Saw the movie a few nights ago and trully enjoyed it. Good movie aside, was I the only one who noticed terrible EE throughout the movie ? Colors were gorgeous, with some impressive depth to certain shots but ultimately excessive (understatement) edge enhancement which ruined what could have been a demo piece. BTW, this was rented from BBV so I'm not aware if there is anoother version out there.
Lilo & Stitch - In the dictionary under EE ?
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Yes, I too noticed the excessive EE. Can't believe that there hasn't been as many complaints. This disc is perhaps the biggest offender I've seen all year.
Just goes to you that you can't please everybody. You get a disc like Attack of the Clones with ZERO EE and people complain that it looks "too soft" and then you get Lilo & Stitch with some of the worst EE I've ever seen and virtually no mention of it.
This is a scary thought: "maybe" Hollywood is right! If home theater enthusiasts don't like what a disc with no EE looks like and don't complain about something like Stitch, then perhaps all of us deserve it.
Personally, there isn't anything that pulls me out of the "film-like" experience than EE. Nope, for me - the bed is better left "too soft", than "too sharp". I don't believe in any of the artificial "enhancements".
Just goes to you that you can't please everybody. You get a disc like Attack of the Clones with ZERO EE and people complain that it looks "too soft" and then you get Lilo & Stitch with some of the worst EE I've ever seen and virtually no mention of it.
This is a scary thought: "maybe" Hollywood is right! If home theater enthusiasts don't like what a disc with no EE looks like and don't complain about something like Stitch, then perhaps all of us deserve it.
Personally, there isn't anything that pulls me out of the "film-like" experience than EE. Nope, for me - the bed is better left "too soft", than "too sharp". I don't believe in any of the artificial "enhancements".
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Not sure what you all are watching this on....
Yes it has "some" EE, but on my system (Runco DTV-991 FP and HTPC with Radeon8500 using Sonic Cineplayer 1.5, the EE is so slight as to barely be noticable. Compared to other EE ridden tittle like "Phantom Menace", and "The Sound Of Music", Lilo and Stitch barely registers on the EE scale.
Maybe, thats why no one else is complaining...
Vern Dias
Yes it has "some" EE, but on my system (Runco DTV-991 FP and HTPC with Radeon8500 using Sonic Cineplayer 1.5, the EE is so slight as to barely be noticable. Compared to other EE ridden tittle like "Phantom Menace", and "The Sound Of Music", Lilo and Stitch barely registers on the EE scale.
Maybe, thats why no one else is complaining...
Vern Dias
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Vern,
If you re-read my post I mention it's one of the worst I've seen this year. Thus, it's not eligible for surpassing the likes of Sound of Music or TPM. All the reviews I've read have said that this is a superb transfer. I would agree in terms of color fidelity, but the EE very noticible. Stitch isn't as bad overall as Beauty and the Beast, with its low bitrate and EE, but the EE on Stitch may be just as bad in my book. Stitch isn't reference quality in my opinion. I just read one to many great reviews of the transfer. Too bad it turned out this way because, if I remember right, there should've been a digital transfer option available, since I seem to remember this being shown this past summer in digital theaters.
In an unrelated note to the transfer quality, did anyone else notice this film's simularity to the plot of the Iron Giant? The "killing machine" that learns to go against it's nature and learns to love.
If you re-read my post I mention it's one of the worst I've seen this year. Thus, it's not eligible for surpassing the likes of Sound of Music or TPM. All the reviews I've read have said that this is a superb transfer. I would agree in terms of color fidelity, but the EE very noticible. Stitch isn't as bad overall as Beauty and the Beast, with its low bitrate and EE, but the EE on Stitch may be just as bad in my book. Stitch isn't reference quality in my opinion. I just read one to many great reviews of the transfer. Too bad it turned out this way because, if I remember right, there should've been a digital transfer option available, since I seem to remember this being shown this past summer in digital theaters.
In an unrelated note to the transfer quality, did anyone else notice this film's simularity to the plot of the Iron Giant? The "killing machine" that learns to go against it's nature and learns to love.
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It was originally shot on analog film so it can not be a direct to digital transfer.
| Originally posted by JediMaster Matt Vern, ... Too bad it turned out this way because, if I remember right, there should've been a digital transfer option available, since I seem to remember this being shown this past summer in digital theaters.... |
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All children's stories borrow repeatedly from fables, fairy tales, mythology, and each other. How about ET, where the kid "adopts" an alien? Or a fractured fairy tale ugly duckling that really is ugly? That's what so cute about cartoons- they go over familiar territory, with enough new wrinkles to appear novel.
The EE is pretty obvious, but I don't think the kids will mind. Even Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius had some EE, to highlight his hairdo.
| Originally posted by JediMaster Matt In an unrelated note to the transfer quality, did anyone else notice this film's simularity to the plot of the Iron Giant? The "killing machine" that learns to go against it's nature and learns to love. |
The EE is pretty obvious, but I don't think the kids will mind. Even Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius had some EE, to highlight his hairdo.
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My reference was to LNDA's "Terrible EE". My point was that it was not terrible, on my system its not even "bad". Again, maybe that's why no one else is complaining.
Also, since it was sourced from film, as mentioned above, it did have to go through a telecine process.
Vern
Also, since it was sourced from film, as mentioned above, it did have to go through a telecine process.
Vern
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If there was a digital master available from the digital theater, then the DVD "could've" been sourced from it. Granted, the EE could have been added from the digital source as well. I don't want to make it seem like this is a "bad" DVD, just it's not as good as what I've read in several reviews. Animated films are much less forgiving when it comes to EE because of all the hard edges in the image.
While I don't have a Runco front projector, I do have a fully tweaked out Mitsu 65" display with it's interal EE turned all the way down. The EE was still very noticible. It's a situation of raised/false expectations. I went into viewing this DVD after reading a glowing review, comparing it to the likes of AotC's transfer. I don't think it's in the same league, but its not a bad transfer at all. I'd give the transfer a 7 or 8 of ten if reviewed as a whole.
My comments about the simularities between Stitch and the Iron Giant I think go beyond just the passing simularites of the theme of the movie. I just think it's a bit of coincidence that both are animated films, based off of creatures from outer space, both involve broken home families with a child how is looking for someone to fill the void of family/friend. Don't get me wrong, I liked Stitch a lot. It was very funny; but, the whole "familiar" theme just rubbed me the wrong way. Plus I think it's funny that this film began production very shortly after the Iron Giant came out.
While I don't have a Runco front projector, I do have a fully tweaked out Mitsu 65" display with it's interal EE turned all the way down. The EE was still very noticible. It's a situation of raised/false expectations. I went into viewing this DVD after reading a glowing review, comparing it to the likes of AotC's transfer. I don't think it's in the same league, but its not a bad transfer at all. I'd give the transfer a 7 or 8 of ten if reviewed as a whole.
My comments about the simularities between Stitch and the Iron Giant I think go beyond just the passing simularites of the theme of the movie. I just think it's a bit of coincidence that both are animated films, based off of creatures from outer space, both involve broken home families with a child how is looking for someone to fill the void of family/friend. Don't get me wrong, I liked Stitch a lot. It was very funny; but, the whole "familiar" theme just rubbed me the wrong way. Plus I think it's funny that this film began production very shortly after the Iron Giant came out.
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It is a high probability there was only 1 telecine to digital transfer done. So it would be the same "digital master" used for DVD, HDTV, and digital theater.
| Originally posted by JediMaster Matt If there was a digital master available from the digital theater, then the DVD "could've" been sourced from it. ... |
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Good grief, Charlie Brown!
L&S loaded with "EE"? Like Vern, I too must ask what are you people watching these things on?
I viewed L&S on the 36" Sony WEGA TV set via just a plain standalone DVD player (also Sony) and failed to see much (if indeed that much) in the way of that highly hated "enhancement."
Since the "big" system is down for a while, it'll be sometime before I can check the image on the 12 foot wide screen, but would almost wager is going to be another case similar to Shrek where lots of "sky is falling" wails were proclaimed.
Anyway, I would like to see what Bjoern has come up with this one before a final indictment, one way or another, of this transfer is made...
-THTS
L&S loaded with "EE"? Like Vern, I too must ask what are you people watching these things on?
I viewed L&S on the 36" Sony WEGA TV set via just a plain standalone DVD player (also Sony) and failed to see much (if indeed that much) in the way of that highly hated "enhancement."
Since the "big" system is down for a while, it'll be sometime before I can check the image on the 12 foot wide screen, but would almost wager is going to be another case similar to Shrek where lots of "sky is falling" wails were proclaimed.
Anyway, I would like to see what Bjoern has come up with this one before a final indictment, one way or another, of this transfer is made...
-THTS
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I haven't seen that one, but if it's the usual disney scheme, then they may have used some vertical EE. Atlantis had plenty of that (+ artefacts).
Well, I don't know why I chime in, I have not even seen this dvd
EE is a weird thing, one can't never trust another's opinion (at least I don't).
some have seen no EE in LOTR. I found it disturbing in some sequences.
Some have found gladiator to be one of the best PQ. I, for one think it has some very annoying EE+ringing.
To each his priorities, I guess.
Well, I don't know why I chime in, I have not even seen this dvd
EE is a weird thing, one can't never trust another's opinion (at least I don't).
some have seen no EE in LOTR. I found it disturbing in some sequences.
Some have found gladiator to be one of the best PQ. I, for one think it has some very annoying EE+ringing.
To each his priorities, I guess.
You guys have got to have hardware that's making this happen, or making it much worse than it is.
On my system I saw very little EE, and what I did see I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been looking for it.
NEC XG110LC, HTPC, 20' bettercable, custom 1.6 gain screen.
On my system I saw very little EE, and what I did see I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been looking for it.
NEC XG110LC, HTPC, 20' bettercable, custom 1.6 gain screen.
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O.k.
Just to sum up. This isn't the worst DVD transfer in the world. It isn't the best. No, the sky isn't falling. No, Shrek's EE isn't so bad. No, I don't have any hardware in my system that is adding any extra EE. As I said before, I like my images SOFT and film like, with all the detail the source contains and nothing more. No SVM and no EE. My Mits was calibrated by one of the best in the business, CraigM and I even disagreed with him about the SVM setting. He leaves it on for a "crispier" image, I leave it off. I hate EE and articifial image enhancers! It isn't so much for the little halos either. It's because it makes film images look like video.
As I said above, my disatisfaction with Stitch is probably due to unreasonable expectations set by early reviews I read. One of them in particular claimed it was perhaps the best transfer of the year. I think everyone can agree it is far from it. I wish I hadn't seen any of these comments before watching, otherwise perhaps I would've thought it was better than the typical Disney transfer. The only reason I replied to the original message was to prevent anyone else from having the same thing happen to them.
EE on hand drawn animated films sticks out like a sore thumb to me. It's easier for me to live with EE on live action films. Too many hard edges and color transitions.
Tomorrow I may go get a screen grab to show you what I'm seeing.
I'll definately say, this transfer is better than what I just saw of Criterion's That Obscure Object of Desire. One glance at that will clear away any Stitch problems. Of course nobody proclaimed That Obscure Object as having one of the best transfers of the year.
Just to sum up. This isn't the worst DVD transfer in the world. It isn't the best. No, the sky isn't falling. No, Shrek's EE isn't so bad. No, I don't have any hardware in my system that is adding any extra EE. As I said before, I like my images SOFT and film like, with all the detail the source contains and nothing more. No SVM and no EE. My Mits was calibrated by one of the best in the business, CraigM and I even disagreed with him about the SVM setting. He leaves it on for a "crispier" image, I leave it off. I hate EE and articifial image enhancers! It isn't so much for the little halos either. It's because it makes film images look like video.
As I said above, my disatisfaction with Stitch is probably due to unreasonable expectations set by early reviews I read. One of them in particular claimed it was perhaps the best transfer of the year. I think everyone can agree it is far from it. I wish I hadn't seen any of these comments before watching, otherwise perhaps I would've thought it was better than the typical Disney transfer. The only reason I replied to the original message was to prevent anyone else from having the same thing happen to them.
EE on hand drawn animated films sticks out like a sore thumb to me. It's easier for me to live with EE on live action films. Too many hard edges and color transitions.
Tomorrow I may go get a screen grab to show you what I'm seeing.
I'll definately say, this transfer is better than what I just saw of Criterion's That Obscure Object of Desire. One glance at that will clear away any Stitch problems. Of course nobody proclaimed That Obscure Object as having one of the best transfers of the year.
Allright, I guess I'll have to rent it again and take some pictures. I guess bad EE for one person (me) is OK EE for another, is no EE for the rest. I stand by my asessment and will retry the movie after rechecking the entire chain.
The difference between this and other EE offenders is that it's a good transfer with a bad case of EE, whereas most other EE offenders and just plain bad transfers with EE on top to add insult to injury. My comments are based on the presence of EE, period. This is one case where pics will tell the entire story.
The difference between this and other EE offenders is that it's a good transfer with a bad case of EE, whereas most other EE offenders and just plain bad transfers with EE on top to add insult to injury. My comments are based on the presence of EE, period. This is one case where pics will tell the entire story.
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that's odd. I am using a 100" wide screen with a NEC 8" CRT projector. I know TPM has awful EE, but Lilo and Stitch appears to have a little EE but I more or less have to look for it to notice it. Beauty and Beast EE is far more noticeable than L&S. Heck, LOTR is a LOT worse than this transfer in regards to EE.
Allright,
Broke down and bought the DVD (no more renting), and took some pics. Before I took the pics, I sat through most of the movie again and I noticed why most people might not be complaining. Most of the backgrounds on this movie are old-style fixed, and show no EE whatsoever. Look around any "animated" items added to the background and you are almost guaranteed EE. Maybe it's a function of how you watch movies and what you look at, in my case it appears to center around the animated parts. Regardless, EE is very much present throught the movie and I can't imagine how other people do not notice it.
Go to my gallery to see the PICs. ( http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...at=500&thumb=1 )
Broke down and bought the DVD (no more renting), and took some pics. Before I took the pics, I sat through most of the movie again and I noticed why most people might not be complaining. Most of the backgrounds on this movie are old-style fixed, and show no EE whatsoever. Look around any "animated" items added to the background and you are almost guaranteed EE. Maybe it's a function of how you watch movies and what you look at, in my case it appears to center around the animated parts. Regardless, EE is very much present throught the movie and I can't imagine how other people do not notice it.
Go to my gallery to see the PICs. ( http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...at=500&thumb=1 )
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Then it's not EE in the classical sense, where it appears everywhere. It sounds like what you are complaining about is a result of the sytem / software used to do the original rendering of the animation.
I don't consider this to be EE.
Vern Dias
| Most of the backgrounds on this movie are old-style fixed, and show no EE whatsoever |
I don't consider this to be EE.
Vern Dias
Thanks Sergio for posting the pics, and I agree with you I also can't imagine how other people do not notice it.
Vern
Lets not get caught up in some kind of semantics here. Most of us here are familiar with what edge enhancement looks like and until someone figures out a good catch phrase for what we're seeing, or where it comes from, then, EE can be a term used to describe that halo we see on many DVD's these days, especially THX releases. Whatever it is and from whatever sources it comes from IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE and if it's not present on many other releases then there's no excuse for it's existence at all.
Vern
Lets not get caught up in some kind of semantics here. Most of us here are familiar with what edge enhancement looks like and until someone figures out a good catch phrase for what we're seeing, or where it comes from, then, EE can be a term used to describe that halo we see on many DVD's these days, especially THX releases. Whatever it is and from whatever sources it comes from IT SHOULDN'T BE THERE and if it's not present on many other releases then there's no excuse for it's existence at all.
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Nope, certainly not my definition of severe EE. The black line around the object is not EE. The characters were probably drawn that way. EE would show up at EVERY sharp transition, not just around the characters.
The images show a very slight halo, that is EE all right, but it is so slight as to be mostly unobtrusive at a normal magnication. In fact on my system, looking at a 5' x 9' picture from 12' away, it is cartainly not what I would consider any more than slight.
I have been experimenting with different resolutions and different refresh rates recently on my CRT, trying to see if I could optomize any further and observed that EE is more noticable at 950x600 that at my preferred 1280x720.
The severity of EE on a given title also decreased substantially when I installed a 9700 Pro, DX9 and started using VMR9.
Clearly a case of many things interacting to give us different results.
If you look at my first post in the thread, all I said was that this was certainly not a case of severe EE, and I will stand by that position.
Would I like it better if there was no EE? Certainly. But I only really object when the EE is severe enough to ruin my viewing experience.
Vern
The images show a very slight halo, that is EE all right, but it is so slight as to be mostly unobtrusive at a normal magnication. In fact on my system, looking at a 5' x 9' picture from 12' away, it is cartainly not what I would consider any more than slight.
I have been experimenting with different resolutions and different refresh rates recently on my CRT, trying to see if I could optomize any further and observed that EE is more noticable at 950x600 that at my preferred 1280x720.
The severity of EE on a given title also decreased substantially when I installed a 9700 Pro, DX9 and started using VMR9.
Clearly a case of many things interacting to give us different results.
If you look at my first post in the thread, all I said was that this was certainly not a case of severe EE, and I will stand by that position.
Would I like it better if there was no EE? Certainly. But I only really object when the EE is severe enough to ruin my viewing experience.
Vern
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