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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
75ft HDMI used -> http://www.firefold.com/75ft-hdmi-cable-extender-3d


So the back story. A buddy of a buddy asked me to wire up his living room for in wall surround, put his tv over his fireplace and hide all his AV equipment in a closet like I did at my house as well as network the house he was having built. My closet to TV run only needed 25ft cables and I had no problems. His on the other hand was 60+ ft so I picked up 2 of the cables from the link above (one as a backup). I did test the cables, but with a computer and a computer monitor and they were working fine. So I went in and wired up the house before the drywall went up. Went in this afternoon to cut in speakers and set things up and everything was going well until I turned it all on. He has an LG tv in the living room at one end of the HDMI cable and an Onkyo TX-NR626 at the other end with a PS3 and a cable box connected to it. Sound works obviously.. but no video at all =( These cables are directional and have the equalizer in the connector at the display end, which I thought was to allow for the longer runs... at least thats what I gathered from firefolds website. Anyhow, the TV recognizes the input and says "connecting" but it then fails and I just get the no signal "screen saver".


My question is, will a booster or a voltage inserter likely fix the problem or am I going to have to call the HDMI's a lost cause (and a major whoops) and run a couple more CAT6 and do HDMI over CAT6? Im an amateur, I have done a couple houses I rented, the house I now own and few friends homes.. but my 25ft run was the longest I ever did . I just went to firefold where I had ordered cables many times, saw a 75 footer and assumed it would work. Had I known about HDMI over CAT6 before I did this I would have just done it since I was running a crap load anyhow. Live and learn (the hard way sometimes). Is there any hope for these cables?
 

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High speed HDMI (passive) is only certified for up to 25'. After that it's going to be hit and miss unless you use an active cable like Redmere. For in-wall installations at that length I would have installed solid core CAT-6 (in a conduit with a pull string for future cables) and then use either a gigabit-switch or HDBase-T ( a bit more expensive). I used a 70' run of CAT-6 to a gigabit switch for my in-wall installation (conduit) and it works perfectly. And to answer your question, I doubt if any sort of "booster" will work but maybe someone eise has an idea.
 

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Any cable with a built-in equalizer is an active cable. It has active electronics that require power. All of them that don't come with a power source, with the exception of those with Redmere technology, get all their power off the 5V line of the HDMI cable. The 5V is provided by the source for a specific purpose, and not to power accessories. The source is only required to provide a limited amount of power, less than needed to power most equalizers reliably. Some sources provide more. It depends on the source device. There is also a voltage drop that gets bigger the longer the run. Redmere gets around this problem by stealing power from the sink. It works more reliably, but not always. That said, one thing to try would be to use a power insert at the sink end. But adding another equalizer will likely only make things worse.


HDMI performance depends on all the electronics, the cable, the bit rate, and the environment. Change any one of these and it is a new ball game. So your results are no surprise.


It is possible your cable was damaged at some point by static electric electricity, exceeding bend radius and pull limits, or puncture during drywalling.


There is also the issue of handshake between source and sink. Equalizers only affect the TMDS lines the audio and video are transmitted over. The other lines are passed through. It may be that the capacitance of 75' of cable is too much for the sink or source to drive and produce a signal that is in spec. If the source and the sink cannot communicate you are SOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for both of the answers. Considering that they worked on the computer, which has a couple of nvidia GTX 580's and a 1200w PSU I am really hoping it is a power issue as im guessing my PC has no problem supplying the power needed for the long run. I have found THESE "power inserter's", are there more I am not finding just to compare or possibly find one locally.


Assuming worse comes to worse and I have to just call the HDMI's a lost cause. I see there are many HDMI extenders like THESE that use a couple of CAT6 cables transmit over longer distances. That particular one says 195ft so the 65ish feet i actually need to go should be nothing. And this seems much cheaper than going the HDBaseT route like THIS that is rated for 300+ feet which seems overkill for what I need.


If it were you, what would you do? I told him what to order so if he wants to make a fuss over having to order something else and scrapping the HDMI's I am likely going to have to eat the $100 in HDMI's myself, even though I gave him an awesome price for the whole job.. but whatever. Assuming I can't find a way to make it work tomorrow I am going to have to tell him the house he is moving into on monday is not going to have a working TV, so I want to have a 100% positive solution when I tell him the bad news.
 

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Is it possible to pull CAT-6 thru? Did you put the HDMI cabling in a conduit?
 

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HDBaseT is the go to solution for long runs. It just works. There are a variety of other single and dual cable extenders. But success is hit and miss. In general, the single cable ones seem to work better, probably because more a bit more engineering talent is required to make them work at all.

Here is more than you probably ever wanted to know about extenders.
 

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Not sure how 'I'm an Amateur' and 'I gave him an awesome price' stack up - if it were my house I'd be assuming you had relevant experience, insurance, understanding of local building regs, product knowledge etc if I were paying you for the job!


HDMI Cable - I'd be asking your supplier to show me the High Speed certificate for the cable!


HDMI test - a PC is generally not a good test unless you know for sure it will apply HDCP.


AVR + Active HDMI Cable - more often than not these are not a good combination due to HDCP and EDID issues.


Have you tried another Source (BD, Settop etc) direct to the Display via the Active Cable?


Joe
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand  /t/1521655/long-hdmi-whoops/0_20#post_24461083


Not sure how 'I'm an Amateur' and 'I gave him an awesome price' stack up - if it were my house I'd be assuming you had relevant experience, insurance, understanding of local building regs, product knowledge etc if I were paying you for the job!

I'm glad somebody else brought that point up. I thought about mentioning it but.......
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"Not sure how 'I'm an Amateur' and 'I gave him an awesome price' stack up - if it were my house I'd be assuming you had relevant experience, insurance, understanding of local building regs, product knowledge etc if I were paying you for the job!"



its actually quite easy to "stack up". This is a friend of a friend, ie. not my friend. He could have paid "the pros", but he was being cheap. So that's where we came in, and im not "working" for free. I actually hate crawling around houses. Buying all the AV equipment and supplies himself and paying us for our time has cost him almost half of what he was quoted by the pros, and the guy that I have helping me is an electrician so building codes and regs were followed. I can't argue product knowledge though haha.. obviously failed with that as far as the HDMI go. ANYHOW. If only one HDMI is messed up out of the whole job and about 50 wire runs we did I consider that no big deal as I can easily pull more cable. I was just wanting to know the best route to go.


The bit about computers being a bad test due to no HDCP makes sense... wont ever make that mistake again.


I am going to give him his options and push him towards HDBT... Already have 1 CAT6 ran for possible future smart TV's so that would be the easiest thing for me as well.
 

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Probably a bit late, but as it appears you are resigned to fix your problem with alternate cabling... but did you try other resolutions with the "clients" equipment (ie. not your PC) along with turning off things like "deep color" along with ensuring that his configuration works with short cabling (ie. move things closer together). You might just have some "poor settings" holding you up.
 

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While HDBaseT (with Ethernet) is the solution if the HDMI is truly not working, I keep hearing issues time and time again about Onkyo products not behaving properly. I would try to go directly from the source to the display and see if that resolves anything. Since active cables pull power from the source, there are different sources which will provide different results. Obviously, the use of a active HDMI cable was not the way to go and instead a couple of cat-6 cables should have been run along with a 22AWG HDMI cable from Monoprice which I have yet to see fail, even at that distance.


It seems you have the cable in place to correct the issue, but I agree with budwich in that you certainly haven't exhausted your current cabling solutions yet, and should play a bit more with the HDMI cables which were already run.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks for everyones time who posted. First this was a firefold cable and is only 26awg, not the 22awg monster from monoprice which I read many good reviews for. I did try going directly from the PS3 -> TV and CableDVR -> TV and all of them did the same thing. Once turned on the TV would see it (HDMI1) as a source but when you selected the source it would say "connecting" for 10-15 seconds and then fail. I hooked my computer up to it yesterday and it worked right away just as it did in my test before I installed them. So I assume it HAS to be the HDCP handshake that is failing or the 5v out from the hdmi port on my computer is much stronger than the Onkyo, PS3 or cable box and is properly powering the "equalizer" at the display end of the cable. I don't want him to have difficulties and I would rather not have to keep going over to try and solve problems. So today I went and talked to some of the pros in town and picked up a Vanco VPW-280572 from them which is what they use and swear by. It's not HDBaseT but does only require a single CAT5e/6 wire which I already have run so I don't have to run anymore. His two front L/R in wall speakers got held up and wont be here til tomorrow so I will go and setup the Vanco parts and put in his last 2 speakers tomorrow and hopefully be done!


Learned way more than I ever thought I needed to know about HDMI cables through this little endeavor.. Ive done this a few times for myself and helped some friends do it at their houses with no problems... figures the first time I try to do it as a side job to make a little extra $$ it goes wrong =) oh well I learned a few things and the guy has been super cool about it. We also did an in wall "smart panel" box below the shelving in the closet that holds his AV equipment. All of the homes cable coax goes in and is split out from there. All of the houses CAT6 wiring go to it and holds his cable/phone modem and wifi router. Ill snag some pics and post em up once we are done.


Here are some pics of my AV closet. Simple yet clean and effective.


 

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That's great. Sounds like it may work out after all. Sometimes education is painful but the long term gain is worth it.
 
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