[Spezzy]

Okay guys. After much thinking I think I am decided on a sealed LMS-5400 18". A few things that are worrying me though are:

1. Not enough power. Is the EP2500 going to give me enough?

2. 3.8 cu ft internal or 4.0 (haven't modeled it in winisd yet)

3. I need to beat the F113 and PB12+/2.


I want to be able to be able to get to around 14hz~ with authority, if possible.

If anyone here has any on ideas on how to do such a feat, it would be much appreciated.


Thanks

 

[Willd]

1.) Not enough. Sure, it'll work OK, but the 5400s love power. You don't want to get such a swank driver but then severely under power it.


2) That is enough.


3). It will beat those easily.


That'll sort of depend on room size/gain, but either way it'll do 14Hz better than either of the subs you mentioned.

 

[Spezzy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd /forum/post/0


1.) Not enough. Sure, it'll work OK, but the 5400s love power. You don't want to get such a swank driver but then severely under power it.


2) That is enough.


3). It will beat those easily.


That'll sort of depend on room size/gain, but either way it'll do 14Hz better than either of the subs you mentioned.

How much power in an amp should I be looking for?

My room is 1375 cu ft.

 

[armystud0911]

Severely underpowered? Thats debatable, sure it can take about 4kw in that enclosure, if you will ever turn it up that loud is another story, jpmst is pushing about the same power as an EP2500 to his LMS 5400 and said he didn't need any more power. You can still appreciate the sq of a good driver like the LMS and not power it with enough juice to bottom it out. If you really want to get the most out of your sub and like to push it to its limits, then a 3kw amp is a must. If you have the money for a good amp, definitely get it, if you can only fork over ~$300 right now, you needn't let your budget stop you, you can always get a better amp later.


Edit, thats a tiny room, I'd still get the a QSC PLX 3402 if you can swing it, but an EP2500 would still do an awful lot of damage in that tiny room. You can expect solid 10Hz extension with either amp.

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Severely underpowered? Thats debatable, sure it can take about 4kw in that enclosure, if you will ever turn it up that loud is another story, jpmst is pushing about the same power as an EP2500 to his LMS 5400 and said he didn't need any more power.

Not debateable at all.


Yes you can still appreciate the good SQ of a driver such as the LMS without supplying it with enough power.


Power it with enough huice to bottom it out? Good luck with that one. The xmech on the thing is around 45mm IIRC. He'd have to get a much better amp and play some test tones and what-not to get close to bottoming. He'd clip that poor 2500 much much earlier.


For reference, Ilkka used an amp similar to (maybe a bit more powerful than) the EP2500 in his last test. He was clipping it with the TC-2000 from 40Hz+! And this was off a very solid line, not a usual 15 or 20A house circuit.


Don't give me the "if you have the money" bit. The OP is looking at a $875 driver! Give me a break...


I didn't say it wouldn't work, but it is still underpowered, by quite a bit. Putting the Ep2500 with it IS under powering it, you can't really deny that. Just wait till he wants to crank it up a tad or whatever he is playing has some dynamics in it...clip-clippity-clip-clip.

Quote:
jpmst is pushing about the same power as an EP2500 to his LMS 5400 and said he didn't need any more power.

Of course he is, and I am not surprised he says this. The LMS is such a capable driver that even with less power than it should have, it'll have a good bit of output, but this is where I say "why bother with the LMS if you're not even going to fully utilize it". But hey, thats just my opinion.

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezzy /forum/post/0


How much power in an amp should I be looking for?

My room is 1375 cu ft.

Not just about 'rated' power but amp quality. I'd at least look at some used QSC PLXs . They'll handle a bridged 4ohm load (or any load for that matter) better than the Ep2500.

 

[Richard Mayer]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd /forum/post/0


1.) Not enough. Sure, it'll work OK, but the 5400s love power. You don't want to get such a swank driver but then severely under power it.

Agree. Something like QSC 3602 looks better if you really want to get the best of that driver.

Quote:
2) That is enough.

I would make it bigger so you wouldn't have to use that much power. 5-6 cu ft looks better. You have to use EQ to extend it down to 14 Hz.

Quote:
3). It will beat those easily.

With EP2500 and 3.8 cu ft I wouldn't say easily. It will be really close with the Plus/2 especially in 20-40 Hz range, possibly slightly behind it.

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer /forum/post/0


Agree. Something like QSC 3602 looks better if you really want to get the best of that driver.



I would make it bigger so you wouldn't have to use that much power. 5-6 cu ft looks better. You have to use EQ to extend it down to 14 Hz.



With EP2500 and 3.8 cu ft I wouldn't say easily. It will be really close with the Plus/2 especially in 20-40 Hz range, possibly slightly behind it.

Yeah, more is pretty much always better, but ~4cuft is fine.


I wasn't referring to the EP2500 combo, just the LMS-5400.

 

[NO1B4ME]

You will definitely need an Eq of some sort. Jpmst has a Velodyne SMS-1 and it makes a HUGE difference. I was running a QSC 3202 with 2 JL 12W7's for a week until my sms-1 arrived. It arrived and I plugged it in and what a HUGE difference it makes.



The F113 digs really Deep, you will not best it with the EP2500 and the LMS5400 alone.

 

[Spezzy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NO1B4ME /forum/post/0


You will definitely need an Eq of some sort. Jpmst has a Velodyne SMS-1 and it makes a HUGE difference. I was running a QSC 3202 with 2 JL 12W7's for a week until my sms-1 arrived. It arrived and I plugged it in and what a HUGE difference it makes.



The F113 digs really Deep, you will not best it with the EP2500 and the LMS5400 alone.

Hmm.. Alright. I guess I'll have to order an SMS-1 too then

 

[Willd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezzy /forum/post/0


Hmm.. Alright. I guess I'll have to order an SMS-1 too then

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You don't have to order an SMS-1. Just spend the money you would have spent on an EP2500, and some of the money you would have spent on the SMS-1, to get a better amp.


NO1B4ME said he already had a QSC PLX amp before he got his SMS-1, but adding an SMS-1 to the EP2500 picture won't really help much. The extra EQ will only require more power that the EP2500 will struggle to deliver.


I believe it was TJEli who had two Ep2500s, one per sealed 15" brahma, and an SMS-1. He had an overall better experience when switching to a single QSC PLX 2402. Amp quality is very important, and the power ratings of a particular amp don' tell you all that much.


I'd get something like the Behringer DEQ anyhow.

 

[Spezzy]

Alright. Plan so far is:

1. EDesign Enclosure with 6 cu ft of internal volume.

2. Crown CE4000 or QSC RMX 2450/4050

3. Wait off on the SMS-1 till December


This is my first DIY (I would build my own enclosure, but school and DJ'ing at a club on weekends from 5 p.m. - 12 in the morning don't give me much time.)


I don't have time to model the LMS-5400, so could someone let me know if the 6cu ft is too big or small? Thanks.

 

[Willd]

I'd choose the CE4000 (if not that, a PLX amp).


6ft^3 is fine.

 

[armystud0911]

The RMX is 2450 is basically an EP2500, with a 6'^3 enclosure you may not need an SMS all that much especially with the gobs of room gain your gonna get. As for the amp issue, I never said the EP2500 would bottom out the LMS, I said he would need a lot more power to do that. The ability to bottom out one's driver isn't necessarily a must, TC sounds recommends 1-4kw of power to feed the LMS The EP2500 delivers about 600wpc at 4ohms and delivers more power than that at 2. I can easily bottom out a pair of db500's from one channel of the ep2500 at 35Hz and that should take over 900watts and the amp still didn't clip.


That being said, I still highly recommend he gets something much more beefy, the old QSC PLX 3402 is a great amp, and can be found for a very good price, there really isn't a need to get the new 3602, it's pretty much the same amp, you just have to pay a premium for it because it's new. The Crown CE4000 is an extremely solid amp, however, if you can't feed a 220v line to it, you will be severely crippling its ability. It has been tested to drive over spec with a 220 line, it doesn't do nearly as much with a 110 due to the fact that it just can't get enough voltage headroom to really perform like it ought to.

 

[jeff76]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezzy /forum/post/0


Alright. Plan so far is:

1. EDesign Enclosure with 6 cu ft of internal volume.

2. Crown CE4000 or QSC RMX 2450/4050

3. Wait off on the SMS-1 till December


This is my first DIY (I would build my own enclosure, but school and DJ'ing at a club on weekends from 5 p.m. - 12 in the morning don't give me much time.)


I don't have time to model the LMS-5400, so could someone let me know if the 6cu ft is too big or small? Thanks.

I'm running a pair of jl 13w7's with the rmx 4050hd. The 4050hd is a monster, it was designed primarily for sub applications. I tried an ep2500, rmx 2450, and a crown xti 4000. The 4050hd has way more power than any of the other amps.


I can play it as loud as I want without clipping, all the other amps clipped heavily.


Don't buy a driver of that quality and then skimp on the amp.

 

[Spezzy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 /forum/post/0


The RMX is 2450 is basically an EP2500, with a 6'^3 enclosure you may not need an SMS all that much especially with the gobs of room gain your gonna get. As for the amp issue, I never said the EP2500 would bottom out the LMS, I said he would need a lot more power to do that. The ability to bottom out one's driver isn't necessarily a must, TC sounds recommends 1-4kw of power to feed the LMS The EP2500 delivers about 600wpc at 4ohms and delivers more power than that at 2. I can easily bottom out a pair of db500's from one channel of the ep2500 at 35Hz and that should take over 900watts and the amp still didn't clip.


That being said, I still highly recommend he gets something much more beefy, the old QSC PLX 3402 is a great amp, and can be found for a very good price, there really isn't a need to get the new 3602, it's pretty much the same amp, you just have to pay a premium for it because it's new. The Crown CE4000 is an extremely solid amp, however, if you can't feed a 220v line to it, you will be severely crippling its ability. It has been tested to drive over spec with a 220 line, it doesn't do nearly as much with a 110 due to the fact that it just can't get enough voltage headroom to really perform like it ought to.

IF I were running it in bridged mode, wouldn't the amount of power be 2400w?

I'm slightly confused now, as that was the impression I was under.


Thank you all for all the help. The RMX 4050 is what I had planned on being the final outcome of the entire project, price wise. I was hoping to have this sub for around $1400, not just the amp hehe..


I think the PLX3402 will be what I'm going for. I'll keep this thread updated.


EDIT: I found the 4050 for $949 shipped. I'm gonna have to convince the parents now..

 

[jpmst3]

Well, I am certainly the furthest thing from the authority on DIY subs.


But, in a ~1400 cubic foot room, I can guarantee he will not need much power to reach reference levels. That is, if his room is really only 1400 cubes and does not open to other adjoining rooms.


There is no question that better amps DO make a difference. But, how much difference in a tiny room like that is very debatable. And yes, in this application and certainly in mine the LMS is much more than needed by leaps and bounds. Hell realistically, two SVS PB-10s were more than enough...


But, my theory is it is easier to change out amps than drivers, so why not start a project with the best driver you can afford and worry about the other details later?


As you probably know I am currently using a BKA @1 ohm feeding ~2000-3000 watts, no one really knows what it yeilds in reality, probably less, maybe more??


I tried one BKA on each coil @ 2 ohms, 1 BKA for both coils @ 4 ohm. The only slighly perceptible difference in running the BKA at 1 ohm, as in more power to the LMS, is a stronger bottom end, say below 20 Hz. With only a 6db boost applied at 20Hz it really doesn't take much more than a 1000-1500 watts to yield painful output. Below that I prefer shakers anyway.


Plus, in a room that small you can hear fans on amps, even if modded. That is why I wanted to at least give the BKA a shot for sub duty. Of course, that won't be a problem on most movies, but during quieter segments I did not want to hear any fans.


After all, how loud can you really listen?


If I can hit around 116-119 db on movie passages in my ~1700 cube room with 1000 watts, three thousand more in my mind is just not necessary.

Sure, I guess the LMS could handle 5 Kw of power but unless you are into making basspig style videos with walls buckling, heads exploding and things

, then it is all just somewhat pointless for everyday listening purposes. There is nothing wrong with carnage subwoofer style, but that is just not what my intentions are/were.


It might be worth it to try an EP2500 if you can. Even if you only get 1500 real world watts at 4 ohms (despite being rated @ 2400), I will guarantee you will be more than satisfied with the results. Hell you can probably score a used Ep for

 

[Lindahl]

The Crown XTi has more than enough power to do reference levels in that room (and larger) and has built in EQ and shelf filters, as well, providing you with everything you need to get a sealed subwoofer flat in-room to 10 hz. Sure, other amps might give you more continuous power, but since most subwoofers just need juice for peaks, the caps in it should get you right where you want to be. When you add in the free PEQ, it's a bargain. I wouldn't pay full retail, just check out ebay. I got lucky and got one with manufacturer's warranty that was used in one gig for around $700 shipped - keep your eyes open for these sorts of deals on ANY big-boy amplifier.

 

[Spezzy]

Thanks for the input Lindahl and jmpst

JMPST: I am definitely looking for shaking the room till the walls explode bass

.


Lindahl: I didn't know the XTi had a built in EQ. I'll definitely have to look into them.


Thanks Again!

 

[Willd]



Quote:
As for the amp issue, I never said the EP2500 would bottom out the LMS, I said he would need a lot more power to do that. The ability to bottom out one's driver isn't necessarily a must, TC sounds recommends 1-4kw of power to feed the LMS The EP2500 delivers about 600wpc at 4ohms and delivers more power than that at 2. I can easily bottom out a pair of db500's from one channel of the ep2500 at 35Hz and that should take over 900watts and the amp still didn't clip.

I never said you were referring to the EP2500, I was suggesting that he'd have hard time even supplying enough power under any conditions to bottom the driver out, since A) He'd be limted by the real world output of the amp and B) The limits of the power he'll be using (15 or 20A, then line sag).


And dB500s != LMS-5400. Too many variables at play...and I still wouldn't be surprised if the EP2500 wasn't hard clipping, it can sound an awful lot like bottoming out but not manifest itself in the clip meter. The VC on the 5400 is absolutely insane, and just 'getting by' with an EP2500 is not wise, IMO. But you realize that.

Quote:
IF I were running it in bridged mode, wouldn't the amount of power be 2400w?

Absolutely not. You'd at best be getting 1500-1700W of output, around there anyway.

Quote:
But, my theory is it is easier to change out amps than drivers, so why not start a project with the best driver you can afford and worry about the other details later?

This of course has some merit. Like I said much earlier in the thread. He could get an EP2500, and subjectively, he'd most likely be quite pleased because it will still perform ok. I'd just feel like a fool getting such a nice driver and pairing it with what basically amounts to a budget amp.

Quote:
Thank you all for all the help. The RMX 4050 is what I had planned on being the final outcome of the entire project, price wise. I was hoping to have this sub for around $1400, not just the amp hehe..


I think the PLX3402 will be what I'm going for. I'll keep this thread updated.

Either one of those would be fine choices.

Quote:
I'm gonna have to convince the parents now..I'm gonna have to convince the parents now..

I thought you made all your money being a DJ? You have to run your purchases by them first?

Quote:
I can play it as loud as I want without clipping, all the other amps clipped heavily.


Don't buy a driver of that quality and then skimp on the amp.

Listen to Jeff when he says this. He was clipping an XTI4000 and an EP2500, but the RMX4050HD didn't. There is a reason why.