Next post will contain Nemo and a few ambient light photos of Pirates Of the Caribbean.
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Smile! Your invited to lunch!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ruceisback.jpg


I like this photo. Note the 'eveness' of the color saturation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...upoffishes.jpg


Here is the one shot most difficult to capture. Intense colors and brightness often overdrive any camera's metering systems, Not this time though.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...yDadawakes.jpg


Me & the Missus. Now that's a big, bright screen!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...n/DarlanMM.jpg


This last shot is also a 122' er with 2 Oz SM in the 3 quart mix.

The PJ is however quite a bit more expensive. A Infocus 7205 If you can plainly see the human watching the screen, you know the ambient light was high enough to read by.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tLFMMud-SE.jpg


Here is a "long shot" of the owner & his Wife.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tLFMMud-SE.jpg



There will be more images posted if I receive the requests from a few of you to do so. It's up to ya all, those who would like to see more representations of MMud-SE in various formats and PJ combos. I've acquired a bunch this last 6 weeks or so. Coming from everything from Z2s to 2500 lumen 4:3 DLPs (NECs & Optimas) and LF screens ranging from 80" diagonal (4:3) to 140" diagonal (16:9), a few with the maximum amount of SM in the MMud (2 - 80" diagonal 4:3s both w/2600 Lumen NEC 265ks)


I'll leave it up to "all ya all".
 

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On the monitor I'm looking at those have specs all over. They aren't just in the on-screen images, but also outside and even on the shirt in the Nemo shot. They are really bad on the first Fifth Element shot and on the ceiling in the Rhuby Rod shot. Do you see those on the originals? How about on the screen live?


When I saw the LF screen you did in Canada one of the things I thought could have improved it was a little more gain (more of a viewing cone). Maybe I have misinterpreted here, but it sounds like you are going for a little more gain from at least part of this here (which tends to help the ANSI CR retention and off-axis ambient light rejection) now.


EDIT: I was typing as the second post went up. Definitely looks like those specs are unrelated to the screen from those. I'm not sure if everybody is seeing them.


--Darin
 

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Those are awesome results. Hopefully the Light Fusion technique will work with the "contrast and lumen challenged" DIY projectors that are being built using 15 and 17 inch LCDs. The DIY projector community needs all the help it can get. Out of curiousity, what is the lowest lumen projector that you have tested with the Light Fusion?
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi darinP2,


No, of course they are not on the screen. My older camera can sometimes have dust on the lens that causes that sort of thing. But I can usually see it in my cameras LCD depictation and then clean it of the lens. But looking on my monitor (Envision 21"er) I don't see anything that resembles such as you describe.


I don't doubt what you say your seeing though. I did compress these images a bit so as not to aggravate the modem challenged.


Maybe someone else will confirm?


Viewing Cone? What Viewing Cone?! :p



9' feet above the floor, rear right corner.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...theceiling.jpg


From the floor, below the screen and to the left against the front wall.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...omthefloor.jpg


Sideways, at about 170 degrees off axis.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...oosideways.jpg


But if there are some further reports from others about "speckles or dots", I might have to spring for a new camera if the lens itself is marred. the thing does get abused terribly, and after almost 3 years, who still has and uses the same Digicam? Only MMan it would seem.


Ok. Ya got me. take me away.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ohasNoFile.jpg
 

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i am seeing the specs darin so its not just you. they appear in different places and from the distant shot you can see that the specs appear all over the theater as well, but its so apparent to me (and i am not picky about these things) that i can't believe nobody else sees them. it kinda distracting, but the quality of the screen image is still good enough to get the point across


didn't see previous post as i was typing. the pictures definitely have specs and it doesn't appear to be a grainyness but instead flecks of dust or something caused by the camera. that being said i know pretty much know nothing about cameras
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uklit
Those are awesome results. Hopefully the Light Fusion technique will work with the "contrast and lumen challenged" DIY projectors that are being built using 15 and 17 inch LCDs. The DIY projector community needs all the help it can get. Out of curiousity, what is the lowest lumen projector that you have tested with the Light Fusion?


Personally, a 700 lumen LCD (Z1) that at it's very best puts out 350 ANSI lumens.


Others have used PJs along the same lines. There was a recent fellow who wowed us with a DIY LCD PJ creation, but I cannot recall if he shot his image on MMud on a wall, UPW on a wall, or his wife's bedsheet.


But I do remember he was considering LF as possibly being benifical to his endeavor. His questions related to the use of MMud-SE as a stand alone coating, if I'm starting to recall correctly. I advised that without the additional light salvaged by 'mirrored' LF, he might be Snipe huntin'. But since then, with judicious use of the SM, and the advent of using a Bright white Gloss undercoat, a "paint only" option seems more than feasible for that sort of thing.


But I do KNOW that this latest MMud-SE "mirrored" LF application gets several jobs done nicely. Only some independent evaluations from a few intrepid souls who jump in to try it as described will tell a tale that a few doubters will opt to beleive. I'm hoping this time the presentation of such by me, and the trials by others can keep a informative and constructive tune playing. Until then, you all have to take my word, and the appearence of these latest screenies as the only thing to base any judgements upon. :cool:


I'll stand by any such judgements made. And do so by offering any/all assistance I can, thereby living or dying by the end results I have personally been involved with, even by proxy.


But don't send any bills for materials to me, please! :eek:
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootron
i am seeing the specs darin so its not just you. they appear in different places and from the distant shot you can see that the specs appear all over the theater as well, but its so apparent to me (and i am not picky about these things) that i can't believe nobody else sees them. it kinda distracting, but the quality of the screen image is still good enough to get the point across


didn't see previous post as i was typing. the pictures definitely have specs and it doesn't appear to be a grainyness but instead flecks of dust or something caused by the camera. that being said i know pretty much know nothing about cameras


Thanks for the "Heads UP" bootron,


I have as of late, noticed "Bubbles" in some of my low light Flash shots. When that occurs, and I look at the lens, I do usually find some dust to wipe off.


Many times, in fact most of the time, I'm doing what I do on a "Job Site', that is less than spotless. I sometimes must set my Camera down where there is plenty of dust present. Add to that the fact I often carry the darn thing around in my Truch, on the right side Floor up front, and itwould seem plausible that the lens can get pretty crummy. When I took the shots above, I was pressed for time, dinner was waiting at home, 20 miles distant, and so I did not do much in the way of composing. I went to work with DVDs I knew, got 'em up there, and banged away. Most deffinately NOT like my usual MO where I might spend 3 hours, check every shot, delete the stinkers (fuzzy, shaky ones primarily...) and work toward being SURE everting broght home to upload was worthy of note.


I'll be all the more careful next time. I beleive I'll be back at that house on Tues./Wend or thereabouts, so I'll endeavor to retake, and replace these shots wherever possible, so as not to irritate.


Once again, thanks!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
......Only some independent evaluations from a few intrepid souls who jump in to try it as described will tell a tale that a few doubters will opt to beleive. I'm hoping this time the presentation of such by me, and the trials by others can keep a informative and constructive tune playing.....
You'll be hearing about my trial and evaluation when I finish my Light Fusion screen. Since blackout cloth is the "standard" screen in the DIY projector community, I suspect I have nothing to loose and everything to gain by attempting this project. Thanks for the "Light Fusion" contribution. I'm looking forward to the results.
 

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Quote:
2. Go to Home Depot and get the following:


a. 1 quart Behr Ultra Pure White "Exterior Flat " or "Eggshell" if you have a CRT $10.00

b. 1 quart Behr Deep Base "Exterior" $10.00

c. 1 quart Behr White Opal Pearlescence (Premium Plus w/Style Faux Paint) $17-19.00

d. 1 quart Behr Silver Metallic (Premium Plus w/Style Faux Paint) $ 17-19.00

e. 1 quart Distilled or Filtered Water $ 1.49. (Bring this...HD doesn't carry such.)


f. 1 empty Gallon Can




Have Home Depot "Shake Mix" a./b./c. with "(1) One Oz. of Silver Metallic and 24 Oz Water
How does all of that fit into a 1 gallon can?

Is the SM the actual paint or is it the pigment?

I can't tell if this is a new mixture or just firming up one of the mixes we've been talking about for a while.


Thanks,
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte
How does all of that fit into a 1 gallon can?

Is the SM the actual paint or is it the pigment?

I can't tell if this is a new mixture or just firming up one of the mixes we've been talking about for a while.


Thanks,
As previously quoted above in the opening post;
Have Home Depot "Shake Mix" a./b./c. with "(1) One Oz. of Silver Metallic and 24 Oz Water


I know it was a long read, but as in past discriptions of the 1:1:1 MMud mix, 3 quarts of paint plus 1-2 Oz of SM plus 16 to 24 Oz water still leaves you with 6 Oz. space remaining in a Gallon Can in the very least.


The necessary purchase of an entire Quart of SM just to obtain a couple ounces is the only real stinker, but look at it this way. Something, somewhere around the house will get a nice Faux coating of SM on it. Choose wisely.


Or....one of your friends, or another AVS'er can share. Someone you know might not be ready to opt in for the "Mirror" treatment, but a batch of 6 quart batch of MMud-SE is only twice the cost, but shared equally isn't much more than another $9.00 extra to obtain the SM for both parties. A MMud-SE screen painted on the wall or any board-like substrate will still please most anyone mightily.


Or....., I've shipped several Jars about via FedEx, even Overseas (...and in "these" times, no less...) so "Getting it there" to another interested AVS'er via cheap Ground Frieght is no real task.
 

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MM,

Can you please explain to me... why the useage of a mirror as oposed to something else. Does the reflectivity of the mirror show through?? Or is it because it's smooth and uniform?

Thanks
 

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MM,


How dark is the unlit screen? Do you have a shot of just the unlit screen in a normally lit room?


Have you experimented with darker gray's to shed ambient light?


Thanks,

Ken
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ask and ye shall receive.


The screen in question (same as above...)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...nScreenraw.jpg


..and a close up of the corner for your inspection

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rawcloseup.jpg



It does not take much SM within the MMud mix to do what needs to be done. The most I've added at anytime was 3 Oz to 3.5 quarts for a 4:3 application @- 82" diagonal, receiving 2600 lumens from a NEC 265k DLP


It had wonderful ambient light properties, but the lumens made the utilization of so much SM possible. Don't go there with under 1600 lumens, or do so as an experiment, not on my recomendation.
 

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Are those deftechs i see?
 

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Amazing pictures there really. Usually I don't compliment the pictures. They all begin to look the same, but thats enough to make a CRT user who hasn't yet set up his system envious. I hope I am not later rethinking why I have this bulky box when that seems to look so good.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
Viewing Cone? What Viewing Cone?
Thanks. Those shots do look good. I think the same shots with a piece of Matte White screen or something like that layed over part of the image would really give this perspective though.


--Darin
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants
MM,

Can you please explain to me... why the useage of a mirror as oposed to something else. Does the reflectivity of the mirror show through?? Or is it because it's smooth and uniform?

Thanks
Dearest Wise Britches,


As opposed to almost any other reflective surface, a Mirror is usually the most reflective, hands down.


Polished Aluminum is "Mirror -like.


Every Mirror uses a pure aluminum paint to create the mirror reflection.


The surface is as smooth as you could ever hope to find, so texture becomes something you must cause to happen, not something you have to deal with from the get-go.


Properly done, there should never be an indication that there is a Mirror behind the Top coat. In reverse, the Top Coat must be thin enough to allow enough light through to react to the mirror, get a subtile CR boost that enhances shadow detais, land create the "Glow" that permeates the entire "gap" and subsequently creates a even dispersion of light from every sq. inch of screen. No Hot Spots. No dim edges.


The addition of the SM is what this thread is all about, and the reclaimation of Black levels apparently lost via the increase in the LF screens perceived luminosity.


IMO, of course. ;)
 
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