Light Switches: Insteon vs RadioRa2 vs Zigbee vs Wifi

10455 Views 33 Replies 11 Participants Last post by jautor, Feb 23, 2014

jon512

Discussion Starter · Feb 16, 2014

I have a 3-story home with concrete floors and 16 light switches. I want to be able to come home and light a pathway from the garage to my living/kitchen area with a simple press of a button, so that requires some kind of processor that I need to program. I also have some 3-way lights, again, needs processing. My light switches need to have a good signal through concrete floors. I am looking for a do-it-yourself option, probably some kind of IP-connected device that can talk to the light switches. The switches themselves need to work responsively and reliably, and have the ability to identify switches in zones/rooms/floors.

Insteon comes up a lot in my searches of do-it-yourself lighting systems. However my local A/V techs all recommend either ZigBee or RadioRa2, but they are resellers of those products so I don't know if they have used other options. I also see there are new wifi-enabled switches coming out soon, like myube.co.

I like that each ZigBee switch acts as an RF repeater to each other, so the more I have, the stronger the signals will be. However those switches seem to be very expensive. I have no idea what RF signals RadioRa2 uses but it sounds solid. I also like Wifi options because I have multiple wifi access points for a very strong signal and they would already be on the network without buying a bridge. My wifi security is very tight assuming any wifi switches would work with WPA2 and no exploits are discovered in the future.

Anyone know the advantages/disadvantages of one technology over the other? I would like to spend no more than $75 per switch.

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Dean Roddey

· #2 · Feb 16, 2014

The RadioRA2 is a very solid, pro level system. It doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles but it almost always just works basically. And the automation system interface is available and straightforward, which is nice from my point of view as an automation system vendor.

Zigbee is nice, but in terms of open Zigbee systems there aren't a lot of them to choose from yet. Most vendors are choosing to use proprietary Zigbee stacks which means their Zigbee based widgets will only work with their controllers. They probably see no reason to do the work and let others benefit from it I guess. Of course RadioRA2 widgets only work with RadioRA2 as well, AFAIK, but it's not pretending to be an open standard, which Zigbee is often thought of as being, which confuses the issue. Zigbee can be open but doesn't have to be.

What Zigbee-based system is being recommended? If using Zigbee means you are buying into a whole specific automation system, then that's sort of different than if it's just Zigbee lighting that can be integrated into whatever automation system you might want to use at some point. RA2 is also somewhat of a world unto itself in so far as the actual hardware, but it's designed to be easily integrated into 3rd party automation systems.

Even if you do settle on an open Zigbee-based lighting system, and it provided an integration interface to automation systems, it's not necessarily the case that any particular automation system you might choose would be able at this point to integrate to Zigbee, though it's probably becoming more common. For RA2 it's just an IP connection.

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jon512

Discussion Starter · #3 · Feb 16, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24366735

What Zigbee-based system is being recommended? If using Zigbee means you are buying into a whole specific automation system, then that's sort of different than if it's just Zigbee lighting that can be integrated into whatever automation system you might want to use at some point.

Control4 installers recommended Zigbee, but seemed to be pushing their equipment without much knowledge over other lighting systems and DIY systems. They explained the benefit of each light switch acting as a signal repeater for the next, so the more switches, the stronger the signal. As for Control4, I like the concept but don't like buying into a whole system and being locked in to their hardware and services forever. It would frustrate me having a smart home without a way to change the programming myself.

I do see that a do-it-yourself controller like Insteon's ISY994 Pro supports Zigbee. The Zigbee light switches/dimmers are over $100 (expensive) so I am wondering if they are really worth the 2x price over Insteon switches and other options. Willing to go RadioRa2 or Zigbee if the benefits are truly worth it.

joe277

· #4 · Feb 16, 2014

As far as lighting you are very limited with DIY systems. Pretty much Insteon. There are a handful of other basic lighting control options out there, but not sure if they can do what you want. Lutron RadioRa2 is probably what you should use, but it's not DIY and the switches are more than you will spend. Zigbee and Zwave are a couple of options you can purchase from Home Depot or Lowes. They work ok, but I can't recommend anything in particular. Zwave devices can generally all work together and are not brand specific (with a few exceptions.) However, Zigbee devices do not work with each other unless from the same company. Check out both Zwave's and Zigbee's websites for more information, as well as which products are certified. Not sure you can program a "path" into any DIY lighting except maybe the Insteon stuff. Maybe Leviton's Zwave switches?

jon512

Discussion Starter · #5 · Feb 16, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe277 /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24366847

Zigbee devices do not work with each other unless from the same company. Check out both Zwave's and Zigbee's websites for more information, as well as which products are certified. Not sure you can program a "path" into any DIY lighting except maybe the Insteon stuff. Maybe Leviton's Zwave switches?

So yeah, as you and Dean have mentioned, Zigbee sounds more of a closed system and probably not a good idea for DIY.

Z-wave sounds nice and I love how open it is, but I am concerned about reliability and the responsiveness. Reviews seem a bit mixed. I have yet to hear anyone say they "love" their Z-wave light switches. Though I do like the idea of being able to add Z-wave door locks and thermostats which would all be on the same system, but means nothing if the home automation does not work reliably.

joe277

· #6 · Feb 16, 2014

It is all about the Main Control system. That's why you aren't going to find many DIY Home Automation systems that actually work really well.

Also, with Zwave, just because you have a Zwave lighting system and Zwave door locks (there are also Zigbee locks) doesn't mean they will work together. You still need a device between the Zwave devices and the "control" system. It's a little strange, but that's another reason the DIY is tough in this particular region. You could check out Schlage. They have a Zwave controller that controls their door locks, but I believe the system is compatible with certain Zwave lights. But I'm still not sure you can design a "path" of light with it. That brings us back to the Insteon system, which I only know a little about.

Neurorad

· #7 · Feb 17, 2014

Limited Lutron RA2 is absolutely DIY. DIY is supported with smallish installs, but large installs require a dealer. I think the cutoff would be around 30 devices, but more can be done if you don't have a lot of keypads. And, involving a pro isn't as difficult as you think, but it does raise the cost. Also, it's not always simple to install. I spent a few hours today overcoming a network issue (without resorting to calling tech support; a buddy helped). Probably would have taken 20 minutes if I knew more about Windows firewalls, or I called Lutron Tech Support (24/7 support hard to beat)).

So, Lutron is more expensive, but you pay for quality, and 24/7 TS.

Dean Roddey

· #8 · Feb 17, 2014

Zigbee devices CAN work together from different manufacturers, if they choose to use standard Zigbee stacks. That was sort of the promise of Zigbee initially. But, they also have the option to use their own proprietary stack, and most seem to be doing that. The only companies that would probably use the standard stacks are the ones who only sell the individual widgets. The companies that sell the actual automation systems want to have a proprietary advantage for their own systems, and to lock in revenues on the bits and pieces. Of course that also means that they will probably sell them for less since you have to buy a bunch of other stuff from them a well, whereas the folks who sell the individual widgets probably have to charge more to make it a viable proposition, at least for now early in the (general Zigbee adoption) game.

eatenbacktolife

· #9 · Feb 17, 2014

You could do what you want easily with Insteon, without a central controller. A Keypad and some switches/dimmers could do your first request by setting scenes on the switches themselves. You could also accomplish this using Insteon motion sensors.

They don't make 3 way switches, so you just buy two dimmers/switches and create a virtual 3 way. This can be done on the switches.

There are Insteon controllers if you want more advanced automation.

Insteon does needs a neutral at the switch location, something to keep in mind. Considering their low cost, and Amazon's great return policy you can always pick a few up and give it a try.

jautor

· #10 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24367070

Limited Lutron RA2 is absolutely DIY. DIY is supported with smallish installs, but large installs require a dealer. I think the cutoff would be around 30 devices, but more can be done if you don't have a lot of keypads.

Actually, it's a 100 devices (which is really like 96 with some reserved)...

Just finishing up my RadioRA2 install - all DIY, and the stuff is just rock solid.

Quote:
So, Lutron is more expensive, but you pay for quality, and 24/7 TS.

+1!

jon512

Discussion Starter · #11 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by eatenbacktolife /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24367262

Insteon does needs a neutral at the switch location, something to keep in mind.

Quick google search shows a neutral wire is colored in white, and should be visible if I unscrew my light switches, right? Obviously I will be careful, and will probably have an electrician replace any switches I buy. This house was built within the last year, so I would expect it to have good wiring.

eatenbacktolife

· #12 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon512 /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24367318

Quick google search shows a neutral wire is colored in white, and should be visible if I unscrew my light switches, right? Obviously I will be careful, and will probably have an electrician replace any switches I buy. This house was built within the last year, so I would expect it to have good wiring.

Usually. It won't be connected to the switch itself, it will be under a wire nut in the box if they ran them to switch location. If your house is a year old, you should have them at switch location since it's code as far as I know.

joe277

· #13 · Feb 17, 2014

Ra2 shouldn't be DIY. The software should only be available to those that have taken the class (it's really only a few hours). But it's available pretty freely. The next level up software is much harder to come by and shouldn't be available for DIY. 2nd level software adds features and the ability to have up to 200 (i think) devices.

jon512

Discussion Starter · #14 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24367311

Just finishing up my RadioRA2 install - all DIY, and the stuff is just rock solid.

Lutron sounds like quality, and the brand name alone will increase the value of the home. That is why I would consider paying 2x the price for Lutron switches. BUT Lutron RadioRa2 switches are 3x the price over Insteon. Is it worth it? Curious if anyone has tried both and can compare.

Can the Lutron RadioRa2 switches themselves be programmed to do things like light a pathway and handle 3-way lighting, or do I still need to find a controller that isn't crazy expensive and doesn't lock me in to a single company's home automation forever?

Insteon seems good for the DIYer because the 994i processor unit is fairly inexpensive and (from what I can tell online) seems like it can do a lot, plus has an API for integrating with apps and programs which may strengthen its technology as future apps develop.

jautor

· #15 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon512 /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24367935

Lutron sounds like quality, and the brand name alone will increase the value of the home. That is why I would consider paying 2x the price for Lutron switches. BUT Lutron RadioRa2 switches are 3x the price over Insteon. Is it worth it? Curious if anyone has tried both and can compare.

I have, although I didn't go very far at all with the Insteon gear. But to do anything more than basic, you'll want a controller.

Quote:
Can the Lutron RadioRa2 switches themselves be programmed to do things like light a pathway and handle 3-way lighting, or do I still need to find a controller that isn't crazy expensive and doesn't lock me in to a single company's home automation forever?

The RadioRA2 system requires a Main Repeater (controller), which has both Ethernet and RS232 connectivity for automation/integration. 3-way switched circuits are handled with inexpensive remote dimmers (RD-RD, which are just dummy devices that signal over the traveler wire) . Installing them is very simple, they just go wherever the 3-way switch was before...

Quote:
Insteon seems good for the DIYer because the 994i processor unit is fairly inexpensive and (from what I can tell online) seems like it can do a lot, plus has an API for integrating with apps and programs which may strengthen its technology as future apps develop.

Lutron's API is published and available, and their free iOS app is quite nice. Remote access through them does cost $60/year if you want that. But the system has a number of sensors, alarm triggers, car visor integration, etc. Lots and lots of stuff...

It is 2-3x as expensive as Insteon gear, but like I said, it's just rock solid and works. Also, I haven't kept up with the latest offerings from Insteon, but Lutron's new "standard" dimmer is made for dimming the low-wattage load from LED's - the minimum load figures are quite important as you design your setup.

If anything, go to Lutron's learning site and take the intro courses (aka watch the videos). That will give you an idea of what you can do... There are many folks on the board here that have either RadioRA or Insteon, so regardless, you should get a lot of info on both systems.

Jeff

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Neurorad

· #16 · Feb 17, 2014

Technically, it's 100 'devices', for Lutron RA2. But a keypad can eat up 6 of those, and I think 'phantom buttons' would also eat into that total. I have many 3 way switches, and each of those adds up too. I misspoke; I should have stated ~30 loads.

jautor

· #17 · Feb 17, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24368686

Technically, it's 100 'devices', for Lutron RA2. But a keypad can eat up 6 of those, and I think 'phantom buttons' would also eat into that total. I have many 3 way switches, and each of those adds up too. I misspoke; I should have stated ~30 loads.

I don't think that's correct... They only mention the phantom buttons that consume 4 slots, otherwise each device counts only once. And the remote dimmer/switches (RD-RD and RD-RS) don't communicate via RF, so they're in the software only for design purposes.

I opened up my project, and it shows 40/100 devices - which equals the number of switches/keypads I have. Adding a keypad to the system adds one to the device count, but adding a remote dimmer doesn't...

We need Paul to chime in!

Jeff

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joe277

· #18 · Feb 17, 2014

jautor has his information right. RadioRa2 can definitely be programmed for a "pathway" scene. However RadioRa2 gets much more expensive than Insteon when you want to purchase multi-button dimmers. However, the 3way switch/dimmers mentioned are only around $40/$50 a piece which helps with overall cost. The RR2 Main repeater only reaches 30ft in all directions. Any farther will require a repeater which can be hardwired or used wireless. Rumor I heard also has the RR2 system controller Lutron's inexpensive Caseta dimmers... but that's all rumor.

Insteon is definitely more DIYer friendly though.

jon512

Discussion Starter · #19 · Feb 18, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by jautor /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24368264

The RadioRA2 system requires a Main Repeater (controller), which has both Ethernet and RS232 connectivity for automation/integration.

Thanks for the info. Is the RR-MAIN-REP-WH the latest repeater that can talk to Lutron RadioRa2 switches? I am starting to price the things to buy, to see how Lutron compares to Insteon and other lighting systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24368264

If anything, go to Lutron's learning site and take the intro courses (aka watch the videos). That will give you an idea of what you can do

I will do that. Thanks.

jautor

· #20 · Feb 18, 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon512 /t/1518212/light-switches-insteon-vs-radiora2-vs-zigbee-vs-wifi#post_24374996

Thanks for the info. Is the RR-MAIN-REP-WH the latest repeater that can talk to Lutron RadioRa2 switches?

Yes, that's the "controller" for the system. Position it somewhere central, and you can likely cover the whole house with it...

As you're pricing gear, note that Lutron and dealers offer "starter kits" which bundle gear together at a discount.

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

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