[oliverg]

Gentlemen, I am a complete noobie. I have just obtained a Barco 1209S.


I wanted to know, what would happen if I put a 1080p signal into a line quadrupler and tried to display it on the 1209s?


I'm suspecting there just isn't enough bandwidth, but just in case I'm wrong, here I am!


Kind regards

 

[Person99]

If it is truly a line quadrupler, it won't do anything. An old quadrupler takes a 480i signal and scales it to 960p.


What are you trying to accomplish with this? The only thing you really need to do to a 1080p signal is frame rate conversion.


Dave

 

[oliverg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99 /forum/post/0


If it is truly a line quadrupler, it won't do anything. An old quadrupler takes a 480i signal and scales it to 960p.


What are you trying to accomplish with this? The only thing you really need to do to a 1080p signal is frame rate conversion.


Dave

The guy I got it off was a kid (the PJ was from his father's company). He was trying to tell me that the line quadrupler would make 1080p "look better" - didn't make sense to me as I thought it was only certain sources that could be "quadrupled" and that the amount of bandwidth required to quadruple a 1080p signal would be incredible.


Only a 480i signal? Thank you, I'll do the appropriate laugh when I see the kid next, thanks very much for your help.

 

[Fellenz]

Nice Find; would you mind saying how much it was.


Just Curious


Erik

 

[kal]



Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverg /forum/post/0


...didn't make sense to me as I thought it was only certain sources that could be "quadrupled" and that the amount of bandwidth required to quadruple a 1080p signal would be incredible.

A quadrupler doesn't quadruple anything you feed it. It has a fixed output resolution of 960p and is usually required that you feed it a 480i signal to begin with.


Native signal: 480i

A doubler: 480p output

A tripler: 720p output

A quadrupler: 960p output

A scaler: Usually anything between 480i -> 1080p (or higher).


The best way to display 1080p on a BArco 1209s is to simply feed the Barco the 1080p signal directly. It's already higher rez than a 'quadrupled' (960p) signal and a well set up 1209s will have no problems diplaying 1080 lines of content without overlap.


Kal

 

[Person99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by kal /forum/post/0


A quadrupler doesn't quadruple anything you feed it. It has a fixed output resolution of 960p and is usually required that you feed it a 480i signal to begin with.

What, you didn't like my answer?!?!?

Anyway, not "usually", "always".

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal /forum/post/0


A scaler: Usually anything between 480i -> 1080p (or higher).

I think this is WAAAAY too much of a generalization. The Faroudja NRS scalers were very popular and the were 480i -> one fixed resolution (720p being the most popular due to the dearth of 720p digitals). Also, there have been scalers released that would not go up to 1080p. Lastly, there are scalers that will only scale (or more accurately "process") 480i and there are those that will process SD and HD resolutions.


Dave

 

[kal]

Just adding my own flavour to the answer... same info more or less, different slant.

In all seriousness however, I find it's sometimes nice for people to see 2-3 people essentially saying the same thing just to confirm. No harm in that.


>> Anyway, not "usually", "always".


Could've sworn there were a few scalers that would take a pure 480p signal as input off a DVD player ... maybe not.


Kal

 

[vertical hold]

Hi Oliverg,

I am running HDMI out to DVI in on my modded 1208G. It seems scalers will be used less and less. My PJ has been been modified but it handles 480p,720p,1080i and 1080p. I use my HDDVD player as a scaler and HD playback device. It's nice not having to use any external boxs. Works well.

 

[Person99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical hold /forum/post/0


It seems scalers will be used less and less.

Scalers have 3 main purposes in an HD world:

1) Frame rate conversion (a CRT cannot handle 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 or 1080i/60 is the wrong frame rate for film).

2) To deinterlace and/or scale 720p and/or 1080i content.

3) To scale the last little bit of legacy SD you watch.


For a decent 9" machine (like OPs 1209s), a scaler is pretty much required because if it is any good, scan lines will be too visible on resolutions much under 960p. Pretty much the only way you don't need a scaler for a 9" is you only watch HD DVD or BD or an upscaling DVD player that goes to 1080p (i.e. never watch HD cable).


A very good 8" can look almost as good at 1080i as a 9" does at 1080p, so you can use 1080i signals straight from the source, but if they are film-based, they will have the wrong frame rate, so you'll need a scaler to convert the frame rate. If you don't mind the 60Hz judder, then with an 8" machine you can live without the scaler.


BTW, there is no such thing as a "1208G". You most likely mean a Barco Graphics (generally abbreviated "BG") 1208--i.e. BG1208/2, or BG1208s, or BG1208s/2 (the original 1208 was only made for 8 months, so you probably don't have a BG1208).

 

[Person99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by kal /forum/post/0



Could've sworn there were a few scalers that would take a pure 480p signal as input off a DVD player ... maybe not.

If that is what you meant, I stand corrected (I tend to just lump SD (along with ED) and HD together in different camps and put PAL and NTSC SD together for scaler discussion purposes)--should have been more clear.


DVDO and others did have ones that would process SD/ED resolutions 480i/p or (for our PAL friends) 576i/p but not HD resolutions. But, you never want to feed a scaler 480p from a DVD player, because it will deinterlace better than the DVD player.


Dave

 

[hrotti]



Quote:
A quadrupler: 960p output

I'm no expert, but my barco has a quadrupler and insists in can

output 1050p (ntsc source) and 1250p (pal source) It might very well be

lying though

 

[oliverg]

I had to give the 1209s back to the previous kid owner who got smart and did some research and found out how much it was worth.


I'm now buying a 1209 off the legendary Curt who has been absolutely fantastic. (I sort of expected as much)


I'm now going to go with Moone's new box and get a FuryHD to try out and do a side by side with

Thanks for all your answers guys!

kind regards

 

[Person99]

You should have given the kid what you are paying for the 1209. The "s" is a better machine.

 

[vertical hold]

That kinda stinks having to give back a 1209s ouch!! I am not sure about the Moone's box since I have never used it. I know the direct DVI mod Greg E made for my BG1208/2 works really well with SD and HD sources and you don't have another external black box to plug in. My player can also pull down film sources to their correct frame rate @ 24fps. You also to not see any flicker or judder when running 1080p @ 60HZ it is smooth looking.

 

[Person99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical hold /forum/post/0


I know the direct DVI mod Greg E made for my BG1208/2 works really well with SD and HD sources and you don't have another external black box to plug in.

An external box gives greater flexibility, cheaper cost, and some have better chip sets. Further, RGB runs can be longer than DVI runs without signal loss. So there are many cases where an external box is a very good solution.

 

[vertical hold]

I don't see how there is any loss when you are using a digital to digital run. Besides HDMI to DVI directly into a CRT,DLP, LCD ect ect will a have a better picture than any RGBHV connection. RGBHV is still an analog signal and is limited. As far as flexibility, my HD player allows me to adjust chroma saturation, brightness, contrast, tint, edge enhacement and can compensate for mosquito block noise that mpeg-2 produces. As far as better chips go it is using Silicon Optix deinterlacing which has a far better scaling engine than most scalers out there. I feel if you have multiple sources than a good scaler is the way to go.

 

[Person99]



Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical hold /forum/post/0


I don't see how there is any loss when you are using a digital to digital run.

The digital info still has to run through wires. DVI/HDMI were not designed for long cable runs. Some decent info:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...-with-hdmi.htm


We have a local guy with a G90 that had a 50 foot DVI run to John's input card. It did not look as good as it should. So he switched it to using a booster in the middle. It improved. Then he switched to one of the optical cables (converts to optical for the long run, then back) and the picture improved more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical hold /forum/post/0


Besides HDMI to DVI directly into a CRT,DLP, LCD ect ect will a have a better picture than any RGBHV connection. RGBHV is still an analog signal and is limited.

This statement demonstrates a lack of understanding about how CRT PJs work. Your CRT projector can ONLY use RGBHV--it cannot consume ANY other type of signal. EVERY other type of signal MUST be turned into RGBHV before the PJ can consume it. If you have a PJ that accepts component, there is an internal transcoder that converts YPrPb to RGBHV. Similarly, if you have a DVI or HDMI input card in your projector, it is really just a transcoder to turn the digital signal (RGB 4:4:4 in the case of DVI) into analog RGBHV.


So, it makes no sense to say that turning the digital signal into RGBHV inside the projector is better than turning it into RGBHV 1" outside the projector. The quality of the DAC doing the work is MUCH MUCH more important than the location of it.


If someone told you flat out that doing the digital to RGBHV conversion inside the PJ is always better, they lied to you or don't understand how CRTs work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vertical hold /forum/post/0


As far as flexibility, my HD player allows me to adjust chroma saturation, brightness, contrast, tint, edge enhacement and can compensate for mosquito block noise that mpeg-2 produces. As far as better chips go it is using Silicon Optix deinterlacing which has a far better scaling engine than most scalers out there. I feel if you have multiple sources than a good scaler is the way to go.

The flexibility I was talking about was the flexibility to use with different brands of PJs. For instance, if you want to upgrade from a 1208/2 to a G90. Other flexibility is the flexibility to run the signal through adjustable gamma boxes (such as kim's) to get a perfect gamma curve on the CRT (which even a barco though good is not perfect and can't be without adjustment).


With regard to better chips, I was talking about the DVI/HDMI receiver chips and the DACs (we were talking about internal vs. external digital to analog converters so I'm not sure what the Silicon Optix chip has to do with anything as you'd be using that whether you had an external or internal DVI or HDMI input).


Dave

 

[vertical hold]

I should have more clear that yes even though you are using a digital source the signal is then converted back to analog. I think most HT owners would perfer to have their PJ's as close to their equipment as possible. A 50ft run would require 5 or 10db amp inline for sure. I am trying to increase my S/N reading as much as I can, so 20 to 25ft cable run would be no problem. As far as Gama control goes some Barco's do have on screen menu adjustments that can be done via remote. I do not see the need to always adjust gama once it is set correctly you should have good gray scale tracking for some time. I think Curt would agree on that one. As CRT's age they will not wear evenly that is why there is a AGC or AKB curcuit that compensates your G2 levels. Once your PJ can not acheive a good gray scale on a high hour units there are two shorting pins on the neck board that allow you to then adjust your gama on the G2 borad correctly. This concludes the lack of understanding of how a projector works class.

 

[YONEXSP]

I don't get it. You buy something. Seller finds out after the fact he under sold it, Tough Sh it! Why would you give it back...

 

[geisemann]

I have tried all the External Boxes thats why I developed my internal card. The external boxes are a poor choice.


Person 99 you really need to brush up on your engineering and signals. You are totaly wrong. Its common sense that if you have something internal you can have a much better picture because you can custom tailor the signal, will not have to go though any cables. Cables themselves are the evil of signal loss. Transmission theory 101 thats why we are all going digital.


Please refer here. Now remember an external box still uses cables. Even if short 3 foot runs will cause major issues because of the lack of balance and capactance peeking and no internal BW upgrades.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messa...79/125179.html


He even said that Eisemann internal card is better before he was paid to promote external boxes from a manufacture????? Some one should report him for putting false information up just to make money.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...553&highlight=


The major problem with External Boxes is that the Ring, Peaking and BW are all lowered. The converter chips has a section that you can put in various values of capacitors to lower the inductance


When taking apart all external boxes I noticed one major flaw they all lacked the Peaking caps. This is because they didn't know how long your cable runs are they just remove them. Causing ring, ghosting, lack of detail. At this point whats the point of DVI you are getting rid of the original point of it. The Barco has trys to make most cable runs ok but still RGBVH is not as good. If you look at the input RGBVH 75 ohm balance on the input string of the barco most of the loss happends when you have an impedance mismatch and poor cable reflections.


The second problem with external boxes is there is no benefit to them over standard RGBVH. If you use a internal Card like mine we upgrade the internal BW to directly connect this into the RGB circurts. We upgrade over 23 amps alone internally.


Remember this all internal. So the advantages of External Vs Internal Are immense.


See the reviews of my customers who have my internal card.

http://www.eisemann-theater.com/inde...=page&SubMenu=


everyone who has purchased has commented how much better it is over both their external boxes and also RGBVH.


We also have come out with 6 revisions since the original release and the new ones are quite amazing.


We don't make this card to make money we do it to help the CRT community. In fact we lose money doing mods most of the time because of the great time it takes to MOD 7 boards, ship back, and customer support how to set up.


Greg