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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now now...I know this is a touchy subject for many, but for us individuals who haven't gone Hi-Def yet, I think it's only fair that we look into models with the new digital interface. Can anyone help? Any Info would be great!


thanks!


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Chuck
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·

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My understanding from recent articles is that Sony has officially endorsed and standardized on the less draconian 1394/5C copy protection. Warner also agreed to endorse this standard. The other major studios have not announced, but behind the scenes still push for the DVI/HDCP possibility, but seem to be losing ground to the overwelming battle with the manufacturers and the public. The 'defections' by Sony and Warner have some saying (in the printed articles) that the other studios won't have a lot of choice when the revenue starts prsenting itself (as in the DVD case). 1394/5c seems to be gaining the momentum presently, but it's a long road ahead!


ken
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the replies!


DIZZMAN, I assume the regisitered models are DVI equipped? (eg. Infocus lists 9 models and Sony lists none). Also, what else can you tell me (and others) about DVI technonlgy? In a nutshell, how does it work? Is it better than analog?


2 reasons I originally posted this thread:


1) I'd like to get my hands on a projector next Fall, and given the circumstances, I'll probably buy used.


2) I'd like to know if it's okay to recommend FPs, RPTVs, and direct-views w/o DVI ports


Chuck


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Hi Chuck,

I think I may not have explained that the scheme to require displays to use the DVI interface with HDCP, require more than just a DVI port. From what I understand, HDCP is integrated into the system software. Meaning that it's not enough to buy a projector with a DVI port. You would need one that was also integrated with HDCP at the factory and from what I understand, there are no projectors with it for sale.
 

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Chuck,


The reason that the electronics manufacturers are so quiet about DVI/HDCP hardware is that the first one who pokes his head out to announce a product will be the focus of anger.


Officially, JVC was the first to announce their intentions to announce support for DVI/HDCP, and the plan was to include the copy protection encryption in their D-Ahlia DTV RPTVs.


But the anger was swift, and many stated an intent to boycott all JVC products. Later JVC re-evaluated their product statement stating that the display would have whichever common digital copy-protection technology that had been accepted.


Sony and Mitsubishi have always been supporters (and founders) of 5C/Firewire copy protection technologies.


And the last contender has been the cable companies and Circuit City (again?!?) for their DFAST encryption.


None of these encryption technologies are compatible with one another, and none are compatible with the current RGB/Y-PbPr analog DTV connection standards, which have been in place for years, and would be made useless apon the adoption of digital encryption connection tecnologies.


Also, the moment a new manufacturer formally releases any digitally encrypted product is the day that the first class action lawsuits are filed.


This is because unless the manufacturers provide a technology to adapt current HDTV compliant displays with the copy protection enabled DTV decoders, all of the current 500,000 DTV displays (not counting millions of monitors and FPTVs) will be rendered obsolete for DTV viewing.


So sorry Chuck, but even if I knew particular display products that supported DVI/HDCP, or 5C/Firewire, or DFAST encryption technologies, I would only recommend these as products to avoid like the plague. Just like I had suggested that DIVX was a scam, and would ultimately fail.


No one has any guarantees of compatibility with any other standard, or today's standards, and so unless there is some future device designed to be a Rosetta stone to decode all 5 connection types, 3-4 of them will be obsolete, and useless.


As Larry mentioned, DVI and Firewire are existing established computer technology standards, but it's the HDCP, 5C, DFAST encryption that makes them wholly incompatible to every DTV product out today.


-Dean.
 

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Dean - Nice synopsis. Please keep that in a file ready somewhere, lest the conspirators forget our resolve.



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Originally posted by Dean McManis:


Also, the moment a new manufacturer formally releases any digitally encrypted product is the day that the first class action lawsuits are filed.


This is because unless the manufacturers provide a technology to adapt current HDTV compliant displays with the copy protection enabled DTV decoders, all of the current 500,000 DTV displays (not counting millions of monitors and FPTVs) will be rendered obsolete for DTV viewing.


QUOTE]


The HDTV subset of DTV viewing would be rendered obsolete, but no one is advocating total DTV viewing elimination for any of the competing schemes. The only mitigating difference this makes is that displays not advertised as HDTV capable, but only digital would not generally be included in the class action suit.


ken
 

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This is a partial list
http://www.ddwg.org/app/search/products/by_category


The issue in finding displays that way is more in the fact that the manufacturers are not entirely sure what it is. I teach classes about how DVI works, and i have to keep telling manufacturers about it and how it really works, and what they are doing wrong in their implementation. I would not worry about it to much as there will undoubtedly be DVI to RGB convertors in the near future.
 

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Chuck,

I don't think there has been any formal announcement of any hardware with DVI and HDCP. For this announcement to have any positives at all, we would have to see along with it, the announcement of the software that would be displayed on this hardware. I haven't read anything about the software in the last few months. All I heard was rumors that Fox has a warehouse full of blockbuster titles on Hi-Def VHS tape.


By the way, DVI is just an input port, whereas HDCP is an anti copy scheme, carried out via encrypted software. It's the draconian HDCP that needs to be rationalized somehow by the studios and electronics manufacturers. I wonder why they're taking such a low profile? I'm sure all the interested parties are very concerned about being caught in another DivX fiasco. I wonder what Sony plans on doing, since they are both a hardware giant and a studio (Columbia Tri-Star).
 

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Ken,


If the switchover is made from analog output connections from DSS recievers to encrypted digital connections, that's it for all DTV reception via DSS.


Then broadcast DTV will be pressured to follow and add encryption as well.


The plan so far for digital encryption IS to exclude all DTV material from analog connections, and therefore from computers, and the internet. So there will probably be no backward compatibility for any analog connections.

This includes 480p SDTV along with HDTV.


As far as any lawsuit goes, it's entirely speculative. But if the advertisements and equipment manuals promised that the TVs would display 480p (SDTV) and 1080i (HDTV), and the manufacturers then change the connection standards afterwards so that none of their earlier "DTV compliant" displays will work with broadcast and DSS DTV material anymore.


Then there should be some compensation for all us early adpoters who were told that HDTV through analog connections was the standard for all DTV for many years to come. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/redface.gif


-Dean.
 

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Dean-

My understanding is that the MPAA and the studios have agreed with the asssertion that although technically all digital signals could be blocked, this approach hurts even them, since 480 resolution is available today whether in analog or digital.


All of the encryption schemes include provisions for downgrading the resolution from HD to 480 for this reason. In all of the plans proposed thus far, only HD signals would cause a downgrade to 480 and then passed through as an analog 480 for viewing. This would be the case even if your device was not encryption compliant. Since all of the display devices today are analog input, it doesn't seem like this scheme would eliminate all dtv viewing. In fact, it wouldn't eliminate any dtv viewing, just downgrades the higher resolution so you're only viewing a 'DVD' quality picture.


Further, any 480 (or less) digital broadcasts would be passed through the encryption, convertable back to analog by the set-top device, the TV, or any other device. Their assertion (at least in printed form) seems to be that it's the high resolution copying they are addressing. DVD's pervasiveness (and satellite) already precludes a solution to prevent copying at the 480 resolution, albeit converted from analog to MPEG2, commonly performed by any computer on the market.


Am I misinformed on this? Or are you saying they have actually changed position and are now disallowing all resolutions to be output via analog as well as any future digital ports? If so, this is even more serious, since every DVD player sold to date would also be obsolete, not being able to output to these new encrypted display devices. Maybe I've got it all wrong - I wouldn't doubt that for a second!



thanks for the clarification


ken




[This message has been edited by kenliles (edited 06-07-2001).]
 

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As far as the original questions about DVI... Is the quality better? Maybe, Most likely yes, Sometimes it will be a wash.


THe big advantage is that the internal Pixel Map processor in a Digital Display device is bypassed. THere is no D/A in the computer and then no A/D in the projector. So the image is theoretically perfect. There is no adjusting of the display device, because most of the adjustments are rendered obsolete. This can be good or bad...


Most of the displays i have looked at look a little better on DVI, but the main thing is that there are no adjustments required to make it look as good.


Read this for more info...
http://www.extron.com/download/files...ectdigital.pdf
 

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My VT540 was sold to me on the premise that it is capable of displaying HDTV. Neither 480i nor 480p is HDTV. The specifications in the user manual and marketing collateral even make this distinction. If they attempt to revoke this contract I will sue - individually or as part of a class.



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Right On! If I can't display HD content at HD resolutions, I'm there. Even the G11 literature refers to full signal digital television.


ken


[This message has been edited by kenliles (edited 06-07-2001).]
 

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I think it'll be interesting to see if manufacturers change their wording, based on potential future anti copy schemes, like "will work with existing HDTV standards", if they haven't done that already.
 

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I'm wondering if an encrypted DVI port can also be used for non-encrypted data????


the new JVC dila RPTV has a DVI port and it would be nice if that is availbe for computer use....
 

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Ken,


My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the MPAA's plan is to control the DTV media through the hardware, but that the media itself would be encrypted.


So DISH's next DTV compliant DSS controller that replaces the 6000 series already will have the DVI/HDCP decoding circuitry built-in, and potentially all of the 1080i material/movies would be encoded with DVI/HDCP encryption.


Anyone without the de-encryption circuitry would only be able to see the regular 480i version. As far as I've seen, there hasn't really been any 480p SDTV programming released via DSS. There are DSS decoders that upconvert regular 480i NTSC material to 480p or 1080i, but that's not natively any higher resolution than 480i NTSC material.


I don't see a simple solution. the MPAA wants all movies released in 480i or encrypted 1080i format. So if they get what they want, no one will see any movies in higher native resolution than 480i, and they will have to have DVI/HDCP, 5C/Firewire, or DFAST compliant equipment to view higher resolution material.


And if they are able to push the equipment manufacturers to produce digital copy-protect equipment, it will be the equipment manufacturers that will face the lawsuits, not the MPAA.


-Dean.
 

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Quote:
...it will be the equipment manufacturers that will face the lawsuits, not the MPAA.
Complicity?



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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean McManis:
Anyone without the de-encryption circuitry would only be able to see the regular 480i version. As far as I've seen, there hasn't really been any 480p SDTV programming released via DSS. There are DSS decoders that upconvert regular 480i NTSC material to 480p or 1080i, but that's not natively any higher resolution than 480i NTSC material.


I don't see a simple solution. the MPAA wants all movies released in 480i or encrypted 1080i format. So if they get what they want, no one will see any movies in higher native resolution than 480i, and they will have to have DVI/HDCP, 5C/Firewire, or DFAST compliant equipment to view higher resolution material.
As I understand it, the DVI/HDCP spec only applies to digital outs, which mean that if the successor to the Dish 6000 receiver were to contain a DVI/HDCP out, it would also contain analog outs for 720p/1080i.


The MPAA really fears unencrypted digital copies. Though I'm sure they'd like to restrict analog outs as well (hey, they can be digitized, though with some work), consumers and manufacturers are so opposed to this that everything I've heard leads me to believe that they'll concede on allowing analog outs.


It just doesn't make sense to implement a plan that obsoletes all existing hardware. That'd be suicide. (Which may well be exactly what the MPAA wants for HD, but that's another discussion...)

 
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